why not breed with fem'd seed?

[guest123]

"Doc, what happens when you use colchicine on breeder plants (and are successful), then breed those offspring back to typical cannabis plants?".

They worked well (as we originally said) see Marbled White image.. she's a fine fem. x regular strain,, (wish we had more seeds left)

Doc,

Sigh, VX was asking you what the outcome of colchicine induced polyploid (what you were thinking was GM just because those wos clowns said so) mating is with regular diploid stock. You are answering fem x reg questions that nobody asked and are already quite well known.

You seem to be having a hard time keeping up there Doc, along with many others. It seems to me that this -and only this- is the reason that "this is an old debate" as you say....

 

[VanXant]

old debate; new bies

gotta keep it fresh. short-term memory problems abound.

 

[kopite]

lol, good old 169, would you prefer Bos & Caligari's work?

Nah that books too expensive at the min, i've read a few chapters though.... (in true scouse style i'll have to get my mitts on it...)

That's what I was thinking, kind of a twist on bulk population method. The goal being to locate highly desirable mothers that are nearly homozygous as early as is possible - conceivably as early as the S1 gen, the F3 (S2) more likely. Then as you point out above (I think?) we could if we desired create/breed the type of males folks believe are so elusive from those plants as well via the backcross.

yes thats how I was looking at it... I also have a twisted idea for an all female line and all male...

VX was asking you what the outcome of colchicine induced polyploid

I'm led to believe X-ray would be better or glutamine..... well after X-ray was suggested I put it to test, think I over did it as they sprouted but died shortly after.... guess it would take alot of practice to get the dosage right..... sadly i don't exactly have open access to an X-ray.....

anyway i've digressed

gotta keep it fresh. short-term memory problems abound.

lol


Kopite

 

[pounds]

i heard that it is not good to breed with fem'd seed,can someone please tell me why?and explain it to me like i'm 5 years old!

just do it nobody will know if you dont tell them! and lots already have bred with femmed seeds and hermie prone plants ! You will be in good company!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Look at my first quote's answer for this. You select for intersexual genes, which is bad. And you loose your males, so either you have to reintroduce them via backcrossing or you breed forth with fem's only, which exacerbates the hermi-problem.

See, this is the sort of thing I have talked about...Clovenhoof, you have not stated why the hermi problem gets exacerbated using stressed pollen.
You are simply making the assumption that it exacerbates hermies.
You also make the assumption that selecting for intersexual genes is bad.
And you also make the assumption that you have all the answers.
I suggest you take in a bit more of what is being stated here.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Lots more damage has been done to cannabis genetic lines by regular sexing, than stressing ever has caused.
And the damage cause to the lines were caused by the poor selections of both. IMO unless someone has something tangible to offer up, I can't see it any other way. There is no evidence at all, none...save for the minute amount of anecdotes, that states that there is a problem with further genetic lines by using stressed fem pollen.

There is absolutely nothing I have seen that states that the chances of hermies being present in stressed progeny are greater than when using regular breeding methods.
In fact, IMO quite the opposite is true. I can damn sure tell you when I have two true female plants...and I can only tell you speculatively about the male.

A horticultural advancement that the naysayers, albiet them a tight bunch of good people, have absolutely no way of dissing. Not with any sort of proof positive backup.

 

[lost in a sea]

hermie genes arent my problem with breeding with femmed girls. hermi genes just need progressively breeding away from in any project, no matter what other techniques are employed.

all the male chromosomes that you would want may be completely returned in the offspring of a femmed girl x male cross. but there will be no other initial male alleles in the mother, the femmed girl, to add to the variability of the genetic information added by your male, so the male side of the gene pool gets cheated out of its chance to mix its alleles.

how much of that initial farther's genetic information, that you cannot access when you breed from your femmed beans, is responsible for the genotypes and phenos that you would want for your own line ??????????...it may just be alot.

all breeders keep the dads, as well as moms, so you want all the possible male genetic information you can from that original daddy, whose genes everyone here, who wants to breed from a femmed girl, are so happy to go without.

the operant word here is: why not "breed" with femmed plants. if your breeding from something your aim is hopefully to either refine existing traits into a strain, or to combine the traits of two strains into a more preferable combination of alleles, that you can select through the progeny of, to obtain an ideal point between the two diverging lines. if you want the future progeny, of any girl, to maintain all the structure/density/height/terpene profiles/high, etc etc...... of that initial special girl, then you need to gain and maintain the full compliment of male and female genes from the parents of the special mother, in the progeny of your breeding population, for that all important, future selection and refinement.

we may not select for males at all, in our grand and omnipotent scheme of things, because we cannot and do not bother to read the male phenos and begin to learn how to select males from a population, knowing, based on the phenos we can see, that they will add benificial alleles to the selected mother/s .

 

[DocLeaf]

The only way to really test is to make your own seeds, grow them, and record the results.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Doc, with all due respect....I seriously don't think the work that one breeder could do would be a drop in the bucket as to what would be needed for a study. Anecdotal evidence, although pretty strong stuff when it's right in front of you, in the grand scheme it is not what is needed to figure this thing out. Too many variables that cannot be answered for by simple human sense selection.

lost...although you waxed a good one..you are still doing nothing more than assuming there is information the male carries that is crucial to the perpetuation of a healthy line.
You have nothing more than your speculation and words to back up your theory.
Many sharper folks than you or I have mentioned the possibility of this being true, but the wise of them know it is still speculation. And the only evidence they have of this is from their selections and observations. Such as SamS, he feels his theory may be true from what he saw when breeding with feral hemp. But he still states his theory is speculation.

 

[kopite]

From hoosier

lost...although you waxed a good one..you are still doing nothing more than assuming there is information the male carries that is crucial to the perpetuation of a healthy line.

agreed most peoples beliefs seem to be based on no facts with regards to males just a feeling... including SamS

People that think that males contribute nothing to females are not correct at all.
A cross between a hemp male and a skunk #1 will be halfway between the Skunk and the hemp in potency, as well as the smells from the terpenoids will express both parents. This is for sure. I could find little differences if the hemp male or female was used or if the Skunk #1 male or female was used the F1 hemp/Skunk#1 or the Skunk#1/hemp were virtually the same.
I have no proof but I do suspect that males well may carry genetic info not carried by females, if this is true then maybe these genes will be lost in all female lines that are not using males at all. Lets hope not.

this is why I'm keen on learning more about a all male line....

 

[DocLeaf]

Doc, with all due respect....I seriously don't think the work that one breeder could do would be a drop in the bucket as to what would be needed for a study.

(^^ this is double speak buddy ^^)

Too many variables that cannot be answered for by simple human sense selection.

The "breeder scene" today ranges from professional gene banks (like GBT),, nutrient companies (like Hy-pro),, co-operatives (like Nirvana) ,, entrepreneurs (like GHSco),, medi breeders (like Growdoc Seeds),, pot fiends (like Sagarmatha ),,, smaller outlets (like Karma Genetics and Big Buddha),, collectives (like the LGA),,, and individual home breeders (like yourself). Some of the BEST genetics available come from either end of the spectrum IME ,, most often than not, from the drop in the bucket

The breeder you quote,, (SAM) produced a 'true breeding' line of plant stock (Skunk #1) single handily,, using 'simple human sense selection' more than 30 years ago.

Feminized breeders should have figured out the pitfalls (if any) a long time back if this is their prerogative.. like we say ,, the only time we grow fem. lines is when testing them for pro. seed co.s And more often than not we aren't very impressed,, most plants remind us of Diesel (banana-rarma)..lol

This is an interesting debate... keep it clean/green folks

 

[lost in a sea]

Doc, with all due respect....I seriously don't think the work that one breeder could do would be a drop in the bucket as to what would be needed for a study. Anecdotal evidence, although pretty strong stuff when it's right in front of you, in the grand scheme it is not what is needed to figure this thing out. Too many variables that cannot be answered for by simple human sense selection.

lost...although you waxed a good one..you are still doing nothing more than assuming there is information the male carries that is crucial to the perpetuation of a healthy line.
You have nothing more than your speculation and words to back up your theory.
Many sharper folks than you or I have mentioned the possibility of this being true, but the wise of them know it is still speculation. And the only evidence they have of this is from their selections and observations. Such as SamS, he feels his theory may be true from what he saw when breeding with feral hemp. But he still states his theory is speculation.

i waxed a good one, eh?
theres way too much shitty attitude in here. i dont presume the worst of you for being wrong in my opinion, so please do the same.

your also speculating, that it is ok to breed with femmed girls.

i think you want all the farthers genes in your breeding project as much as the mother's, since we cant or dont learn to select males based on phenos to improve upon the mother, and we dont know exactly how beneficial it is, thats an even greater reason to always obtain all the male information possible.

if i were a big breeder i would make femmed beans, just to screw people up if they did want to, in any way refine my lines, or breed on from em. you aint getting my initial dads genetic info, so will find it very hard to obtain a girl from your subsequent generations, as good as that initial femmed mom.

i really dont care if people do make beans from a femmed girl, i just dont want their strains or genetics anywhere near me, or the gene pool in general. i follow the same priciples for breeding ganja, as any other plant species. and simply because you say the male genes are worthless because we cant select through them, doesnt make it so.

i do agree however, that the answer to this question will never come from someone in this community, since gene sequencing is the only way to begin to test any theories on this subject, and unless someone, such as a pharmaceutical company, stands to make millions, nothing gets properly tested to a statistically significant level, that can be published and accepted.

 

[VanXant]

lost in a sea,

You need to learn how meiosis works in organisms... LOOK IT UP and you will discover the folly in your theory.

hint: The haploid chromosome set from the 'dad' is no different than the haploid set that comes from a sexually reversed SISTER of the 'dad', with the exception of a Y chromosome, which does not have a homologous chromosome to meet back up with during fertilization.

There are NO genes in males that contribute EXCLUSIVELY to FEMALE PHENOTYPE.

LEARN HOW MEIOSIS WORKS!!!!!!!! then try and discount feminization. Your theory has a MAJOR flaw. I assumed you understood meiosis, but you obviously do not.

 

[kopite]

LIAS,

i follow the same priciples for breeding ganja, as any other plant species. and simply because you say the male genes are worthless because we cant select through them, doesnt make it so.

The method or selfing is common in plant breeding its the cannabis breeders who are behind.... I could use orchids as such an example

i do agree however, that the answer to this question will never come from someone in this community, since gene sequencing is the only way to begin to test any theories on this subject, and unless someone, such as a pharmaceutical company, stands to make millions, nothing gets properly tested to a statistically significant level, that can be published and accepted.

I wouldn't be so sure

i think you want all the farthers genes in your breeding project as much as the mother's, since we cant or dont learn to select males based on phenos to improve upon the mother, and we dont know exactly how beneficial it is, thats an even greater reason to always obtain all the male information possible.

Well theres one breeder that has been selecting males for 5 years by reversing them, and carrying out tests on them....

Kopite

 

[DocLeaf]

The method or selfing is common in plant breeding its the cannabis breeders who are behind.... I could use orchids as such an example

I could use the fem. cucumbers we grew out a few years back as an example. They didn't make any male flowers! Which made them USELESS for breeding! Had we dusted them with male pollen from a regular plant there was no guarantee that the seeds produced wouldn't be selfed.

Part of codex alimentarius is to force growers/farmers into signing a seasonal seed contract (total control). A botanical Babylon system,, with no option of producing your own seed stocks thereafter.

Now if you, and you, and you what to follow and fall with them,, like sheep that the shepherd took down the wrong road,, then fire fall. But cannabis culture should be wiser than to be beguiled like that.

i really dont care if people do make beans from a femmed girl, i just dont want their strains or genetics anywhere near me, or the gene pool in general. i follow the same priciples for breeding ganja, as any other plant species.

I'm really in that crew ^^^ with the true erbalists !!!

Ask about in hood ,, the fam-a-lama is still sowing peace n love

 

[hoosierdaddy]

most often than not, from the drop in the bucket

You are talking about "luck", not a controlled study situation.

i waxed a good one, eh?
theres way too much shitty attitude in here. i dont presume the worst of you for being wrong in my opinion, so please do the same.

How could you possibly see that as being the worst shitty attitude I could have? I simply called you on your speculation....nothing more. If I were to be shitty and show you my worst, it would be obvious.
And like others who have trouble following along debates, without getting their panties in a wad, you seem to put words in place of what others really said.
For example,

and simply because you say the male genes are worthless because we cant select through them, doesnt make it so.

I never said anything about the male being worthless. Try to stay on point and stick to facts. Seems speculation is your main catalyst. Try facts for a change.

 

[kopite]

I could use the fem. cucumbers we grew out a few years back as an example. They didn't make any male flowers! Which made them USELESS for breeding! Had we dusted them with male pollen from a regular plant there was no guarantee that the seeds produced wouldn't be selfed.

again I could also use cucumbers

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2008/0244785.html

again looking at a cucumber...

The inheritance of parthenocarpy in cucumber is conditioned by an incomplete dominant gene P. In the homozygous condition PP produces parthenocarpic fruits early, with the first developing generally by the fifth node. Heterozygous Pp plants produce parthenocarpic fruits later than homozygous plants and fewer in number. The homozygous recessive pp produces no parthenocarpic fruits.
Trapping of pistillate flowers was effective in identifying homozygous PP plants but failed in accurately identifying heterozygous plants. Screened cages or field isolation of gynoecious lines are efficient means of accurately identifying all parthenocarpic plants.

1968 - L. M. Pike and C. E. Peterson

albeit thats applied to seedless cucumber etc

Selfing is a valuble tool......

Part of codex alimentarius is to force growers/farmers into signing a seasonal seed contract (total control). A botanical Babylon system,, with no option of producing your own seed stocks thereafter.

I've heard the big pharma comps like the Codex..... anyway it doesn't force you its a voluntury thing is it not ? its just that its recognised by the WTO, the main issue is vitamins vs drugs with the Codex...

Now if you, and you, and you what to follow and fall with them,, like sheep that the shepherd took down the wrong road,, then fire fall. But cannabis culture should be wiser than to be beguiled like that.

well I like to make my own informed decisions based on facts...

and again I say selfing(& feminization) is a valuble tool....

but kinda feel this is going round in circles.... like in the old national lampoons european vacution when chavy chase is stuck going round the roundabout just going look kids big ben over and over

i follow the same priciples for breeding ganja, as any other plant species.

then you would regard selfing(& feminization) as a valuble tool

Kopite

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Seems many are worried about the traits that males may possibly carry that the females don't...or are less responsible for. Imagine that one of those traits be the hermaphrodite trait? If I use speculation, it only stands to reason that the male would be the responsible party for the hermie gene.
Chew on that....

 

[lost in a sea]

sorry vanxant but i do fully understand meiosis.

a femmed girl,

has an x chromosome from her mother and an x from the dad, which comes from his mother.

to further refine the strain, you will need male pollen containing the mommas X chromosome to hit with your girls, if you want an easy life anyway, unless you keep selfing girls, which isnt refining more maintaining.

without a sibling male from a pack of beans to breed with a favourite girl (because you have femmed beans) to further refine the alleles seen in that femmed girl with succesive generations. you will have to introduce a new male from a different gene pool, with his own x chromsome to muddle everything up, but only in the female progeny, however since these are hybrids, the females in this generation will have the new males X chromosome, and not be breeding back to the original female.

you obviously dont get any males in a pack of femmed beans, so to further work the line of the femmed girl, you would need to either pick through a generation made from the femmed girl x a new male, to find a male with that original mothers x chromosome, to hit either a clone of the femmed momma, or a fav girl from the F1's made from the femmed mother, to try to get a similar mix of alleles to the original father x mother cross that made the seed that, that femmed girl came from.

its really easy to bring in any new male, from any gene pool and cross it with the femmed momma, it just adds a new x chromosome to compete with the moms X chromosomes , but only in the girls!..... the males, from that generation, can only retain one of thier mothers X chromosomes, so you could take these males and cross them back to their mother, and none of that new males X chromosome can be in the progeny, so the girls and the males from this generation, can only carry the original femmed girls X chromosomes.

if you want to cross a femmed girl with a male from a completely different gene pool or strain, to bring in his new x chromosome, then everything i have said, does not apply to it, because you want that new males x chromosome in the female progeny.

i want regular beans because i know i have males in that 10 pack, or whatever, that carry mother's X and, obviously and unimportantly, his y chromosomes, so i can make F2's and have loads of fun refining somebody elses work to my own desires.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

The topic is not "Perpetuate cannabis using only femmed seed lines".

The question is if there is a problem using femmed seeds to breed with. And nobody can tell me why I need the male involved and what the problem actually is if he is not.