why not breed with fem'd seed?

[DocLeaf]

What are your thoughts on why you would not want to perpetuate a line from femmed seeds? What would/could possibly be the problem, in laymans terms?

peace dude,, nah beef (one love) :friends: we all learning

in lay-wo-mans terms,, then the hermaphrodites might not show up for a few generations yet,, so a bunch of breeders might start using the latest fad fem. seedlines as a parent plants now,, and only later will new growers inherit a hermy base of genetic stock as a result... (just like we did with the lines from reg. Thai parents used in Holland during the 1990s,, from 1980's over-in-bred landrace stock,, responsible for most herm-lines today EU sides).

The main reason pro. breeders dont use fem. lines as parent stock is because they don't produce male breeding plants... why waste time with fem lines when the pursuit for most breeders is finding nice male plants to work with?

Female clone-drone-roam-foam-onlys are ten a penny about my ends! Good breeding males on the other-hand are like chickens belly-buttons!! (rick will get that metaphor,, keep it yiddish bro) :wink:

in laymans lingo,, fem. lines dont give pollen,, unless they herm!

this is no reason not to use fem.s as parents for seeds to grow and smoke

peace n love

 

[DocLeaf]

If someone started a thread entitled "Why breed with feminized seed lines?" Then would the general reaction / opinion on the forum differ? This is 'perhaps' the next question we must ask :wink:

Pitch in all,, this is an interesting discussion

keep it green

 

[McSnappler]

we are currently testing feminized auto-flowering strains.. lmfao (never thought we see the day),, inquisitiveness can make growers do strange things :wink:

Femmed autoflowers with good quality end product would probably be the most commercially viable seeds to make right now. If I were starting a seedbank for pure profit only, fem autos would be my focus! (I'm not, though, so they're not).

The concept of having seeds that flower and sex themselves is really tempting for the average Joe who just wants some free bud without the "hassle".

 

[englishrick]

in laymans lingo,, fem. lines dont give pollen,, unless they herm!

i might be wrong ,,

but imo ,manipulating hormones to change expreshion, is different from hermi expreshion

 

[kopite]

from DL

The main reason pro. breeders dont use fem. lines as parent stock is because they don't produce male breeding plants... why waste time with fem lines when the pursuit for most breeders is finding nice male plants to work with?

if the breeder is looking for a specific plant within a selfed line the pollen donor is just that, a donor you can then breed back to 99% of the chosen plants desirable characters

also if you have a selfed male line of the same genotype could this not be used on the selfed female line ?

from Cf

It's common ignorance around here is more like it. DJ's lines are so intensely inbred that to say that they are a source of genetic diversity is a laugh and a half. Breeders use his lines effectively because they often contain plants prepotent in their desirable traits

I agree with that, dj's lines do not need a lot doing with them they are in effect a short cut albeit a good one. (that said I am still finding enough variation if enough numbers are used)

" the most useful measure of homozygosity is the inbreeding coefficient, F. This coefficient takes a value near zero in most large random-mating populations, and the coefficient increases toward unity under sustained genetic assortive mating. Self-fertilization (one individual in each generation in each family) leads to very rapid increases in homozygosity. Starting with a heterozygote (F=0.50), F takes the values 0.75, 0.875, 0.9375, 0.9688, 0.9844, 0.9922, ... in successive generations of selfing, thus exceeding 0.90 in the third generation. Under continued mating of 2 individuals per family (full sibs) each generation, F is not expected to exceed 0.90 until the eighth generation. With continued mating of 4 individuals per family (double first cousins), F is not expected to exceed 0.90 until the seventeenth generation and rates of increase in F with 8 individuals per family (quadruple second cousins) and 16 individuals per family (octuple third cousins) are much slower yet. The rate of increase in F is so slow with more than 16 mating individuals per family per generation that such matings are of essentially no consequence in concentrating favorable alleles in selection programs in outcrossing species. It is therefore not at all surprising that breeders of plant species nearly always choose schemes featuring very close inbreeding. Selfing schemes (one parent/generation) are by far the most common in breeding outcrossing plants, and the usual goal is to develop numerous highly homozygous lines that are first evaluated by top crossing to identify lines with good general combining ability, followed by testing specific combinations of pairs of lines to identify the very few pairs that have the potential to produce truly excellent single-cross hybrids. "

hmmm 169 again lol..

IYO would you use the selfing tool in an f1 population and then go down a bulk population route ?

IMO there is nothing wrong with a selfed line that has good GCA

 

[englishrick]

"page 169 again,,,"

i love you Kopite,,,

 

[DocLeaf]

Sounds heavy,, we like to let plants do as nature intended in the garden were possible .. peace out

 

[englishrick]

imo, preservation of pure-lines is 1 thing,,,evoloution of lines is another topic all together,,,,nature has given us many things,,,evoloution can go in many directions due to enviroment,

the way in witch we peserve, that witch we want, devides us, devishion is good imo

evoloution is a funny thing,,

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks for coming and giving us your take on this Doc, if anybody is going to try this then i agree that we should certainly proceed with caution...

actually i already have some seeds forming on my fem Bb - crossed with geurilla gold.

 

[englishrick]

doc has a good ethics,,,its imposible to fault him,,,,,

i personly think all fem seeds should stay in the hands of breeders an NOT Jo public

 

[kopite]

Sounds heavy,, we like to let plants do as nature intended in the garden were possible .. peace out

what sounds heavy ????

if you like to do as nature intended stick them in a field do no selecting and see where you get....

 

[VerdantGreen]

the whole reason why there are so many fem seeds on the market is because there is a huge demand for them from the public. some people like convenience.

personally i dont buy fem seeds any more because i want males too, but when i was growing in my greenhouse and i had 3 haze plants that were huge by august and still not shown sex - i had trained them and spent loads of time on them - i took some cuts to sex them and they were all males. thats when i decided to buy some fem seeds.

V.

 

[guest123]

Hi Kopite,

lol, good old 169, would you prefer Bos & Caligari's work?

That's what I was thinking, kind of a twist on bulk population method. The goal being to locate highly desirable mothers that are nearly homozygous as early as is possible - conceivably as early as the S1 gen, the F3 (S2) more likely. Then as you point out above (I think?) we could if we desired create/breed the type of males folks believe are so elusive from those plants as well via the backcross.

Doc,

I very much doubt that anything you're eating in your garden was bred via natural selection. Breeders manipulate gene pools, they bypass natural mating systems/ built-in breeding devices that nature has designed for plants. It's what plant breeders do, get with the program

 

[jonkanoo]

.

 

[resin_lung]

But what about the part of the OP's question that said explain like I was 5 years old!

 

[lost in a sea]

Sceptics (pls loose the negative vibes) see post #41 ,, The progeny was fat,, his hands are long ,, the smoke he wished he had more off.lol The seeds were weedy (only a few grew) , which could have been due to early harvesting. Otherwise,, lets dispel some myths,,

fem. seeds CAN usually be used for direct breeding,, but its NOT something most wish to perpetuate in lineage,, that's all we is saying

we are currently testing feminized auto-flowering strains.. lmfao (never thought we see the day),, inquisitiveness can make growers do strange things :wink:

btw,, i n i nah hating on cats using fem. seeds as mothers,, c'est la vie,, just pls do it mindfully ,, and tell the growers you share them with the lineage

peace n flowers all

peace dude,, nah beef (one love) :friends: we all learning

in lay-wo-mans terms,, then the hermaphrodites might not show up for a few generations yet,, so a bunch of breeders might start using the latest fad fem. seedlines as a parent plants now,, and only later will new growers inherit a hermy base of genetic stock as a result... (just like we did with the lines from reg. Thai parents used in Holland during the 1990s,, from 1980's over-in-bred landrace stock,, responsible for most herm-lines today EU sides).

The main reason pro. breeders dont use fem. lines as parent stock is because they don't produce male breeding plants... why waste time with fem lines when the pursuit for most breeders is finding nice male plants to work with?

Female clone-drone-roam-foam-onlys are ten a penny about my ends! Good breeding males on the other-hand are like chickens belly-buttons!! (rick will get that metaphor,, keep it yiddish bro) :wink:

in laymans lingo,, fem. lines dont give pollen,, unless they herm!

this is no reason not to use fem.s as parents for seeds to grow and smoke

peace n love

that is exactly what i was trying to say.

im sorry i wasnt very polite, but ive already run into cannafriend before and my first encounter was pritty similar to this one, nothing constructive from his end in anyway and generally an angry troll like approach.

 

[guest123]

LIAS,

Yes, it was very similar,

I came into a thread to find you there, blowing mud from your mouth in a thread you started to tell everybody how it is with your "100% free advice", and folks were gettin what they were paying for...

good questions, very good. Anything selfed will compramise the DNA totally,

As for those selfed beans you got, its always hard to tell but the odds (of intersexed plants) are greatly increased, one problem is that hermies can lack parts of neccissary chromosomes, and that can criple the plant
LIAS

LOL, ^^^^^ that's where our beef started, and here you are again. Except this time you are scrambling like mad to edit and insert what little you just learned about population genetics - whatever man.

Doc, unlike you, has been a gentleman, but his suppositions, "exactly what you are trying to say", are highly flawed.

Again, under selfing, unwanted recessives are brought to the surface and quickly dealt with/eliminated. The chances that "hermaphrodites might not show up for a few generations yet" are therefore greatly diminished under selfing, compared to the type of mating you guys are trying to argue is superior. Do you understand what I am saying? What he is saying, the exact opposite is true.

Furthermore, we absolutely can produce males from these lines, prepotent males - the type of males that you folks are thinking are like chickens belly-buttons are only elusive to those who don't understand how to produce them and/or where to look for them.

I have laid out the whys and the hows as far as constructive input, but clearly it's all just going right over your head, and you remain lost in a sea of your own mud

 

[DocLeaf]

Doc,

I very much doubt that anything you're eating in your garden was bred via natural selection. Breeders manipulate gene pools, they bypass natural mating systems/ built-in breeding devices that nature has designed for plants. It's what plant breeders do, get with the program

That's where are you are wrong. You dont know me!

I cultivate Burdock,, which is a wild cultigen. The seeds were collected and planted outside to help sustain another wild population of burdock. We eat the roots. In the past we have managed nettles, species of wild grass, erbs, and wild fruits with the same method/intention.

fritillary seed is an organic seed collective working mainly with a base of heirloom and/or landrace / ibl food stock! As already stated ,,, we help test feminized ganja seeds for several established cannabis breeders - but these plants are isolated and play no part in our long-term breeding.

I n I am the program!

kopite : hopefully the above clarifies my position. i've studied some branches of botany at the highest level ,, but it wasn't for me,, since i'm not empirically minded. (hence "this is heavy" comment canna-dude)

We each choose our own path in horticulture based on what challenges us,, the road i'm currently walking is an "organic" one ,, so the artificial feminization of a dioecious species doesn't really turn me on. It just interests us.

Btw I didn't saying anything was superior. :wink:

Peace out all

 

[guest123]

"The seeds were collected and planted outside to help"

You entered the realm of artificial selection there Doc.

No cucumbers? No wheat? No corn? No cultivars of any kind in your diet? Yes? Then you support the type of breeding being discussed here, that is to say, certainly way beyond the realm of what nature intended - all plant breeding by the hand of man is.

No big deal to me, but that's how it is man, tryna understand why it seems to be a big deal for others is all.. Folks are free to draw the line in the sand where they choose obviously, but many a hippie naturalists will be eating their salads tonight with cucumbers bred via silvernitrate or gibberellic acid, oh, the irony

A brief review of the built-in natural breeding devices of plants and how breeders work around them to obtain improved cultivars that we all grow and/or certainly eat (um, bread?) quickly reveals the hypocrisy often surrounding this subject.

 

[DocLeaf]

Now they grow wild again

Genetically modified crops are NOT a good thing cannafriend!!! (you can quote us on that!)

Neither are your theories quantified or tested (yet) with cannabis ,, whereas our observations have already been recorded in the garden. The majority of fem. lines available produce male/abnormal flowers and little in the way of vigor :wink:

The new hybrid fem. lines available seem interesting... perhaps they grow better?

Anyhow,, semantics and hair-splitting isn't my thing,, so hope you have fun,, peace out