Wanna Ask The Old Farts A Question?

[HempKat]

Like the title says, I think I may have figured it out (As always though, emphasis is on "I may"). When I transplanted the clones I got they were already pretty big. I got them from a good friend while I was extremely busy at work, house sitting, and had family in town so my mind wasn't all there. I transplanted them into their pots and watered them and then three days later started feeding with a regular strength mixture of EJ Grow and Bloom. The EJ bottle said to use Bloom during veg as as well as flower. I think I mentioned this in one of my first posts (may have been a different forum) but I forgot to change my timer from the last grow and so I immediately went into 12/12. The browning of some of the leaves started progressed rapidly after the feedings (a total of 3 feedings of 1 tbsp. per gallon before I stopped) and so I stopped and went to water only. I saw a picture of a plant with a twisted shredded type leaf that was from pH problems on another site and so I grabbed a PH test kit and found the PH to be low in some but not all. After all the back and forth on here I'm pretty sure that my main problem is I fried the little ladies by fertilizing to soon causing them to lockup and not stretch as much which was compounded by screwing up the timer and losing the veg time. (Could the plants not sucking up the nutrients due to lockout alter my PH?) From what I gather this would explain the lack of growth in the smaller ones and certainly the lack of dry soil. Of the 7 I have two of them are roughly a foot tall and the others are 2.5 to 3 feet tall. They are showing decent size buds for all the stress I've been putting them through so I think I can save some of them but I'm having trouble deciding what the best course of action is. Should I wait it out until they dry and then water with a hydrogen peroxide mixture? Or do I need to get air to the roots ASAP since they have been sitting in a very saturated soil for a couple weeks? I've read about spraying fertilizer directly on the leaves. Would that just make things worse or allow the plant to get needed nutes? Should I flush immediately then water with hydrogen peroxide mixture or will this just drown them even more? Many thanks Hempkat and HoosierDaddy. I have to say that even though this isn't going as well as I hoped, the learning process is pretty damn fun and it will be exciting when I get it down. Thanks again!

I wouldn't bother with foliar feeding. Also to answer your question nutes trapped in the soil due to nute lockout is essentially that salt buildup hoosierdaddy is talking about and yes it will alter ph. If a salt build up is present it's important to flush it out as you're fixing things like it being waterlogged or the ph being off. If you don't, once the plant can eat again it'll get hit with too hot a dose of nutrients and cause you more problems.

At this point I'd worry less about trying to feed them and more about getting the watering issues straight. Foliar feeding I think can get some nutrients to the plant when it's suffering from lock out but there's a down side. The plant can only consume so much, if you feed up top it'll feed less down below which will slow things down from drying out. Plus plants aren't really meant to feed that way, they can but not as efficiently because that's not how they were designed to feed on nutrients.

 

[HempKat]

on the eother hand, flushing with hydrogen peroxide will kill all bebeficial bacteria and flora in the soil...ya gotta give this some thought

Given the length of time this has been going on I'm guessing the bio herd in his soil has already been damaged or destroyed.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

on the eother hand, flushing with hydrogen peroxide will kill all bebeficial bacteria and flora in the soil...ya gotta give this some thought

I know that is the statement that gets repeated on the internet ad infinitum... but I have to respectfully disagree with you, boo.

Yes, h2o2 will act as an antibacterial due to it's oxygenating action. Oxygen is the enemy of anaerobic bacterium and will devastate it. However, beneficial bacteria will mostly be of the aerobic sort, which means it feeds on oxygen, unlike it's rot smelling anaerobic cousins.

H2o2 breaks down to nothing more than water and hydrogen, and in the process an extra oxygen molecule, which is called a free radical oxygen molecule, kills bad (anaerobic) bacteria, but feeds beneficial (aerobic) bacteria.
And since h2o2 is a powerful oxygenate, it is possible to overdose to a point that the solution could kill all of the bacteria in the medium. But all things in the nutrient package need the same care, or they can bring harm to the plant.

Just using h2o2 will not kill all of the beneficial bacteria in the medium. On the contrary.

 

[boo]

hoosier, I agree with you but the average grower will use way too much and kill both bacterias so I felt the best advice at this point would be to avoid it all together...no sense in taking any more chances...

HK, thanks for the welcome bro...not seen you in a while...I am becoming a foliar nut so your mention on not using it sets me back in my seat...why for do you not advise it...I documented a solid 25% increase in trichome production, bud size, and density a few grows ago and have been hosing the girls down regularly...lossa cold aitr and fans keep the milder and fungus away...

 

[Gold123]

Someone posted this web site on using H2O2, if you follow the chart you won't have any problems. This is a great reference. I suggest printing a copy to have on hand.
Chart
http://www.using-hydrogen-peroxide.com/gardening-with-hydrogen-peroxide.html

Read about how to use h2o2 here
http://www.using-hydrogen-peroxide.com/hydrogen-peroxide-in-gardening.html

 

[boo]

excellent post gold, printed and filed...thanks

 

[noproblempablo]

My advise was for plants that are waterlogged. The initial flushing (they are already wet...how much more waterlogged do you think they can become?) will help to wash away any excess salts and stagnant crap, and provide fresh water than has some oxygen in it.
Hitting it with h2o2 right after than will increase the oxygen available at the roots and will normally start pulling the plant out of it's distress.
This should have been done immediately not days later.

I have read varying things on how much to flush. Some say 2 gallons water per gallon of soil some say 3. Is more water better? Should I flush then water with H202 or flush with an H202 solution?

 

[noproblempablo]

Someone posted this web site on using H2O2, if you follow the chart you won't have any problems. This is a great reference. I suggest printing a copy to have on hand.
Chart
http://www.using-hydrogen-peroxide.com/gardening-with-hydrogen-peroxide.html

Read about how to use h2o2 here
http://www.using-hydrogen-peroxide.com/hydrogen-peroxide-in-gardening.html

Does nute lockout count as sick plants? Should I spray with an H202 solution or just stick to watering with one? Thanks for the chart!

 

[noproblempablo]

I wouldn't bother with foliar feeding. Also to answer your question nutes trapped in the soil due to nute lockout is essentially that salt buildup hoosierdaddy is talking about and yes it will alter ph. If a salt build up is present it's important to flush it out as you're fixing things like it being waterlogged or the ph being off. If you don't, once the plant can eat again it'll get hit with too hot a dose of nutrients and cause you more problems.

At this point I'd worry less about trying to feed them and more about getting the watering issues straight. Foliar feeding I think can get some nutrients to the plant when it's suffering from lock out but there's a down side. The plant can only consume so much, if you feed up top it'll feed less down below which will slow things down from drying out. Plus plants aren't really meant to feed that way, they can but not as efficiently because that's not how they were designed to feed on nutrients.

I am going to flush tomorrow and roll from there. Thanks for all the help. Next time's going to be a big winner, I can feel it!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Too many chemical fertilizers (salts) can be a bad thing and can cause toxicity in the plant. Toxicity usually exists with an over-watering problem, as they go hand-in-hand.
When you first try to correct an over-watering/toxicity problem, the first thing you want to do is rid the medium of any salts that may have built up, as well as any sort of anaerobic bacteria or pathogens. You can do this with straight water, but be sure it is within pH range.
Whenever any problem exists, it is a good idea to flush the plant before anything else. You want a fresh clean slate, so to speak.

The amount you use is usually determined by the size of the pot. As a generality, you want to used about twice the amount of water as the pot could hold. In other words, a 2 gallon pot should get a 4 gallon flush with pH correct water, when trying to correct an ailment.

Once you have the medium flushed of built up salts and toxic materials, I suggest you immediately water until run-off with the water with 30mg/gal of 3%h2o2. Water till run-off means that you have provided the pot with the most water it can hold and the medium is totally saturated and it just starts to run out the bottom of the pot.
This treatment directly after the flush will do a couple of things..it will invigorate the root zone with much oxygen. This same oxygen will also help to rid any remaining anaerobic bacteria in the medium.
Once this is done, then the wait till the pot is light regimen begins.

Once you have done all this, and the pot is light (and you WILL know what we mean by this once you start doing it) you want to water with a fresh batch of nutrients. Experiment with the pot and pour slowly a little at a time until you just start to see water coming out the bottom, and stop.
Watering each time this way insures that you push any salts from the previous watering out.

And I suggest you only feed your nutrient solution every other watering or so. Less is better, and I am convinced...and you may find that 1/2 strength is far more economical and effective.

Many growers will do the above flush thing two or three times during the grow to insure a healthy medium, and always do this about two weeks before the plant is to be finished...and feed nothing but pH correct water from then on out!

 

[Stoner54]

Hempkat,
Thanks for the input. I origanally started the plant indoors. At about 18 inches, I moved it outdoors in it's original 5 gal pot because the weather had got nice enough. That probably added 3-4 hours of daylight in it's self. It had started to show buds inside on a 12/12 light cycle. It continues to grow well but just looks so strange that I started to wonder what was going on. I mean what have I got to lose just letting it grow. As in most cases, it's not the plant that is at fault when things get strange. Definitely not something you would glance at and think twice about it being cannabis though.

 

[goneforasmoke]

I've filled my resi with just water, left it for 24 hrs to get rid off the clorrien (not spelt correctly) and ph it to 6.3, I have a water mover in there to keep everything g nice, when I check the ph again before watering it has crept up to 6.5-6.7, I am not adding any nutes or doing anything to the water, is this right that the ph creeps up,

 

[HempKat]

hoosier, I agree with you but the average grower will use way too much and kill both bacterias so I felt the best advice at this point would be to avoid it all together...no sense in taking any more chances...

HK, thanks for the welcome bro...not seen you in a while...I am becoming a foliar nut so your mention on not using it sets me back in my seat...why for do you not advise it...I documented a solid 25% increase in trichome production, bud size, and density a few grows ago and have been hosing the girls down regularly...lossa cold aitr and fans keep the milder and fungus away...

Well I don't advise it for a number of reasons, in flower I don't advise it because of the increase risk of bud rot especially late in flower when things are swelling and air movement beneath the canopy is diminished. I'm also saying it's not the greatest idea in this case because of the circumstances this person is facing, but what applies to one does not necessarily apply to all. Also, and like I said in discussing it, plants aren't designed to take in nutrients that way, they can but it's kind of like a backup plan as far as their design. Also as I understand it leave are not able to take in any and all nutrients but rather certain ones. Like they should be able to take in nitrogen as there is nitrogen in the air.

Now as for your documented 25% increase, is that because of the product you swore by and gave credit to (top max I think?) or is it because it was delivered as a foliar application or is there another explaination altogether? I tend to think the later because while being healthy and happy and having everything it needs will allow for greater trichome production I'm doubtful it guarentees it in and of itself. Trichomes (resin) is an an environmental response by the plant. Trichomes are there to help protect things from dehydration (thru the leaves in low humidity situations not from drought and dry soil) they also help insulate against cool temps and the also provide protection from uv radiation. Lowering humidity at night, lowering temps at night (20+ degree F drop from lights on) or increasing uv radiation to the plant should result in greater trichome production if the plant is in good health and well fed.

I just finished a crop that I wanted done before summer but I ran into delays, this resulted in the flowering room being hotter then usual (night time temps seldom got below 75 degrees F. I don't do anything to influence uv radiation and I didn't try to lower humidity because the dehumidifier increases the rooms heat with it's exhaust. In this crop I had things I've grown in the winter when I can keep temps and humidity where I want and were very frosty as a result. The plants in this crop were clones from those frostier plants and yet they didn't develope anywhere near as many trichomes. Same food, same strains, same pots, soil, water, light, etc. The only difference was the temp and humidity.

 

[HempKat]

I have read varying things on how much to flush. Some say 2 gallons water per gallon of soil some say 3. Is more water better? Should I flush then water with H202 or flush with an H202 solution?

No more is not necessarily better but it's all relative to your situation. If for example you had nute lock out for a few weeks but because maybe you didn't realize it was nute lockout and you kept feeding then your soil could be quite toxic and might need more water flushed thru to get all the excess salt buildup out. In another case you might catch it right away and because there's little to no build up of excess salts, a massive flush isn't required. Generally I have found that if I use twice the amount of water I would use normally, that seems to create enough run off to get the job done.

 

[HempKat]

Does nute lockout count as sick plants? Should I spray with an H202 solution or just stick to watering with one? Thanks for the chart!

No don't spray with it, the problem you're trying to treat with it is in the roots. Spraying the plant above the ground with it will not get extra oxygen to the roots.

 

[HempKat]

Hempkat,
Thanks for the input. I origanally started the plant indoors. At about 18 inches, I moved it outdoors in it's original 5 gal pot because the weather had got nice enough. That probably added 3-4 hours of daylight in it's self. It had started to show buds inside on a 12/12 light cycle. It continues to grow well but just looks so strange that I started to wonder what was going on. I mean what have I got to lose just letting it grow. As in most cases, it's not the plant that is at fault when things get strange. Definitely not something you would glance at and think twice about it being cannabis though.

Yeah, okay, after hearing what you did, then definately the plant is revegging and given enough time those leaves will become more normal looking. All in all though you'll be fine, just keep it fed and sufficiently watered and you'll be good to go for harvest come late Sept. to early Oct. depending on where you're at and what strain it is.

 

[HempKat]

I've filled my resi with just water, left it for 24 hrs to get rid off the clorrien (not spelt correctly) and ph it to 6.3, I have a water mover in there to keep everything g nice, when I check the ph again before watering it has crept up to 6.5-6.7, I am not adding any nutes or doing anything to the water, is this right that the ph creeps up,

I don't think it's unusual. There are all sorts of variables to explain it. Most likely there were some traces of higher ph water in the system and once you started recirculating it with the mover that trace of higher ph water impacted the adjust water causing it to rise. Another likely possibility is that if the water was a lower ph and you adjusted the ph up to 6.3 then the ph up may have still been working and raised it to 6.5-6.7. The meter I use (Hanna Ph Checker) says that you only need to leave it in the solution you're testing for one minute to get a proper ph reading. If however you wait say 5 minutes you see the ph continue to adjust.

Another thing is how the adjusters themselves work. The kind I buy meant for plants say you can test after you mix well and wait one minute. In the past I tried the kind meant for fish tanks, the directions on that said to wait 15 minutes and to be sure the water is being circulated like you normally would for the fish, before you remeasure.

 

[Paco]

hempcat,
thanks alot for your advice,
I asked for your help with my dad a while a go. I approached him with you ideas and now he has become very involved in his grow and interested in growing good pot.
many thanks again.

 

[HempKat]

hempcat,
thanks alot for your advice,
I asked for your help with my dad a while a go. I approached him with you ideas and now he has become very involved in his grow and interested in growing good pot.
many thanks again.

Cool, glad to hear that things have gotten better for you.

 

[tennesseetoker]

I took three clones nine days ago and they're stems are turning purple I'm sure that there is some kind of deficiency but that's to be expected y/n and what could i do if anything to combat them? Also they haven't shown any signs of roots is this normal for not using any kind of cloning agent and just putting them in a cup with some water?