bigger yields with guano

[JackTheGrower]

big trichs on that middle bud!

i repot for the final time at the same time i put them to 12/12,or perhaps a week before. i put guano, seaweed and rock phosphate in the soil mix and then don't feed them until they start to look hungry, sometimes about halfway through ranging to never.then i use biobiz bloom, half strength perhaps every other watering.

many plants in general grow leaves when in soil rich in nutrients, you need to make them a little less comfortable to get them to flower or fruit well. tomatoes for instance set their first truss quicker if kept in a pot rather than planted out early.

I'm going to use the "you need to make them a little less comfortable to get them to flower or fruit well" as it's the Nth time someone has said that some kind of stress makes for a better yield.


About the middle picture I believe Azomite helped make them so nice.

I don't know that biobiz bloom.. doesn't require microbial action for plant uptake I am guessing.



About those leaves, yeah I get large foliage on a 14 hour day under 1k hps with that medical strain, Glad.



Also root and stalk development was excellent.

I'm the odd man with my planter box I figure.. I saw Soma's boxes and made my grow room a super Soma style box.

I just am not sure on knowing how much nutrients are used and how much is needed for a given volume of "soil." That would be some useful info.

Anyone know the amounts of nutrient uptake for cannabis? I'm concerned now that I shouldn't apply much P & K for the next season.. Oh hell i probably don't need to compost the soil after this next grow anyway.. It's probably good for at least two seasons.

From that Soy bean study residual P & K in the next season is still good. I'll perhaps just scratch some Guano in the soil and call it good.

Jack

 

[BurmeseDragon]

Anyone know the amounts of nutrient uptake for cannabis? I'm concerned now that I shouldn't apply much P & K for the next season.. Oh hell i probably don't need to compost the soil after this next grow anyway.. It's probably good for at least two seasons.

From that Soy bean study residual P & K in the next season is still good. I'll perhaps just scratch some Guano in the soil and call it good.

Jack

Ha ha ha, ya good organic hydro would never need to be flushed. Over correcting, i guess that is why there are so many isolated additives. Nothing like needing an addition, giving more than what is required. I need to read more studies, about what corn and soy put into earth. I have not been good at balance, it's so easy to overburden. I would rather lose a crop, than lose mediums. I think if people didn't over burden their soil, they wouldn't even need to compost. Not everyone can test for every addition, to see what levels are constantly. Or even see exactly what individual levels are for home made compost and teas.

 

[Microbeman]

The commercial chem industry has done an excellent job at brainwashing everyone. I sure hope my left over N doesn't tangle with my Pee or Kay. I'm outa this one.

 

[rasputin]

It's not what you feed, it's when you feed, and how much.

A plant will tell the grower what it needs, and what it does not. It's up to the grower to adjust.

Personally, I take the absolute minimalist route when I feed.

I use NO schedule, I just feed them when they're starting to ask for it, and it's that simple.

In this way, you can create starvation conditions at harvest time, allowing the nutrients to dissipate almost completely, and forcing the chlorophyll to begin to leach out of the leaves and then the buds. By harvest, my plants are dropping leaves left and right, just like in a natural autumn/FALL situation (remember to be a good surrogate Mother Nature).

My herb tastes like the plant it comes from, and NOTHING else. There's no hint of ANYTHING but the essence of the herb itself, as it should be. The reason I get these results is that my plants are allowed to starve for a week or two before harvest. The buds often have a golden/yellow hue to them when dry.

The moral of the story... Don't overfeed any plant, even in organics you can overdo it.

It all comes down to common sense. Often, the common sense thing to do takes a lot more effort, so many growers skimp on these steps thinking it won't matter. It DOES. The difference between a great grower and an average grower = effort. You just gotta do what ya gotta do, no matter what time of day it is, how sick you feel, how drunk you are or how much of a pain in the ass it is, you just gotta go get er done.

cc

QFT, albeit snipped occasionally. Some real pearls in that post. Thanks a lot CC.

 

[JackTheGrower]

The commercial chem industry has done an excellent job at brainwashing everyone. I sure hope my left over N doesn't tangle with my Pee or Kay. I'm outa this one.

I think most of the readers have a respect for your input Microbeman.

I actually am a believer in only using raw materials in my grow box.

I'm not one to go buy a bottle of "flower" or "Veg" products at all.


Jack

 

[maryjohn]

microbe is the man.

 

[VerdantGreen]

I'm going to use the "you need to make them a little less comfortable to get them to flower or fruit well" as it's the Nth time someone has said that some kind of stress makes for a better yield.

i wouldnt necessarily go as far as stress them, but certainly only give them what they look like they need - keep them lean as it were

I don't know that biobiz bloom.. doesn't require microbial action for plant uptake I am guessing.

its certified organic - probably a mixture of seaweed and molasses NPK* 2-6-3.5
very well respected and reasonably priced product in europe (im UK)



*microbeman - before you get pious at me for using npk values, please outline what system you propose should replace this internationally recognised, incredibly simple indication of showing the basic nutrient values of any fert/amendment. it may not be perfect, and it may not tell the whole story, but it works pretty well.

eg we know bonemeal is good for flower because of the high levels of phosphorous. a look at the npk value 3.5-22-0 also shows us that it would be good for flowering, so its not that misleading really.

maryjohn - im not american, but believe it or not i was aware that the native americans didnt historically have access to dumper trucks to carry their fish around.

and a note to the two of you, its great that you are really passionate about organics and have some knowledge of the science behind it, but you often come over a bit 'holier than thou' in your posts. if you want to help others learn, then you need to do a bit more teaching and a bit less preaching (just my opinion). sometimes i get the impression that you are using someones simple question as an opportunity to showcase your depth and breadth of knowledge rather than give a simple and easy answer.

organics is not only the best, but the simplest way to grow, lets not put it across as some esoteric rocket science.

V.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

VerdantGreen

Unfortunately 'certified organic' in the US has come to mean 'certified' by The Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI) which is NOT a government agency but rather a private institution.

And companies have to pay for this certification meaning that the larger the company, the more you are required to pay.

And then you have to dig through the terms 'organic' vs. 'approved for organic growing' which is another issue.

Plus they have products 'certified' by manufacturers that cannot or will not provide a MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheets) - quite a trick.

Fortunately some individual states (California, Oregon & Washington) have databases set up where you can make educated choices about which products and/or amendments you choose to use in agriculture and horticulture.

For me personally, seeing the 'OMRI' label on a product is a good indication to avoid it or at least look at their products at the databases that I mentioned.

Products found at 'indoor garden centers' are notorious by not putting the ingredients on their labels. It's pretty much a joke with esoteric terms like 'bloom enhancers' or 'carbohydrates' or 'yeasts' or my all time favorite ingredient 'enzymes'

Just a thought.

CC

 

[VerdantGreen]

hey CC, yeah i know it can be a bit of a minefield, but to reject a product just because it is called 'bloom' is also somewhat prejudiced also. regulations in europe are quite rigorous.

im a professional organic gardener and also achieve a pretty good level of self sufficiency in organic friut and veg for my family - ive only got 10 years experience which isnt a great deal when it comes to gardening, but i know what im doing with organics, i use the bottled organic bloom product as a top up if my standard soil mix doesnt quite make it through flowering because i am growing as many different strains at the moment in the same mix. also i sometimes literally get 5 minutes to water my grow (logistics are complicated with a family!) so i need something that us ready to go.

stay safe
V.

 

[Crazy Composer]

In response to a question about the signs of plant hunger, from somebody041...

First... know that your plants are happier underfed than overfed.

An underfed plant can be fed, and this will fix the problem.

An overfed plant cannot be fixed as easily.

Get my drift? Feed lightly and increase as the plant asks for more.

How do you tell when the plant is asking for more?

A well-fed plant will have just the slightest tint of red or purple on it's leaf stems (of course there are a few strains with red or purple leaf stems, so watch for those one getting even darker). If there is no red or purple at all on the leaf stems, it is likely that the plant is close to being overfed. There's a fine line between plenty of fertilizer, and too much fertilizer. Green leaf stems = plenty... so be reserved about feeding when the leaf stems are already fully green.

So, try to keep that color on the leaf stems very light, not completely green, not completely red or purple. In the middle is where I like it.

When my plants start to head toward starvation, they will ask for food by showing more red or purple in those leaf stems. So, if the color is darkening, I know the plant is asking for food, whereupon the plant gets a very light feeding, and the watching of the leaf stem color continues.

After doing this a while, you'll know what amount of fertilizer is working to stop the darkening of the red and purple colorations on the leaf stems.

Another way to judge how much food the plant has available to it is to break a leaf off and taste the juice droplet that forms at the broken end. If this juice tastes bitter, the plant is eating. If it tastes like pure water, the plant doesn't have much nutrient available to it.

This is a scalar thing. In other words, you can tell how much fertilizer is available by the bitterness of the juice. Very bitter is very well fed. Very clean, like pure water... is where you want the plants at harvest time. You don't want to harvest a plant with bitter blood coursing through its veins. This bitterness comes from dissolved salts and minerals, and so cutting the buds and drying them with these salts inside is unhealthy and will make for some terrible smoke.

The trickiest way to tell about plant nutrition takes some real experience. Smelling the resins of the plant.

Smell the resins when you KNOW the plant has plenty to eat. Then smell the same plant when you KNOW it has been flushed of nutrients. There will be a difference. This is the difference a good pot grower should be able to tell.

To a novice nose, most pot smells great. But to a truly great pot grower, the smell of the resins can tell him/her a lot about the amount of nutrient left in the plant. Get used to this difference if you really want to best tools in the intellectual toolbox for growing superb dope.

 

[somebody041]

In response to a question about the signs of plant hunger, from somebody041...

First... know that your plants are happier underfed than overfed.

An underfed plant can be fed, and this will fix the problem.

An overfed plant cannot be fixed as easily.

Get my drift? Feed lightly and increase as the plant asks for more.

How do you tell when the plant is asking for more?

A well-fed plant will have just the slightest tint of red or purple on it's leaf stems (of course there are a few strains with red or purple leaf stems, so watch for those one getting even darker). If there is no red or purple at all on the leaf stems, it is likely that the plant is close to being overfed. There's a fine line between plenty of fertilizer, and too much fertilizer. Green leaf stems = plenty... so be reserved about feeding when the leaf stems are already fully green.

So, try to keep that color on the leaf stems very light, not completely green, not completely red or purple. In the middle is where I like it.

When my plants start to head toward starvation, they will ask for food by showing more red or purple in those leaf stems. So, if the color is darkening, I know the plant is asking for food, whereupon the plant gets a very light feeding, and the watching of the leaf stem color continues.

After doing this a while, you'll know what amount of fertilizer is working to stop the darkening of the red and purple colorations on the leaf stems.

Another way to judge how much food the plant has available to it is to break a leaf off and taste the juice droplet that forms at the broken end. If this juice tastes bitter, the plant is eating. If it tastes like pure water, the plant doesn't have much nutrient available to it.

This is a scalar thing. In other words, you can tell how much fertilizer is available by the bitterness of the juice. Very bitter is very well fed. Very clean, like pure water... is where you want the plants at harvest time. You don't want to harvest a plant with bitter blood coursing through its veins. This bitterness comes from dissolved salts and minerals, and so cutting the buds and drying them with these salts inside is unhealthy and will make for some terrible smoke.

The trickiest way to tell about plant nutrition takes some real experience. Smelling the resins of the plant.

Smell the resins when you KNOW the plant has plenty to eat. Then smell the same plant when you KNOW it has been flushed of nutrients. There will be a difference. This is the difference a good pot grower should be able to tell.

To a novice nose, most pot smells great. But to a truly great pot grower, the smell of the resins can tell him/her a lot about the amount of nutrient left in the plant. Get used to this difference if you really want to best tools in the intellectual toolbox for growing superb dope.

wow CC... THANK YOU!

 

[maryjohn]

I'm very excited CC, you just put some new tools in my toolbox. The nose and mouth are a wonderful chemical analysis tool, and you are teaching us to put them to work. Thanks!

 

[iamgrowerman]

Bigger Yields

Bigger Yields

This is exactly the kind of thing I love about growing plants - the different brilliant ways of determining and meeting your plant's needs and getting bigger and better yields each grow.

You've got the new technological ways of doing things - brix testers, tissue samples, and so on, and you've got the old ways like CC is talking about using your own body as the lab equipment to read your plants. I find the best results when I reject nothing and embrace everything, old and new. I'm constantly striving to improve my personal bests in overall yield, quality, individual plant yield, bigger main colas - whatever you can measure things I'm always trying to do better than I have. Thanks for this advice CC, I think it will help me improve further and push my limits.

As to the original question in the thread I would suggest looking into one of the high-grade commercial organic fertilizers. If you're looking for synthetic performance with organic sources you might try Advanced Nutrients. They've got two base nutrient lines that are 100% organic (Iguana Juice and Mother Earth Super Tea). I don't know off-hand what their guano content is, but I've used Iguana Juice and I can say it was as good as any synthetic nutrient I've ever used. You may not get bigger yields than you would on a synthetic of equal quality, but it'll be closer than any other organic, I wager.

 

[neongreen]

The brix testers that iamgrowerman mentioned can be bought for under $100. Google "refractometer".

I'm thinking about trying one out, together with CC's method.

Edit to add, on that subject, does anyone know what range would work well for cannabis? The cheapest refractometers have a range of about 0-20 brix - would that be enough or would 0-50 (still fairly cheap) be better?

 

[bigherb]

cc

thx for all the great info

1luvbigherb

 

[apollonio]

that was a very good post CC! thanks a lot!

 

[maryjohn]

CC, while I think your advice is spot on, I must quibble with one point and question another.

I don't believe a happy plant is an underfed plant. The plant wants to be perfect, but stressing it suits our purposes. I'm all for unhappy plants making tasty buds.

On the sap tasting, is there any evidence from outside stoner lore that the variance in sap composition is related to harsh tasting smoke? I believe your slight purpling approach is spot on, and that the rest is not necessary.

Again I will stress that your actual reccomendations are perfect, it's the science I must question.

 

[Crazy Composer]

I can taste when a plant is feeding... based on experience, not scientific principles. I don't think I would have said an underfed plant is a happy plant... I will say that a plant that has just enough for the stage of life it's going through is a happy plant. And as for unhappy... If you look at a natural autumn season... the nitrogen availability is way, way down. Plants begin to color up naturally at this time due to many things, one of which is the unavailability of new, naturally-occurring nitrogen.

The leaves fall in autumn, and freeze in winter... then the spring thaw happens and all that leaf litter starts to decompose and release nitrogen all at once. Spring plants are given the gift of plenty of available N at this time.

In my opinion, as indoor cultivators, we need to come as close to Mother Nature's treatment of plants as possible. Starvation at the end of the growing season is natural, and expected by the plant, so I don't believe they're unhappy at this time. You can taste unhealthy stress in bud... you would never think my plants were unhappy if you tasted my herb. Results are what counts, science sometimes clouds good decision-making. When I was a young grower, science blinded me plenty. You learn to trust unexplainable instincts after a while. If the science matches, that's interesting, but not necessary.

Peace and love, peace and love,
cc

 

[maryjohn]

Rereading your post I must apologize for misquoting you, but my quibble stands: I believe it's a good idea to make life a little hard for a mj, and that is the true genius to your method.

I think you are confusing dormancy in perennials with senescence in annuals. Trees are undergoing a very different change in response to temperature changes (not the nutrient cycle), where nutrients of all kinds are withdrawn from the leaves before dormancy. In annuals, we are moving it to new growth, not withdrawing to the center. The process I'm mj is called senescence, but a big part of what makes your advice good is the stressing of the plant for as long as possible. It has less to do with nutes, and more to do with stress in general.

I don't doubt your taste buds, but I question the link between that and feeding. And I don't see how you can make the claim that it us related to any specific function or uptake. Fluctuation in water balance alone could have a huge influence, not to mention implications for vegetable gardening. I can tell you there is no bitter taste from fertilization in any crops I grow, though some herbs taste stronger in poor soil.

 

[Crazy Composer]

Look... try it yourself and see. Taste a plant that is well-fed, then taste a flushed one. No matter what science calls it, it's real, and I've been using and teaching this for years. Matter of fact, I showed someone just last night. I had one plant 1/4 through flower, well-fed, and one plant that was completely flushed and ready for harvest. I told him what to taste for, and there was simply no question about the taste difference. This is such a staple part of my growing that I feel like I'm arguing whether or not I have 10 fingers... I know I do, and I know just as assuredly that you can taste when a plant is eating well or not. Now, if you tell me you've tried it over and over again, and you couldn't see a difference, that's another thing... but I know you'll taste the difference if you had a flushed plant and an unflushed plant to taste. Try it, then tell me it doesn't work. You'll also have to convince everyone else who knows and employs this technique. It'll be hard to convince anyone any different.