Bud structure differences between hydro and soil methods?

[Country Mon]

Hey, all -

So I've been growing in both soil and hydro for many years now, but I have a question for some of you old timers. Or anyone in the know, actually. I'd like to start a discussion about this.

I have noticed a big difference in bud structure between soil grows and hydro grows when growing the same strain in both. Specifically, the hydro buds tend to be looser and more prone to "rattle snake" structure, while the soil-grown buds tend to be tighter and more dense. Yields remain nearly the same, and some strains seem to do it more than others.

This has never really bothered me because the resin production in hydro is off the map good. But I was wondering if anyone has ever figured out a method (or additive) that makes hydro buds tighten up and look more like soil-grown buds.

If you have any input on this please post it here. I realize that there will always be some variation, especially in DWC. I just want to know if this can be altered in some way.

------------------

For hydro I do recirculating DWC in 5 gallon buckets using either FloraNova bloom or GH/Lucas' formula, at 68 degrees F and 1300ppm, ph cycling between 5.4-6. My yields and quality are good, no complaints. I add Aquashield (used to be Hydroguard) and Roots Excelurator. I also run a chiller, so I'm sitting pretty and have it all dialed in.

For soil I use Supernatural Bloom Terra for the first 3 weeks and then switch over to either Pure Blend Pro for soil or FF's Tiger Bloom. I add Liquid Karma every time, and I add in some Maxicrop once or twice per run. I also add Kool Bloom from around day 32 thru day 42 for a PK boost. I flush for 10 days at the end.

All of my strains/hybrids finish in 8 weeks, other than Rez's Wonder Diesel, which goes a full 10 weeks. (Love that one!)

I get an average of about .8 to 1 gram/watt under 1000w Eye Horti bulbs. I have developed my own stable strains (Ruby Slipper, Gemstone, Triffid, and Cloud 9) and also maintain some LUI, Shaherezade, Mango, Northern Lights, and Rez's Wonder Diesel mothers.

CM

 

[turbolaser4528]

Hey, all -

So I've been growing in both soil and hydro for many years now, but I have a question for some of you old timers. Or anyone in the know, actually. I'd like to start a discussion about this.

I have noticed a big difference in bud structure between soil grows and hydro grows when growing the same strain in both. Specifically, the hydro buds tend to be looser and more prone to "rattle snake" structure, while the soil-grown buds tend to be tighter and more dense. Yields remain nearly the same, and some strains seem to do it more than others.

This has never really bothered me because the resin production in hydro is off the map good. But I was wondering if anyone has ever figured out a method (or additive) that makes hydro buds tighten up and look more like soil-grown buds.

If you have any input on this please post it here. I realize that there will always be some variation, especially in DWC. I just want to know if this can be altered in some way.

------------------

For hydro I do recirculating DWC in 5 gallon buckets using either FloraNova bloom or GH/Lucas' formula, at 68 degrees F and 1300ppm, ph cycling between 5.4-6. My yields and quality are good, no complaints. I add Aquashield (used to be Hydroguard) and Roots Excelurator. I also run a chiller, so I'm sitting pretty and have it all dialed in.

For soil I use Supernatural Bloom Terra for the first 3 weeks and then switch over to either Pure Blend Pro for soil or FF's Tiger Bloom. I add Liquid Karma every time, and I add in some Maxicrop once or twice per run. I also add Kool Bloom from around day 32 thru day 42 for a PK boost. I flush for 10 days at the end.

All of my strains/hybrids finish in 8 weeks, other than Rez's Wonder Diesel, which goes a full 10 weeks. (Love that one!)

I get an average of about .8 to 1 gram/watt under 1000w Eye Horti bulbs. I have developed my own stable strains (Ruby Slipper, Gemstone, Triffid, and Cloud 9) and also maintain some LUI, Shaherezade, Mango, Northern Lights, and Rez's Wonder Diesel mothers.

CM

bro you are sitting pretty. sounds like you know your shit. Love hearing about a grower whose got his ish dialed in.

I know what you are saying about the difference's in bud structure, soil did have tighter buds, but i got much bigger colas in DWC. I would suggest more blue light to make the buds denser, there is also a few products on the market such as Phosphoload (sp?) and Bushmaster I believe that are supposed to make the buds much denser and compact. I do not have first hand experience with this but im sure others will chime in.



Now my question for you is how do you up your nutes? do you upp the ppm 100 every week or what? and im guessing you run a slightly strong nute mix, which makes the ppm drop slightly, then you top off with water to bring ppm back down and ph back up, and then replace water and nutes every 10-14 days? something like that?

sorry for all the questions I'm just having a hard time getting my plants dialed in in DWC with the lucas formula, im either not giving them enough food or burning them, ph keeps dropping at a ppm of 1024 at .7 conversion on a white widow that is 2 weeks into flower ph drops from 5.8-5.2 and ppms keep rising, any advice?


once again sorry for the rant i'm just trying get my grow dialed in like you, any pics of your setup and buds so we can figure out exactly what you mean as well? take care and be safe!

 

[Mist]

Have you tried any other brands of hydro nutrients? I have grown outdoors in soil and indoor with hydro and get nice rockhard buds indoors useing DWC. I have used Ionic for man years with great results. I also use general hydroponics KoolBloom and that really makes the buds nice and dense. So maybe you might want to try a different indoor forumula and see what happens.

Mist

 

[turbolaser4528]

Have you tried any other brands of hydro nutrients? I have grown outdoors in soil and indoor with hydro and get nice rockhard buds indoors useing DWC. I have used Ionic for man years with great results. I also use general hydroponics KoolBloom and that really makes the buds nice and dense. So maybe you might want to try a different indoor forumula and see what happens.

Mist

Lights closer to the plants will help also, and strain, so will co2.

 

[dongle69]

Soil or hydro, doesn't matter...
Tight nugs all around.

 

[Country Mon]

Soil or hydro, doesn't matter if you know what you are doing.
Tight nugs all around.

Pffft.

Dude, I've run more than 50 cycles in both. And I've seen some of the "advice" you give people here. Not impressed. Get over yourself. If you think there is no structural difference between hydro and soil buds, you are a fucking moron. Just sayin'. Other people may listen to your bullshit and kiss your ass around here, but don't expect me to. If you don't have anything useful to contribute maybe you should just STFU.

CM

 

[dongle69]

Sorry that you feel that it wasn't useful information, but I get tight nugs in soil and hydro.
Call me a moron by I don't have the problems that you have.
You should post some pics and info and maybe someone can help diagnose what you are doing wrong.
Best of luck!

 

[Country Mon]

Sorry that you feel that it wasn't useful information, but I get tight nugs in soil and hydro.
Call me a moron by I don't have the problems that you have.
You should post some pics and info and maybe someone can help diagnose what you are doing wrong.
Best of luck!

Dude, it wasn't "useful information", it was nothing more than condescending bullshit. I'm not "doing anything wrong", I'm trying to find new ways to adjust bud structure. A gram a watt is doing it wrong?

If you don't get the "problem" that I do, what the hell are you chiming in here for? You obviously have nothing to contribute. You seem to do a lot of this "I'm so much smarter than you" B.S. in these forums. Like I said: not impressed.

It may come as a shock to you, but some of us are more concerned with finding and developing new techniques (like STS, using paclobutrazol, etcetera) than walking around with our dicks in our hands one-upping other growers.

 

[Country Mon]

Have you tried any other brands of hydro nutrients? I have grown outdoors in soil and indoor with hydro and get nice rockhard buds indoors useing DWC. I have used Ionic for man years with great results. I also use general hydroponics KoolBloom and that really makes the buds nice and dense. So maybe you might want to try a different indoor forumula and see what happens.

Mist

Thanks for the response.

I have tried many other nute types over the years, but have had great results with the GH line. I get great quality, yields and resin, but some strains seem to "rattlesnake" more in hydro. I was mainly wondering if anyone has worked with any additives to adjust this. I do use Kool Bloom, great stuff.

Many of my strains look very similar in both soil and hydro. I'm referring to the ones that don't.

CM

 

[Wait...What?]

It has been my experience that bud tightness is more a function of light rather than nutrition, but the two are inter-related. (light and nutrition)

 

[dongle69]

Dude, it wasn't "useful information", it was nothing more than condescending bullshit......blah blah blah

Well, I don't have a dick, so my hands are free.
You asked for input.
My input was that my bud structures are the same in soil and hydro.
Best of luck in your new techniques.

 

[Country Mon]

It has been my experience that bud tightness is more a function of light rather than nutrition, but the two are inter-related. (light and nutrition)

I agree. I'm running 1000s, I give them a ton of light. Thanks for the post.

CM

 

[Rockster]

PGR's,plant growth regulators will tighten those buds up although I dunno why you would actually want to?

The Australian hydro scene is very big on PGR's and they are very contentious chemicals,getting pulled off the shelves here and there but some Ozzie commercial growers think it's good to knock out buds like rocks.

A load of arse in my book.

 

[Country Mon]

Well, I don't have a dick, so my hands are free.
You asked for input.
My input was that my bud structures are the same in soil and hydro.
Best of luck in your new techniques.

No. I asked people "in the know" if they knew of any additives or techniques that might boost tightness/reduce "rattlesnake" structure in some strains.

You didn't, and obviously don't. hell, you don't even see a difference. But you thought you might slip in a dumb zinger about feeling 'more experienced' anyway. Are you surprised that I called you on it? I'm here to learn and share what I've learned, not one-up people in their own threads. I guess I get a bit pissy when people do that.

 

[dongle69]

I'm not trying to "one up" you in any way, nor did I ever state anything about being more experienced.
I'm not even sure what you are "calling me" on.
I will suggest this:
1 bong hit
1 blanket
1 sunny, grassy area
Lie there for a while and relax.
Come back and post some pics of your different bud structures so people can see what you are seeing.
Then suggestions can be made more accurately as to what you can alter to get what you want.
Again, I wish you luck.

 

[One Love 731]

Silly

Silly

I will suggest this:
1 bong hit
1 blanket
1 sunny, grassy area
Lie there for a while and relax.
Come back and post some pics of your different bud structures so people can see what you are seeing.
Then suggestions can be made more accurately as to what you can alter to get what you want.
Again, I wish you luck.

Bro dongle is a fem seed, ya cant live with them, cant kill em. I've found when doing time in the pokey ya sure do miss em. You are playing right into her hand with your sour reaction. I like the thread and would also like to see some pic's and here what this wonderful community has to offer up on the subject. If you've seen my thread its obvious I still have a lot to learn and would like to do so from both of you, cant we all just get along. Karma, One Love

 

[Mist]

Ok, back to the subject at hand. Bud density!
One thing that might help is a more scientific approach. These strains that are not as dense and have "rattlesnake" type buds, what are they? Sativa dom. or Indica dom.?
It may well have to do with light, and in that I mean the cycles you are using. Sativa dom. strains mostly originate in the southern part of the northern hemisphere and Indica dom's in the northern part. So you would want to more closely simulate the conditions or their origins to get the full flowering effect of your particular strain.
We can't always just do 12/12 and expect the optimal results we want from a strain. There are some indica dom. strains that for the last 2-2 1/2 weeks of flowering I have cut the daylight time down by 1 hour increments to the point that the last 5 days or so they were only getting 4 hours of light. This produced rock hard buds in a strains that are just ok with constant 12/12.
Oh yea, Temps play a huge role in bud dendsity too. If you can keep your room in the mid to high 40's at night during flowering you will see a huge differnence in density and bud color too.

Just some things to think about.

Mist

 

[Tokin_Jo]

We ran soil for our first five years and never realized the potential we were missing in hydro. Much bigger tighter nugs has been our experience.

 

[Country Mon]

I'd like to apologize to everyone for being so reactive.

It seems like I have had my worst internet experiences on cannabis growing forums. It doesn't make sense to me; seems like growers would be the kindest and most friendly folks, but... not so much. I do appreciate those of you who are here to both share and learn. We all have a lot to learn from each other.

I took a ton of crap when I came up with my STS technique and posted it on CW, and I think I am still wary of sharing things anymore in these forums. Again, sorry for my reaction. I usually just ignore trolls.

---------------

I don't have any photos right now, but will be able to provide side-by-side comparison photos of a few different strains and their reactions in both soil and hydro in about 5 weeks. I agree with you guys that images are key here. I'll get 'em.

Mist, thanks for the post. I avoid temps that low at night because they cause condensation on the leaves and buds. This happens whenever the daytime and nighttime temps are larger than about 15 degrees f. So, My day temps run at about 80 and my nights drop to about 70.

The "rattlesnaking" doesn't seem to be really specific to either indica dom or sativa dom strains, although it stands to reason that it should. At least half of my strains don't show any major differences. I'm just curious about those that do. Also: is this specific to just DWC, or do table/drip methods do this, too?

I wouldn't really even call this a problem as much as a strange variation. I have great quality otherwise in these individuals. I think what I am trying to figure out at this point is why there would be any structural differences in any given strain grown both ways. What additives might influence this?

I have temps and light and humidity and nutes fully dialed in, have for years now. I use chillers, too. My nute regimen is one that many others have used, the Lucas formula, using either FloraNova or GH 3 part. My full scene is described fully in the original post.

My reason for starting this discussion is that I am very interested in how certain additives influence a plant's structure. I've been working extensively with paclobutrazol for almost a year now, trying to find the minimum dosage that will still stop stretch but not change anything else. I think I am almost at the ideal. I will be posting an article on this as soon as I can.

Sorry again for getting all pissy. I'll just ignore next time.

CM

 

[smurfin'herb]

Generally in my experience, straight hydro buds yield more and are more fluffy and lesser quality, soil buds are usually less yielding and tighter but and better quality, but this isnt always the case. Bud structure (as well as many other things) depends on a ton of things such as day/night humidity and temp, supplements and how they are applied, delivery system and medium, genetics, co2, light intensity and spectrum, and light cycle etc...