I'll be moving soon an getting a large upgrade in grow space so this thread peaks my interest. Up untill this point I've always just been interested in making weed but the previously mentioned space upgrade combined with my large strain collection make me think I need to take the next step and make some neat beans.
F
Four2Zero
You are definately right about that. While keepers can be found rather quickly, finding that one "elusive trait" can be very difficult. I have gone though over a 1000 f2's of Sour Bubble. and over a dozen original packs also, and have yet to duplicate this pheno, and I have not seen it duplicated yet on the internet. A very rare one indeed!!! Not sure if Sour Bubble would be considered an incross though rather than an f2.
This Sour Bubble Bx2 looks similar but Im sure you've seen this lots while going through 1000 f2s and a dozen original packs.. thought you might want to see it tho...
peace,
F2Z
having a well thought out plan (strategy) with a realistic goal when beginning a breeding project is a MUST, if you want to get started down the path that has light at the end....
what are some thoughts about also stress testing a male?
this is a topic i discussed with my partner and we agreed that testing a male will include stress tests to make sure female pistils don't show, which i think would be considered a hermaphrodite male.
what are some thoughts about also stress testing a male?
this is a topic i discussed with my partner and we agreed that testing a male will include stress tests to make sure female pistils don't show, which i think would be considered a hermaphrodite male.
I honestly can't say I have ever seen that happen.....I have always supposed a pistil means female...and if it gets balls, then a hermi. I don't think I have ever experienced it the other way around....where I have a plant growing pollen sacks FIRST, and then showing random pistils...
Anyone else on this?
C
cork144
didnt sam the skunkman post somthing about reversing males to test their smoking qualitys? im not sure i thought i read it somewhere on here months back.
Well said Brastaman.
If you want to do it right, make sure your ladder is leaning against the right wall before you get started. lol
While gems will be found in the next generation, it's alot of work, and could be a near a year or two when you finally start seeing results, depending on your level of commitment. Planning/Planning/Planning for sure.
Four2Zero
Thanks for sharing that pic. Sure looks like the one I like, and you say from BX2 huh. I only found it in BX3 original, and not in the incrosses from the same generation. Outstanding!!!
Well, dig it back up and post a link to the thread....I'd love to read it.
In fact, I'd love to find a way to make my males grow buds....
dank.Frank
Usually when I am looking for a male, I have a specific breeding strategy in mind....and usually I am looking to bring out certain traits of one plant over another. So more specifically, I look for indicators as to which genotype a male is leaning. For example, If I am crossing sativa to an indica, and my goal is to shorten the flower time, naturally I am going to select males that display tighter internodes, less stretch, fatter leaves...etc. So basically, I have a desired outcome from the cross and select accordingly based on the known / identifiable traits displayed by the male.
Once this is done, I still have to decide which males are going to be better breeders and produce stronger, more vigorous, more resistant offspring. I will often flower out a clone of each male and make note of how he responds during flowering. Did he get a stronger scent, did he tend to stretch or stay compact, how many trichs he displayed, and specifically, how dense his balls are. I am a firm believer that a male that displays more flowers in a compact area or one that grows flowers the full length of the stem in a cola like manner is going to be a better breeder than a male that shows flowers in few places or in a more spread out and less dense manner. I also look for males that show a larger flower vs. those that show a smaller flower. Another thing I think is a good display of vigor, is the amount of pollen the male actually releases. I have seen males with larger, swollen flowers, not release as much pollen as a male displaying smaller flowers. To me, it gives validity to the smaller flowered male as also being a valid and possible worthy donor. (I have multiple small isolation chambers to do this sort of thing....it really makes all the difference) Another thing I like to make note of, is WHEN a male actually begins to release pollen...and how long he takes to fully exhaust himself. I think this is a good indicator of when the out crossed female plants are going to begin fattening up and for how long the "add weight" part of flowering will last.
However, all this is done before I actually use the male for breeding. Flowering the clones of each male...gives me the ability to make a better selection before actually letting him have his way with a female...or so I believe. I honestly have never used a male, that I haven't seen flower already.
As we have all stated...this is ONLY a tool and an educated guess/hope that these signs will be beneficial in the out cross. Progeny, once again, is STILL the only proof of a good breeding male. As many people like to say, the PROOF is in the seeds!
dank.Frank
Once this is done, I still have to decide which males are going to be better breeders and produce stronger, more vigorous, more resistant offspring. I will often flower out a clone of each male and make note of how he responds during flowering. Did he get a stronger scent, did he tend to stretch or stay compact, how many trichs he displayed, and specifically, how dense his balls are. I am a firm believer that a male that displays more flowers in a compact area or one that grows flowers the full length of the stem in a cola like manner is going to be a better breeder than a male that shows flowers in few places or in a more spread out and less dense manner. I also look for males that show a larger flower vs. those that show a smaller flower. Another thing I think is a good display of vigor, is the amount of pollen the male actually releases. I have seen males with larger, swollen flowers, not release as much pollen as a male displaying smaller flowers. To me, it gives validity to the smaller flowered male as also being a valid and possible worthy donor. (I have multiple small isolation chambers to do this sort of thing....it really makes all the difference) Another thing I like to make note of, is WHEN a male actually begins to release pollen...and how long he takes to fully exhaust himself. I think this is a good indicator of when the out crossed female plants are going to begin fattening up and for how long the "add weight" part of flowering will last.
However, all this is done before I actually use the male for breeding. Flowering the clones of each male...gives me the ability to make a better selection before actually letting him have his way with a female...or so I believe. I honestly have never used a male, that I haven't seen flower already.
As we have all stated...this is ONLY a tool and an educated guess/hope that these signs will be beneficial in the out cross. Progeny, once again, is STILL the only proof of a good breeding male. As many people like to say, the PROOF is in the seeds!
dank.Frank
Last edited:
"Many breeders stop with the first cross and never realize the genetic potential of their strain. They fail to produce an F2 generation by crossing or self-pollinating F1 offspring. (chopped by Colina) Indeed, F2 hybrids might appear with more extreme characteristics than either of the P~ parents. (For example, P1 high-THC X P1 low-THC yields F1 hybrids of intermediate THC content. Selfing the F1 yields F2 hybrids, of both P1 [high and low THC] phenotypes, inter mediate F1 phenotypes, and extra-high THC as well as extra-low THC phenotypes.)"
^^^^ That is a quote from the great cannabis man RC Clarke, written some 30 years ago in Marijuana Botany.
I probably skimmed over the comments several times for a few years, then a few more years before I realized and started to experience what the man was talking about.
Experience has shown that the words hold true for most traits.
Let's take a tall, narrow leafed, late maturing, wispy budded, narrow stalked Thai plant and cross it with a short, broadleafed, early maturing, densely budded, thick stalked plant from Afghanistan.
The cross produces an F1 plant intermediate for these traits and fairly uniform. That's not at all what I want.
I want a medium height, narrow leafed, mid maturation date, densely budded, narrow stalked plant that can barely hold itself up and I want it with a cannabinoid ratio/content that will rip my head off. The F2 is where I hunt, for keepers, and for new genetic material for future breeding.
Here's the thing. VERY FEW offerings from seed banks are actually F1's in the true sense. Unfortunately, the term has gotten so screwed up and abused that it is actually more often thought of as "from the original breeder", which of course is BS. Most of these "F1's" from the original breeders are actually recombination generations already, or barely past, and hence the talk of differing phenotypes. In this case, you will find your "F2's" are actually more uniform than the breeders "F1's".
Take this to the bank. He who makes more seed with what he has and looks at larger numbers will end up the toast of the harvest festival come judging time.
Yes, keep your goals clear in breeding and be absolutely ruthless in your selection but in your heart know this - Compromises WILL likely be made before you call it a day. Where you personally decide to compromise will be a marked point in what separates you from others and their efforts. Here's hoping you don't compromise on the quality of your smoke.
^^^^ That is a quote from the great cannabis man RC Clarke, written some 30 years ago in Marijuana Botany.
I probably skimmed over the comments several times for a few years, then a few more years before I realized and started to experience what the man was talking about.
Experience has shown that the words hold true for most traits.
Let's take a tall, narrow leafed, late maturing, wispy budded, narrow stalked Thai plant and cross it with a short, broadleafed, early maturing, densely budded, thick stalked plant from Afghanistan.
The cross produces an F1 plant intermediate for these traits and fairly uniform. That's not at all what I want.
I want a medium height, narrow leafed, mid maturation date, densely budded, narrow stalked plant that can barely hold itself up and I want it with a cannabinoid ratio/content that will rip my head off. The F2 is where I hunt, for keepers, and for new genetic material for future breeding.
Here's the thing. VERY FEW offerings from seed banks are actually F1's in the true sense. Unfortunately, the term has gotten so screwed up and abused that it is actually more often thought of as "from the original breeder", which of course is BS. Most of these "F1's" from the original breeders are actually recombination generations already, or barely past, and hence the talk of differing phenotypes. In this case, you will find your "F2's" are actually more uniform than the breeders "F1's".
Take this to the bank. He who makes more seed with what he has and looks at larger numbers will end up the toast of the harvest festival come judging time.
Yes, keep your goals clear in breeding and be absolutely ruthless in your selection but in your heart know this - Compromises WILL likely be made before you call it a day. Where you personally decide to compromise will be a marked point in what separates you from others and their efforts. Here's hoping you don't compromise on the quality of your smoke.
^^^
Very true what you say about "F1" status from a breeder. I mean, if they are truly selling F1's then there would be a WHOLE lot more seeds on the market...as it takes far less time to introduce and F1 than it does to introduce something that has been worked further...It would be nice to actually know what generation a breeder's seeds are at when purchasing them!!! This almost raises a question if it is WORTH "F2"ing seeds from breeders for the purpose of finding a special pheno; perhaps they are already breed way past that point...and uniformity is already bred in.
That is something I have always thought a great deal about, actually...but still "F2" for the sake of more seeds...if nothing else.
So let's take my SDog post (#39) for an example...and let's assume I have found a brilliant Sour Diesel leaning pheno in the F2's. (my original 20 beans) I take her and breed her to a selected OG Kush leaning male, making F3's.
Now if in my F3's I find a BETTER and stronger pheno, that displays the best of both parents in a single plant...have I:
1. found a great breeding pair...and leave well enough alone
2. I have found a better breeding mother, and should now cross this mother to the chosen F2 male
3. look for a male within the F3 generation, that is also "better"
4. both, why stop looking at this point...
And in reality, I suppose this is a subjective question. I mean, if I have a specific breeding goal in mind, and I feel I have hit a point in which that goal is accomplished, it shouldn't matter how many generations I have gone in order to achieve this task. I suppose, the task then is to make a seed line that produces these intended results with more frequency...and would indicate I should find an F3 male...
Is it a bad strategy to assume that through proper selection the F3 x F3 = F4 will be better than a selected F2 x F2 generational cross?
Which is also subjective...it depends on how good the F2 and F3 selections are in the first place...
REALISTICALLY...the concept, from my perspective, is I will have MORE F3 seeds at my disposale, and as a result, will have a much larger chance at finding the exact pheno I am looking to find for breeding purposes... As you were saying, it all comes down to sheer numbers at some point. The more plants you grow and sort through...the better your chances are at getting that golden pheno.
Kind of common sense I suppose.
dank.Frank
*going to be re-reading and studying Ron Clarke's book....I want a better understanding of breeding...and what better place to look.
Very true what you say about "F1" status from a breeder. I mean, if they are truly selling F1's then there would be a WHOLE lot more seeds on the market...as it takes far less time to introduce and F1 than it does to introduce something that has been worked further...It would be nice to actually know what generation a breeder's seeds are at when purchasing them!!! This almost raises a question if it is WORTH "F2"ing seeds from breeders for the purpose of finding a special pheno; perhaps they are already breed way past that point...and uniformity is already bred in.
That is something I have always thought a great deal about, actually...but still "F2" for the sake of more seeds...if nothing else.
So let's take my SDog post (#39) for an example...and let's assume I have found a brilliant Sour Diesel leaning pheno in the F2's. (my original 20 beans) I take her and breed her to a selected OG Kush leaning male, making F3's.
Now if in my F3's I find a BETTER and stronger pheno, that displays the best of both parents in a single plant...have I:
1. found a great breeding pair...and leave well enough alone
2. I have found a better breeding mother, and should now cross this mother to the chosen F2 male
3. look for a male within the F3 generation, that is also "better"
4. both, why stop looking at this point...
And in reality, I suppose this is a subjective question. I mean, if I have a specific breeding goal in mind, and I feel I have hit a point in which that goal is accomplished, it shouldn't matter how many generations I have gone in order to achieve this task. I suppose, the task then is to make a seed line that produces these intended results with more frequency...and would indicate I should find an F3 male...
Is it a bad strategy to assume that through proper selection the F3 x F3 = F4 will be better than a selected F2 x F2 generational cross?
Which is also subjective...it depends on how good the F2 and F3 selections are in the first place...
REALISTICALLY...the concept, from my perspective, is I will have MORE F3 seeds at my disposale, and as a result, will have a much larger chance at finding the exact pheno I am looking to find for breeding purposes... As you were saying, it all comes down to sheer numbers at some point. The more plants you grow and sort through...the better your chances are at getting that golden pheno.
Kind of common sense I suppose.
dank.Frank
*going to be re-reading and studying Ron Clarke's book....I want a better understanding of breeding...and what better place to look.
C
cork144
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=99597&highlight=reversing+males
search found this, was posted by sam but it was him asking if anybody had done this before...
thought he had posted about actually doing it.
search found this, was posted by sam but it was him asking if anybody had done this before...
thought he had posted about actually doing it.
After reading the above post, it does indeed seem important to stress test males in a similar manner as you would a female. The one comment that seemed to interest me the most, is that DJ encourages the use of a male that shows pistils, since it has MORE of the female hormones in it...I can't imagine why you would want to keep any plant with intersex traits.
I also am surprised that I have never personally encountered any males that have shown intersex traits...or displayed female pistils...I wonder why that is.
THANKS big time for bringing this to my attention...I had honestly never considered this as a possibility...I now have one more necessary step in breeding....stress testing my males!!!
dank.Frank
I also am surprised that I have never personally encountered any males that have shown intersex traits...or displayed female pistils...I wonder why that is.
THANKS big time for bringing this to my attention...I had honestly never considered this as a possibility...I now have one more necessary step in breeding....stress testing my males!!!
dank.Frank
Females aren't the only ones that need to be battle tested in order to help ensure strong progeny!!!! hehehe I need to know if my strong male can handle a strong female. Wouldn't want him to be intimidated or get cold feet the first time out!!!
Wish I had my camera going. I just found a plant that showed male sacks about one week ahead of showing female hairs. Timing was really close so i am not sure if this would count but.....
I found the plant among s1 seeds of a plant that was the result of CS. Pretty much a member on here took two female plants and crossed them using CS method. I found a nice plant out of the seeds and stress tested her. She failed the heat/underwatered test and produced seeds. (No bananas tho, weird) anyways, i sprouted those seeds and found a male! However the male was ran through the gammet and he produced female pistils on the final test, the light test. <-It seems this test is a guarantee to bring out hermi's, its just a matter of degrees.
great thread!
K
kopite
with regards to an earlier post about pistils on male plant the link below shows a pic of one....
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=84236&page=3
Kopite
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=84236&page=3
Kopite
K
kopite
Cheese is not an IBL .......
kopite
Kopite...thanks for that pic...sure enough, pistils on a male plant...
I wonder if my males just don't have any stress in their lives so I have never seen any pistils, or I guess I am buying good seed stock...or maybe I am not selecting from a large enough gene pool....although, I know the latter is true, I just work with what I have...
dank.Frank
I wonder if my males just don't have any stress in their lives so I have never seen any pistils, or I guess I am buying good seed stock...or maybe I am not selecting from a large enough gene pool....although, I know the latter is true, I just work with what I have...
dank.Frank
grimweeder
Member
i thought that more recessive traits start to show through on the f3,f4 generations of seed so would it not be better to run f3,f4 lines an select from those as there should be a higher percentage of plants showing recessive traits, which tend to be the ones people want.
in regards to turnin a male female, its not physically possible, the only reason you can reverse a female plant is because they automatically have an intersexual trait for survival purposes,(your not actually changing the sex of the plant its still female) this trait isnt the opposite for male plants an doesnt exist in them so you cant reverse a male. that one pistil on a male plant doesnt really mean shit. its like gettin a single nana on a female an saying its hermi or turned male, still interesting tho but i doubt youl see one of those again in a hurry. i may try sprayin a male with cs or sts to see wot happens , prob jus get very stressed tho.
in regards to turnin a male female, its not physically possible, the only reason you can reverse a female plant is because they automatically have an intersexual trait for survival purposes,(your not actually changing the sex of the plant its still female) this trait isnt the opposite for male plants an doesnt exist in them so you cant reverse a male. that one pistil on a male plant doesnt really mean shit. its like gettin a single nana on a female an saying its hermi or turned male, still interesting tho but i doubt youl see one of those again in a hurry. i may try sprayin a male with cs or sts to see wot happens , prob jus get very stressed tho.
K
kopite
You can reverse a male !!!!!
Also the pic shows what was asked for nothing more nothing less that male plant LSD was not stressed whatsoever
Kopite
Also the pic shows what was asked for nothing more nothing less that male plant LSD was not stressed whatsoever
Kopite
K
kopite
If you follow the link cork put up you will find how to get the pistils useful for producing male seeds and believed you can produce bud like this
Kopite
Kopite
dank.frank i really think its just not that common to find males that show female pistils. i think thats how the conversation began, because it is a rare occurance.
i treat most of my males with horrible neglect and am ashamed to admit that the two males that i keep are lucky to be alive. or at least i am surprised they are still alive.....
also going back to the original post.... it may be obvious to most but i feel that selection is KEY in finding the keeper pheno, especially when dealing with limited numbers and utilizing an open pollination approach. Ultimately because numbers and experience may be limited we are guessing what combinations of traits will bring about the keeper pheno we are looking for..... testing will show tendencies and selection ?towards? goal is critical with limited numbers.
i treat most of my males with horrible neglect and am ashamed to admit that the two males that i keep are lucky to be alive. or at least i am surprised they are still alive.....
also going back to the original post.... it may be obvious to most but i feel that selection is KEY in finding the keeper pheno, especially when dealing with limited numbers and utilizing an open pollination approach. Ultimately because numbers and experience may be limited we are guessing what combinations of traits will bring about the keeper pheno we are looking for..... testing will show tendencies and selection ?towards? goal is critical with limited numbers.
