Finding the "keeper phenos"

[englishrick]

looks like a winner

1000`s of F2`s bro, thats major work......i would think you should have found something better in 1000`s

??,,,,

 

[englishrick]

was an incross or a true f2???

 

[Care Free 1]

Hi Rick,

How's life on the other side of the pond?

I am not saying I have not found better plants in the work I have done with Sour Bubble, I just have not found that rare one again yet. Here are 3 keeper SB's that my freinds loved.

 

[dank.frank]

I didn't read the entirety of this thread but the F1 is WAY WAY over-rated as far as clone hunting goes. I've read the F1 is where it's at in a few articles etc, and absolutely disagree with that. A true F1 is great for uniformity but can anybody name two lines where the F1 -an often even blend of both parents- is better than picking and choosing the extremes of the two lines in order of our own preference? I think not. Vigor (never mind that plant energy management (shape) and not cell repro rate is what most are looking for) certainly extends much deeper into inbreeding than the F1 and selected F2's will leave this uniform F1 generation in the dust. For clone hunting, I'll prefer the F2 gen over the F1 every single time. I mean it's not even close and is a no-brainer.

I would LOVE to hear your opinion more on this topic.

I think the concept you are expressing here is absolutely valid and in fact, very true. I in most cases, do prefer my F2 generation over a single F1 generation, but mainly because the plants that were selected for the F2 generation, were selected for a specific set of traits that I myself deemed to be "keeper". I think this post and all comment contained in it, MUST be keep in the perspective of a single pack of seeds...only 10 plants. It is VERY difficult and sometime impossible to make a proper F2 selection when working with such limited numbers. When selecting from 100's or 1000's of plants you really have a chance to learn what traits are common (dominant) and which traits are a bit more recessive...making it that much easier to identify a GREAT female to use as a breeder for making F2's.

I am not sure that stability is always an indicator of a "better" plant. I mean, when purchasing seeds, we ALL want a perfect, stable, copy of what we see in pictures...so in this case stability and predictability is most crucial... But at times, inbreeding, if done amongst such a small gene pool...only 10 seeds, can really result in a lesser plant in the F2 generation...if only because you one, didn't know what traits to select for...or two, didn't find the desired traits in the first place. In either one of these cases, you might be breeding a step backwards...which is why I was saying it was VERY important when working with limited numbers, to do an open pollination first and foremost. At least then, if a selected cross takes a step backwards...you still have that chance of bringing out ALL the traits you had available to you...might have to hunt for it a bit...but you KNOW they are there.

I think it really takes a very good selection of F1 parents, to make a more consistent or stable F2...in my personal experiences, the F2's always contains a better plant than the original F1...it just takes a bit longer to find it. Selection is the KEY to making good F2's in the first place...

Colina, keep talking about this topic...I value your input!



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

hmmm....sad to see this one die....not enough talk about breeding going on these days...!


dank.Frank

 

[Brastaman]

hmmm....sad to see this one die....not enough talk about breeding going on these days...!


dank.Frank

well, ive been lurking with high curiosity. not nearly enough experience to begin commenting on such a topic though.

i tend to agree with most of what youve posted Frank.

i have just begun my expedition into "breeding"<-i would hardly consider what i have done so far as breeding. Of course i have the mind that without the proper space to warrant a large population grow then "breeding" isn't really taking place. a different discussion completely.

Unfortunately i am in a similar predictament as the thread starter. I have obtain one pack of 10 seeds, as they are no longer available on the market. So my option has been limited to open pollination of all plants found in the pack, sans the obvious weak ones, i.e. runts/ones that stop growing

I am excited to filter through the F2's, in my case it might be an incross, however. I believe there are plants in the next generation that will outshine what ive found so far.

Rick brings up a good point. Say i have a pack of ssh, 10 seeds...open pollination, is this F2 generation that follows? or incross?

Could possibly outcrossing to a close relative plant to keep the line going be another solution? and then select from those.
i guess dealing with polyhybrids that are not stable is a different discussion as well.

 

[Zeinth]

$$

$$

after spending loads of money on pks...

Ive found the some newer seed companys have huge diffrences in what pheno do evolve.

when doing a hybrid more diffrent phenos will be found.

lately the best pheno with almost exact genotypic and phenotypic traits goes to....

Bushy Old Grower!!

after popping 13 beans every last one looks exact!!





as far as quality...man...that sour bubble shit is way to good.


what we all need is to go to gw pharmaceticals in canada and have them show us there experiments with all the data they got .

 

[Miss Blunted]

I'm confused now...I hear both sides and now I'm like, huh? Getting ready to start poppin' beans and my partner wants to F2 them all out. Now, I'm 50/50 with him and I don't want a bunch of extra work...I'm already sick of the 7 days a week non-stop plant care. Is this gonna be a bitch?

 

[Brastaman]

hiya miss blunted.

now this is something i can really comment on.

YES. it is a bitch. but like the one I chose to marry j/k, Love will overcome.

the most difficult part for me is keeping track of everything going on. however this is my first go at it so i'm still learning. Now if you limit yourself to a certain area and one pack of seeds it may not get too overwhelming but.....have fun and goodluck.

 

[Miss Blunted]

hiya miss blunted.

now this is something i can really comment on.

YES. it is a bitch. but like the one I chose to marry j/k, Love will overcome.

the most difficult part for me is keeping track of everything going on. however this is my first go at it so i'm still learning. Now if you limit yourself to a certain area and one pack of seeds it may not get too overwhelming but.....have fun and goodluck.

We have 15 new strains to pop.... (F*CK ME!!!), we spent too long with the ones we have, so we dropped almost 1K on the killer ones. I believe it will be one pack at a time...but I never know with "Project Man"...haha. I can imagine it being fun at 1 pack here and there...but I don't want to take on any more responsibility and I want these beans done right by. I vote NO on proposition "Cluster Fuck Bean Popping". Hahaha....thanks for the advice/support.

 

[IE2KS_KUSH]

I vote NO on proposition "Cluster Fuck Bean Popping". Hahaha....thanks for the advice/support.

Ahem...
Hey hey hey, sometimes cluster fucks just happen, a little cluster fuck never hurt anyone.

This is a great thread. Just in time, I am popping some Satori and Hashberry. I also have a Nirvana MK mum, it's not great, but it didn't herm on me like the other one, and it's better than nothing. I am sure that from what I hear the Satori and Hashberry will retire it, but in any event. Did I read that Mandala's gear is F1, and forgive me, they are supposed to have hybrid vigour? So if I breed the males to the females then I get the F2s eh? Those are where I will find the "Golden Pheno" though from what you are saying. That makes sense. Breeding is going to require alot of good tracking and labeling of stuff to say the least, but it seems like a no brainer no matter what if you are serious about growing and want to keep yourself in good seed. As I know nothing about what you are all talking about, I will conitue to read on and hunt for more info as well as follow this thread. I will sit down and shut up now.
Good thead thanks!

 

[dank.frank]

I don't really think breeding them is any more difficult that simply growing buds. I mean, the only REAL difference is you are not pulling the males. So as far as it being more work, I do think so, at least not in the sense of taking care of the plant(s).

HOWEVER....IT IS A TON MORE WORK. Simply due to the sheer numbers involved. For example. Even if you are F2'ing a 10 pack. You have all 10 plants...and say 4 clones of each. You are already up to 50 plants...Not to mention the extra space involved in keeping a male population separate from a female one. To even take it one step further, you easily go into males, and how to pick a solid male for pollen. Well, you have to make seeds and test them...so those seeds must be gone through, and all the while, keeping clones of the male around IN CASE...he is the one you want to make MORE seeds with.

The plant growing part isn't any more difficult...but the time and space and commitment it takes is MUCH greater.

Mrs. Blunted - I personally could not imagine trying to run AND breed many strains at the same time...maybe it is a space issue. I prefer to work with one thing at a time and get it exactly where and how I want it...I put all my focus there. I suppose some are just multi-task better. Once breeding was done, I wouldn't have an issue running clones from selected moms, all at once...but breeding 5 strains at once...is a daunting task in my mind. Good luck with all those projects!!!


dank.Frank

 

[cork144]

I don't really think breeding them is any more difficult that simply growing buds. I mean, the only REAL difference is you are not pulling the males. So as far as it being more work, I do think so, at least not in the sense of taking care of the plant(s).

HOWEVER....IT IS A TON MORE WORK. Simply due to the sheer numbers involved. For example. Even if you are F2'ing a 10 pack. You have all 10 plants...and say 4 clones of each. You are already up to 50 plants...Not to mention the extra space involved in keeping a male population separate from a female one. To even take it one step further, you easily go into males, and how to pick a solid male for pollen. Well, you have to make seeds and test them...so those seeds must be gone through, and all the while, keeping clones of the male around IN CASE...he is the one you want to make MORE seeds with.

The plant growing part isn't any more difficult...but the time and space and commitment it takes is MUCH greater.


dank.Frank

I agree it is alittle more work, but i dont understand the 4 clones of each realy, in the time you take clones and flower, those clones could be well established moms, so taking 2 clones, keep one in a pot under veg, Much simpler running 20 instead of 50, allthough the cloning work after will also had to be done, but extra care is part and parcell of it all,

10 moms could easerly be vegged under cfls, When it comes to growing out the f2's, then it becomes a different story, keeping clones of them and keeping tabs of whos what ect, but a well filed folder on your desktop and well labeled pots could sort that.

Maybe some infomation could be thrown into this topic about inbreeding the phenos to get them as seed stock..

Basicly my main aim of this topic was to find out whats the best way of getting nice traits in plants..

I want to find nice phenos in f2 gens of 2 different strains, create IBL's of each strain untill they both become fully established IBL's, Select say 20 females and males from each IBL, Cross one into another (gonna be a PITO) with all females and males, take note of which male was used on which female, Grow out seed stock from all 40 females, See which male and female produced the desired strain im after..

planning tomake a big yeilding critical mass IBL

And a all potancy no yeild sensi star IBL

 

[DocLeaf]

would it not be best to take the f1s and make f2s?, say buy a 10 pack of a strain, openly pollenate with the entire packet, run the seeds to try find your keeper pheno..?

No. F2's show more variation in lineage (the grandparents show through) and the hybrid vigor from the F1 is lost.

F1 Hybrids usually make for nice "keepers",, cause they have vigor/minerals within,, which when mothered are still fully expressed in the clones.

Some "keepers" come from IBL's like Cheese,, while other "keepers" are poly-hybrid,, both of which will grow smaller and slower than within the original F1 lineage.

Keepers are the plants you want to keep and perpetuate,, nothing more :wink:

Hope this helps

 

[kopite]

Well, the real JEWELS are usually found in the F1 generation, in my opinion. When you make F2's, you find the plant tend to show a lean towards one parent or the other. So one plant will lean heavily to the mother, while another will lean heavily towards the father. This is not saying that you won't find a pheno that has "mixed" attributes within the F2 generation.

F2's and beyond are where the JEWELS are found... IMO when open pollinated you get a true representaion as long as enough are grown out... hence you are seeing a full spectrum and not just thru tinted glasses....

the F1 gen is good for a vigourous plant with yield, they show uniformity (as long as the lines were Homo)... the main reason you see severe lack of vigour etc in F2 gens is because the breeder wants you to buy more beans...

F1's will typically have a sim flowering time where as F2's will vary.... F2's are were the recombination of genes is seen and the treasure hunt begins....

Kopite

 

[DocLeaf]

The plants that stand out are usually the keepers,, regardless of their generation

 

[Justa6655321]

Best thread I’ve read in a while.

I’ve been a basement breeder also. I have a mother room, a clone room, a veg room, two flowering rooms, a tent for males kept in another room way apart from the rest, a veg room for autoflowering plants, and a work room where I do all my dirty work – planting, mixing nutes etc… Lately, while I’m stoned late a night, I’ve been rethinking my entire breeding process. Not how I breed or what I’m trying to accomplish but WHY am I going through all the fucking work when there are SOOO many different varieties out there to begin with. If I cut out everything and just had a veg room and a flowering room I could grow a lot more variety and sample so many more different types every year. What am I really looking for anyway? Some days I like the sour taste other days it’s the sweet taste of mangos, whatever, it always changes. There are so many different varieties that I could grow out a different type 4 times a year and never taste the same shit! Yeah, every now and then I’ll miss something I used to have but I get over it pretty quick when I get another “keeper” in another bunch.

I’m rambling, I typically make F2s, take whatever is a mutant or keeper from that and then eventually clone and make crosses with whatever I like from something totally different. Right now, I’m vegging some deep chunk and snowdogs hoping to get something “keeper” out of them so I can then breed them to my other “keepers”. I typically look for traits like smell and color before the type of high. I have a mutant that turns almost a deep black and smells like dog shit that is my favorite. It’s unique. Just the color alone is wild. When I pull out that stuff everyone including seasoned pot veterans reaches for that like they have never seen such a unique plant. I guess, that’s why I breed to make my own “wonder plant”. I can also control the type of high a little by extending the flowering time. I know this one very well and the longer I flower the stronger deeper the high. I also found that the way it is smoked changes the high also. But I cant control smell and color and that’s what I breed for.

Enough of my rambling….Cheers

 

[dank.frank]

I agree it is alittle more work, but i dont understand the 4 clones of each realy, in the time you take clones and flower, those clones could be well established moms, so taking 2 clones, keep one in a pot under veg, Much simpler running 20 instead of 50, allthough the cloning work after will also had to be done, but extra care is part and parcell of it all,

10 moms could easerly be vegged under cfls, When it comes to growing out the f2's, then it becomes a different story, keeping clones of them and keeping tabs of whos what ect, but a well filed folder on your desktop and well labeled pots could sort that.

Maybe some infomation could be thrown into this topic about inbreeding the phenos to get them as seed stock..

Basicly my main aim of this topic was to find out whats the best way of getting nice traits in plants..

I want to find nice phenos in f2 gens of 2 different strains, create IBL's of each strain untill they both become fully established IBL's, Select say 20 females and males from each IBL, Cross one into another (gonna be a PITO) with all females and males, take note of which male was used on which female, Grow out seed stock from all 40 females, See which male and female produced the desired strain im after..

planning tomake a big yeilding critical mass IBL

And a all potancy no yeild sensi star IBL

Well, if you read my first post (#7), you'll see why I stated taking so many clones of each plant. This allows you to have more fully developed and mature (sexually and in size) plants so that you are able to make many seeds from each plant. A male that is well taken care of will produce stronger, more viable pollen in my opinion.

While it is easy to say...simply isolate each set of phenos in a cross...it is a good plan...but how do you REALLY know what to look for in each pheno? The only way to REALLY know is to see 100's of the same cross side by side. When confined to smaller numbers, you are really working with the best REPRESENTATION of the original plants...and keep in mind, you are not getting a true P1 plant...there will always be a bit of the cross in it...even if it is dominated by one particular strain of the cross. There is still that trace from the other plant in the cross.

Now you could have 2 plants, say both leaning toward one particular strain of a cross...for example, lets just say Skunk x Afghan. Both plants could be Afghan dominant and show these traits, but it doesn't necessarily mean they have the same set of traits passed on to them from the skunk. One could have inherited smell, and the other vigor. So how are you certain which one is the "keeper" female in this instance....even though they are BOTH afghan dominant...?

Once again, you find yourself in a situation to where you need to grow out MANY of the same plants side by side...to see what traits are showing up with the most frequency...and which traits you may think are special, that are in fact...common...

What you are saying is true though. You will find the F2 generation leans more towards one side or the other. And in theory, and no other reason, you should find dominant plants of each parent. THE KEY once again, is what plants you use to make your F2 in the first place. Thus a very good reason to have an open pollination session, rather than isolating a pheno, and causing a bottle neck in the line. Even if you are selecting the most desired plants from the seeds you have...you still run the risk of breeding out some recessive traits, that could be better....and more unique.

The BEST way of getting nice traits in plants...is simply by growing many of the same plant...and becoming familiar with its growth patterns, feeding habits....everything about it. Getting it "dialed in". Once you have done this...you can grow MANY of these plants, in a "dialed in" environment...that will allow you to see what plants are truly outside of the norm...

And when breeding...you need to run the same clones multiple times in your flowering room before TRULY selecting a good female. I mean, sure some people are just naturals...but I personally find it will take a run or 2 to get something PERFECTLY grown. No nute over/under feeding...no improper or un-liked training methods...right pot sizes, temperature/humidity preferences.

And we have not even talked about stress testing a plant before allowing it to be a breeding mother. (when making selections for an selected F2 vs open pollination) I mean, a plant you are going to breed with, you need to see what she can handle. This means how does she respond when not feed or over feed, under/over watered, unstable photo period, how does she respond to various pests, do light leaks ruin her, can she withstand being roughed up and moved around a bunch, or is she sensitive and delicate...all these things MUST be tested and understood. One so you know what to look for and expect with in the offspring, and two, so you know if you have decent mother plant vs. a truly great one. Also if you know her strengths and weakness, it can give you an idea of what plant would be beneficial to use in a Bx to the line as well. For a simple example, if mother "A" is a slow grower and you know this...and you have a known vigorous plant "B"...well, it might make sense to go "A" x ("A" x "B") to increase vigor...rather than simply going "A" x "A" repeatedly....


But by taking many clones...you can flower females at the same time stress test in another room or pollinate with males in another room...because remember...you still haven't selected a particular female at this point...they are still flowering for the first time. You could find that an awesome female in flower...is the mites favorite, and can't handle any light leaks at all....all before you know how good she smokes. The more factors and information you can amass in unison...the better your selections will be, and the better your resulting seeds and offspring will be.


dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

For example...my plans for JLP's SDog F2's - of which I only have 20 seeds to work with:

Naturally, my first pollination, is going to be an open pollination. That is going make them F3's. (batch 1)

For selection breeding:

I would like to find a good female example of each pheno...the SD dominant, the OG dominant, and one that is more a mix of the two. I am also hoping to find the same selection within the males...although, this is would be really lucky within only 20 seeds. I would prefer to have 50 or more...lol, but I'll work with what I've got.

Anyway...breeding strategy for the F3's will be:

1. SD dom F x OG dom M = F3's (batch 2)

2. OG dom F x SD dom M = F3's (batch 3)

For furthering the project and to see what happens:

OG dom F x OG dom M (F2) = F3 (batch 4)
SD dom F x SD dom M (F2) = F3 (batch 5)

SD dom F (F3, batch 5) X OG dom M (F3, batch 4) = SDOG F4 (batch 1)

Hopefully the SDOG F4 will be more consistent in producing a mixed pheno. Figuring you are not getting a PURE SD or OG pheno, some traits from each plant are going to carry over into the dominant lines of the F3. So although they will definitely favor one particular side of the cross..they will still have a touch of the other pheno...naturally. By crossing the dominant pheno's together and then recrossing them in the F3 generation as the original configuration was...you should see some of the recessive traits being pulled to the surface...and should, ideally, find more mixed phenos as a result. I personally think the F4 will be where I find a perfect balance of both...the question will be...with what kind of frequency will a balanced pheno show itself...

You see, there will be 5 different batches of F3 seeds made...for preservation, isolation, identification, testing...all with the hopes of finding the right combination of parents.

This is actually FINAL batches of seeds. This does not include the seeds being made from each individual male to a chosen female for progeny testing...once again...one batch of seeds for each male.

Who knows how the project will actually work, I mean, it all depends on what the plants show me and what I actually get out of those 20 seeds...but it never hurts to walk into a project with a breeding strategy in mind.

From what I am told, JLP's selection for the F2's was amazing...and the results are all ready fairly homogeneous...so, I'll just have to wait and see what the beans give me! Either way, it will be fun...and to me, it is a hobby...that has great benefits.


dank.Frank

 

[somebody041]

i just received 20 cherry pez seeds from a buddy. i was going to grow them out, keep the best male, and experiment with some crossing. i have a green crack, blue dragonite, and blue dream mom.

i don't really have anything to contribute but i found this thread extremely informative