good organic time release?

[Microbeman]

When I read threads like this I think most successful gardens happen inspite of the efforts of the gardener and not because of them. As far as bloodmeal providing available N are you saying it is already in ionic form? I have never used blood, mostly because it gives me the heeby-jeebies but where does it come from? the slaughterhouse? slopped down the collection drain? with all the other goodies? Remember; with organics there is no such thing as feeding the plant. Time-release organic fertilizer? Does that mean it is only slowly available to microbial degradation?

 

[maryjohn]

microbe, the blood meal i have used is dried pig's blood. It does indeed come from slaughterhouses, and has other applications (winemaking, for instance). Blood and bone from slaughtering animals are very valuable resources.

 

[baet]

also this is a new soil mix with steer barn chips(like chicken manure) and this is our second grow and im afraid to burn plants with 9-?-? fox farm american pride with already having the steer chips and garden compost and stuff..
should i have any problems with using american pride as a top dressing...
i think Peaceof Mind would be better, cause its all organic and thats what were aiming todo, but its only 5-5-5... fuck it, that should be fine, we can always supplement with sum liguid grow

 

[Microbeman]

microbe, the blood meal i have used is dried pig's blood. It does indeed come from slaughterhouses, and has other applications (winemaking, for instance). Blood and bone from slaughtering animals are very valuable resources.

Do your worms like it? Did you know that pigs are smart like dogs?

but its only 5-5-5

This is completely irrelevent

 

[maryjohn]

I don't give it to my worms.

Pigs are really damn smart. I almost feel bad when i bite into one.

 

[baet]

Do your worms like it? Did you know that pigs are smart like dogs?



This is completely irrelevent

why is it irrelevant? please, if you have a correction or concern expand, its helpful. it wont make me feel stupid.the only reason i bring up NPK ratio, is because the guy im growing with thinks it is vital to use the highest ratio possible for biggest plant and yield possible. i'd be happy using rainbow grow mix 5-5-2 frankly. this is my second grow, enlighten me.

 

[Doobie Nyce]

hey microbeman... i use bloodmeal because it is a by-product!
Nothing is more organic than that to me really...I dont eat meat but I feel its more respectful to the pigs overall to not see their blood go to waste. I use lots in my soil totes, and the worms are thriving. They seem to enjoy the boost the N has on microbial activity.

The 5-5-5 numbers are also kind of irrelevant, because the microbes use N to fuel their metabolic processes.

 

[Microbeman]

why is it irrelevant? please, if you have a correction or concern expand, its helpful. it wont make me feel stupid.the only reason i bring up NPK ratio, is because the guy im growing with thinks it is vital to use the highest ratio possible for biggest plant and yield possible. i'd be happy using rainbow grow mix 5-5-2 frankly. this is my second grow, enlighten me.

The reason I bang my head against the wall is because I've tried explaining that NPK ratings have nothing to do with organic or natural growing over and over and over on this forum. The NPK which is measured has extremely little to do with the nutrients sequestered in organic matter and released by microbes. For a full explanation please see; Organic Growing from a Microbial Perspective at www.microbeorganics.com Worrying about NPK is a carry over from chemical growing deeply ingrained into us.

Has someone answered my question about how blood supposedly provides available N to plants? My worms don't like blood or fat. I have several thousand pounds of them. They obviously will break it down over time but they go for non-animal foods first.

 

[maryjohn]

Has someone answered my question about how blood supposedly provides available N to plants? My worms don't like blood or fat. I have several thousand pounds of them. They obviously will break it down over time but they go for non-animal foods first.

I use blood to feed my soil, not to feed plants or worms. It's not a holdover from chemical techniques, but rather a holdover from early man. And it is a great way to keep porcine blood from polluting our waterways with excess nitrogen. Use it all.

Bone can be sourced without harming animals.

 

[Microbeman]

I use blood to feed my soil, not to feed plants or worms. It's not a holdover from chemical techniques, but rather a holdover from early man. And it is a great way to keep porcine blood from polluting our waterways with excess nitrogen. Use it all.

Bone can be sourced without harming animals.

You must have misunderstood me. Someone mentioned blood being good for N. I did not infer your use of blood as a holdover from chemical techniques. That is in reference to the NPK thing. I actually have a huge bone yard here on the farm but much prefer rock phosphate. The worm reference; I use my worms often to guide me as to what is good and not so good.

 

[maryjohn]

I wouldn't put to much stock in human interpretations of the worm's way. Worms don't reject blood so much as say "not yet".

And there is no reason not to think about NPK just because people thought about it too much for a while. I agree that there is no reason to go by the available NPK rating (required by law) on labeling, but nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorous are still important to plants, and you still want to add amendments rich in each one. we are still manipulating their environment, we are just doing it with a herd of friends.

 

[baet]

starting to get sum juicy info! loven it.
microbeman-thanks for the clear up, ive thought that before about organic NPK, because i did realize microbes feed the plants not the ammendments, thats why theres no need to flush organic.

doobie nyce-thansk for putting up with a new grower

peace!

 

[maryjohn]

not only is there no need to flush organic, it isn't possible.

From an environmental standpoint, that's a huge advantage over chem. Our waterways (the oceans in particular) are dying the death of a thousand cuts. Too many nutrients is a big culprit. The NPK from your urine (tons of each in there), any miracle grow use, and agriculture does not get filtered out before being dumped into the water supply. This contributes to prolific vegetative growth and bloom, which shades the bottom layers. So the algae at the bottom dies, and as it decomposes uses up the oxygen needed for respiration, which kills the next layer up, etc... until you get low oxygen, and even "dead zones" of anaerobic terror. Inland, there is something known as "blue babies", a potentially fatal condition caused by agricultural runoff in the drinking water.

This is why growing organic is good for the planet, and why "time release" is marginally better for the environment than straight chem. Now if you can find a way to reuse your urine instead of sending it to our waterways, we will all have a nicer day at the beach.

 

[maryjohn]

I should add: Time release salt based ferts will still kill your microherd, which turns your system (soil and plant) into a carbon emitter (assuming no use of lights), whereas an all organic grow with a healthy microherd is a carbon sink.

 

[Microbeman]

but nitrogen, potassium, and phosphorous are still important to plants, and you still want to add amendments rich in each one

This is a very misleading statement read by those unaware that NPK is sequestered in truly organic matter and undetectable (with standard testing) but released and delivered to plants via microbial interaction. So NPK ratings on these amendments people buy are meaningless. One way to tell if a compost will release a lot of N is to examine the ratio of bacteria/archaea to protozoa and bacterial feeding nematodes (& rotifers) Without protozoa (and/or nematodes) your microherd is pretty ineffectual in the microbial nutrient loop.

 

[maryjohn]

I don't see what is misleading. Failing to amend soil with ingredients rich in N P and K will result in deficiencies, no matter what kind of microbes you have. The law of conservation of matter still exists. It must come from somewhere.

I agree that testing for NPK does not give you the whole picture, but it is a way to supplement your senses and other knowledge, especially around repotting time. This does not preclude doing something stupid in reaction to your test results. But a soil system rich in microherd and nutrients will have high amounts of available NPK. It isn't all magic symbiotic relationships.

 

[Microbeman]

Time to do some reading. Tell me how you know these substances are rich in NPK??? BTW, high (tested) P inhibits mycorrhizal growth.

 

[maryjohn]

usually it's the guy claiming the world is flat who has to present evidence...

 

[Clackamas Coot]

 

[Doobie Nyce]

yeah too much P especially liquid, can piss off your fungi!

I have been getting much higher organic yields by laying off the P a bit and upping the N!