Ceramic Metal Halide (CMH)

[hoosierdaddy]

The CMH arc tube is unique to the conventional tubes you are referring to.
The issue of the arc polarity has been addressed by this invention. There is reference to the patent on the device in this thread, and you can read up on it there.

 

[rasputen]

I think he said two years with the V in the H position.
BTW...I am almost 110% positive that the V and H position bulbs are the exact same item, save for maybe some labeling. The bulb run in the H position is going to see somewhat lesser life than same conditions in V.

rasp, if I were not already convinced of the superiority of the CMH over anything else available, I would definitely have been persuaded by your short but sweet testimonial.
Many would have thrown in the towel with the first bit of bad luck, such as you had.
For what it's worth, the bulb I bought had no discolorations on the interior. (shrug)
Nice write-up.

Thanks very much HoosierDaddy,
I have been watching your posts as we seem to be in the same forums sometimes. For some reason I don't post much anymore.
I have no reason to praise the CMH other than the excellent preformance I have observed personally. I have also mentored a few growers locally and I had them go CMH and gave them homeade C99 seeds (GN03xBlueBerries)&(GN03xGN03) and they think it is SO easy to grow pot!!! They never had to grow hermi shit weed and have it taste like hay! HA! those ingrates.... Woh! I digress....a lot.

Anyway , thanks for the compliments.

I do think there is a difference in the V and the H. It took two years or so for the H to come out, and I bought my first H replacements in 2006 I think.
It could have been testing alone for the H versions but I think Philips is pretty serious about their stuff, I know the Phillips I deal with at work is bigtime ANAL competition with Siemens and they don't fuck around.

I felt my tempered glass would save in the event of failure.

Rasputen -
Much respect for sticking it out. I have been using the 400w and 250w from just months after their initial release. Now, I have not had any fail short of a couple of yrs burning in the wrong position, but do not deny that some have had a little struggle with ignition and the like. I tried to get folks on board back in my OG days. I do not post as often as I used to, but would like everyone to know that the sun can't be beat! All we can do is our best to imitate it's production. Nice looking set-up there.

Good growing to ya!!

Thank you Azeotrope,

I remember your name....but old age and good dope clouds my memory ! Ha ha

I am amazed at the reluctance some people have shown in at least trying CMH. I understand lots of people grow comercially and run 600W's or 1K's, and may have spent big bucks on digital ballasts. They might not care to change.

I think the biggest factor is the number of pure bullshit stories on the net and other places (old High Times and fake herb comes to mind) and the need for most newbies to spend that hard won cash on a tried and true HPS.
That is the ones that are not out there trying to grow with halogen work lights (a true parents nightmare!!!).:jawdrop:

As soon as I ran them I noticed a difference in every aspect of my grow and now I am growing COCO / Hydro in Botanacare Cocogro BOSS bags and I need chains to hold these girlz back from breaking my walls down ! (remember...I hyperbolize a bit)

Happy Dayz OFF to everyone and may all your stockings be filled with the DANKEST NUGGZ

 

[Azeotrope]

Yes it is, you are correct. I was mearly pointing out that they decided to spec the color temp and to shoot for similar lifespan and the engineering of the gas/metals charged in the arc tube is slightly different between Vert/Horiz and so is the internal component structure that holds the arc tube. I still have about 8 of these in the garage. 2 -250w verts, 4 - 400 horiz and 2 or 3 - 400w verts.

Along with a stupid and never used count of 3 400w Horticrappers, a 360w Horticrapper (mh to sodi conv), 1 400w Halide, 2 - 250w halides, 1- 430w SonAgro, 2 - 150w UniForm PSMH, 1 - 150w HPS and 2 - 175w Halides...... Ballasts for all as well. Boy am I a light whore or what. Currently only burning 550w in my 19cuft flower cab and 150w in veg. I think I will have to weed out on the lights.

 

[Azeotrope]

Yeah, coco and CMH. I remeber pulling 2lbs off of 6 NL5xHaze clones in 3gall pots drain to waste. I did it with ease and straight-up canna all they way. Coco is awesome for root growth and so is cmh. With all that red/far red cranking up the root and stem growth and the blues pumping the large leafs(solar panelsLOL) the potential is unreal.

 

[rasputen]

Yeah, coco and CMH. I remeber pulling 2lbs off of 6 NL5xHaze clones in 3gall pots drain to waste. I did it with ease and straight-up canna all they way. Coco is awesome for root growth and so is cmh. With all that red/far red cranking up the root and stem growth and the blues pumping the large leafs(solar panelsLOL) the potential is unreal.

AMEN BROTHER (....said the choir)

Yep...I am currently running Flora Nova drain to waste, and it dosen't get any easyer!

 

[Azeotrope]

That was under 800w cmh with another 250w in the corner sometimes over "testers".

Good luck on the FloraNova! I go on and off the straight coco. Sometimes Coco based organic mixes, sometimes straight. Nothing outyields the straight coco with as much ease. I am currently running BCuzz coco and GH. A little Synergy and some molasses now and again. Looking healthy.

 

[simba]

Heya All,

going back a page,
thats why all lamps are tested and pre burnt in by adv tech so no duds arive.
(i hear people say i got from x and it dont work..on arival.. thats because they dont preburn..)
CMH has a High Initial Failure Ratio..
(this is well document in phlips internal Knowledge Base)

if cmh survive approx 36 hours @ 12/12 it has full chance of Surviving full life.

if cmh is fired up first times for short burn ins the salts and arc tube gets pissed.. and they dont last full life.

also some just dont fire up the first time for many reasons from turning into weird glow sticks to instant Popping of seals.. ..
adv tech had a page with pics of bad lamps but its not up now..

as far as CMH arc tube and internal differences.
there is a difference between H and V.. trust me..
its not much but is there.. the Kelvin does change with either operating wrong pos.. and life and heat etc..
its more chemical makeup than material layout..



Happy Holidays. .may alll your wish's come true..

 

[Azeotrope]

I should say this on yield under cmh. I believe that it can easily compete with any same wattage bulb and out do all on an overall basis. The NL#5xHaze I had though yielded insanely, every pheno except for 1. That one produced 6-10calyxes at each node. They were about the size of a large chickpea each and powerful as hell. They were hard like steel. I should have kept cloning and breeding her.

 

[CTSV]

I should say this on yield under cmh. I believe that it can easily compete with any same wattage bulb and out do all on an overall basis. The NL#5xHaze I had though yielded insanely, every pheno except for 1. That one produced 6-10calyxes at each node. They were about the size of a large chickpea each and powerful as hell. They were hard like steel. I should have kept cloning and breeding her.

+1
quantity

quality


Also perfect for your 24 hour applications.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I think that it was indeed testing that delayed the release of a H approved bulb.
It may well be that there are two different bulb builds, but I highly doubt it.
First, the cost of an additional mfg process tends to effect bottom line.
And secondly, there is only one patent. And the abstract of the patent is based on the arc tube being able to be burned in both H and V positions with near similar polarity.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Simba, I always question, when told to trust.
You know that this was discussion was entered into last summer concerning the positioning of the tube, and the difference between the two bulbs.

Since you have not provided us with any more info on this issue since then, why is it that now we must trust you on this? Have you found out something about the construction of this bulb since we last discussed it?

I am not trying to argue, or question your information, but I still stand on that the whole just of the patent itself deals with this very issue. Am I the only one who read the patent completely?

Unless anyonme can show me otherwise, I am willing to bet that there isn't one bit of difference in the V and H bulbs at all. Now, I fully grasp the concept of how they can differ in how they burn in those positions, but that is not the issue. The issue is, are there two bulbs or one?

 

[Azeotrope]

Horizontal




side by side

 

[simba]

Hoosier,ya we are here to trade info as much as i sound harsh im just typing..

No doubt i tend to trust less when i hear "trust Me" However i think i have proven my self to Never spout any BS or Skewed Info AKA always Fact..

as far as patents go..
the only reason to patent a H and V separate in CMH is if philips didnt have the Protected idea patented .. already..

as the protected patent covers the bulb in general. both H and V
.If that makes sense why over protect an item.. (within Reason)
that's not philips statement thats my own logic..

i gotta say i never seen another bulb so directed even in the Lighting world..
its so for the greater good.. the way these forums are..

im out and about and dont have any cmh's with me.. otherwise id post comparison pics.. edit AZ has covered.. (thanks)

 

[Mackawber]

When?

When?

When the hell is some Chinese or Japanese company going to reverse engineer this shit and give us a 600 or 1000 watt monster CMH bulb?

Don't tell me that there's not a market for it.

Why can't a bunch of them get together and say "we can make it smaller, we can make it cheaper" like they usually do and produce the momma of all bulbs. I remember the Chinese making a knock off of the hortilux HPS bulb. I bought one last year. I would be all assholes and elbows to be first in line to get one.

 

[simba]

Mack,
few things..

1. we dont want a China CMH
especially since it wont be protected unless they patent infringe on Philips..
and we WANT / NEED Protected Versions. .(MH and CMH HID are dangurs in non protected CMH moreso as there is more mass to hold the heat during a rupture)

2. the SPD of the Current 600+ watt CMH units out there is NOT what we want

3. the 600+ have a super High Failure rate

4.NONE of them are Protected.. or have a HPS style. so none of them will fit in most reflectors..

the spd on them is way off way to much green/yellow exact opisate of what we want..

also cmh is getting more effeciant IE less watts used providing same or more output.. just wait a bit longer for new less than<400 units providing as much as current 400s..
really all commercial applications that i have seen switch from multi 600, 1kwers have no regrets going to multi 400w cmh
think this way more power from one source in horti is not what we or plants want.. a more uniform layout is better. (hard to explain.. )
inverse sqaure law of light comes back in.. why waste that energy..
ur plants directly under the light wont see improvemtn from current 400 cmh to a 600 cmh even if its spd is better unless both lamps where mounted at a High hight.. (400 cmh at 4 feet provides plenty of light under it) if u have bigger op then more lights thus still providing more light than a single source at distance..

a 600 cmh is blinding also.. more than a 1kw MH. its actuality dangerous to the eyes. that much power small source..

i go/come from mini ops to Comercial Greenhouses (yes green and Legit) within that Pure Sunlight G-houses ~ Suplement G-Houses ~ full Synthetic light AKA CMH, hps, mh)
i dont outfit one of them with HPS Or MH any more. Purely CMH at 250-400 watt units..
cant show the Math or specifics (to much detail to find me)
but most ops consume less overall power when switching to cmh as heat and multi lamp sources do a better job than fewer power suckers aka space heaters aka HPS../mh

 

[Mackawber]

Thanks for the explanation Simba---I understand were dealing with a new potentially (in the wrong hands) hazardous technology.

Look--I'm happy with the results with just one 400 watt CMH covering just a small 3 X 3 foot area. Very efficient lighting.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

I would have appreciated been told that there were indeed physical differences between the bulbs, as that was part of the discussion way back when.
At that time there was still question, by all of us, as if there were any physical differences. The discussion dropped off without any sort of confirmation.
Now, if the bulbs are indeed still made the way the shots Azeotrope provided, then there is definitely a physical difference.
I need to locate my packaging, but I have a 400 that was purchased for the V position, and it has the same cage holder as the one shown as H position bulb.
I'm not even sure I remember the package having any sort of identifier at all, come to think of it. I will have to find it, and I know I still have it somewhere.

Not trying to argue. Just want clarification.

 

[rabid]

I hope you find it hd. I'll use this opportunity to take the first pic with the new camera that Santa brought me (I cheated ) Label from horizontal bulb...

 

[Azeotrope]

Hoosierdaddy -

I understand buddy. I was probably of and out while that discussion went on. Anway, I'm sorry no one put this to rest sooner. There is a difference between the two in the arc tube "cage/support" and the charge in the arc tube is a very slightly different mix to provide accurate color rendition in the position designated. I would not be surprised to find that the seeminly more robust H support had not been adapted for the V. I counted last night 3 V that all look the same and 3 H that all look the same.

Good luck finding the box!

 

[hoosierdaddy]

My concern about this issue from the start was whether or not there was indeed a difference in the salts mixture, or any other aspect, in the two positions bulbs. I was wondering if I could use the one bulb I had in both positions, without compromising the bulbs integrity. I can totally understand providing different supports, but the business end of the bulb deals with the arc tube and the wire around it.

This is the first I have heard of there actually being a different recipe in the charge tubes. From what I could gather from the patent material, the design of the tube and cage eliminated the need for differing charges based on position. (shrug)