Organic Growing from a Microbial Perspective

[MrFista]

My apologies for the misquote Tim - I'm rather feverish and ill this past week possibly not the only misquote from this particular time frame and illness.

'Maturity' or 'mature' is the term I use for a niches filled and functioning ecosystem.

Like a town that has it's water power and sewerage hooked up. The dentist may not be in residence but all is functioning and capable of supporting a dentist whaen the need reaches a point high enough for action....

I also switch to analogies a lot as I'm used to a teenage audience that have the following scientific terms in their vocabulary - germs, dirt, poos.

Again, no disrespect or tangent intended, tis just how it comes out with me.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Composting

Composting

Tim

Not to belabor the point about adding rock dusts to thermo-compost piles but I wondered about adding glacial rock dust. Any thoughts?

RE: Vermicomposting

My worm bin is 4' x 8' x 4' and is about 60% filled with EWC, food and bedding in their respective layers. After the last batch of Red Wigglers that I was able to barter for, the worm bin has approximately 18 - 20 lbs. of worms.

They are eating around 9 lbs. of food per day and the bedding is full of new worms, cocoons, adults, etc. The worm bin is healthy, i.e. no bad odors, mites, flies, et al.

My question is about adding fertilizers like fish meal, fish bone meal, alfalfa meal and in particular the addition of kelp meal. Am I wasting these amendments when I add them to the worm bin or do these amendments benefit the EWC that I harvest?

Thanks for your input and your time.

CC

 

[Microbeman]

Hi CC,

First of all, the only worthwhile ingredient you mentioned to feed to your worms is alfalfa meal since it is pretty cheap. That's my take on it anyway. BUT only give your worms small amounts of alfalfa cause the nitrates can kill them. I learned this the hard way. Sometimes I feed my worms industrial wheat (like they use to make glue), with bran and 5% alfalfa.

I looked up the Hi-Crop fish hydrolysate and their process sounds good. I sent them an email but it was bounced back as not deliverable. I agree, their price is good after I priced Organic Gem at $99/5 gal.

I've posted some additional information on my website about fish hydrolysates and emulsions along with some video footage of tests run in my lab.

Salutations,
Tim

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Hi CC,

First of all, the only worthwhile ingredient you mentioned to feed to your worms is alfalfa meal since it is pretty cheap. That's my take on it anyway. BUT only give your worms small amounts of alfalfa cause the nitrates can kill them. I learned this the hard way. Sometimes I feed my worms industrial wheat (like they use to make glue), with bran and 5% alfalfa.

I looked up the Hi-Crop fish hydrolysate and their process sounds good. I sent them an email but it was bounced back as not deliverable. I agree, their price is good after I priced Organic Gem at $99/5 gal.

I've posted some additional information on my website about fish hydrolysates and emulsions along with some video footage of tests run in my lab.

Salutations,
Tim

Tim

Thanks! I'll discontinue feeding the worms the soil amendments that we use on our raised beds.

RE: Alfalfa Meal

You're right about the price - this morning it was $14.00 for 50 lbs. at the farm store.

RE: Hi-Grow Fish Fertilizer

Thanks for taking the time to look into this product. I started using it on the raised beds earlier this spring (or what we're calling this weather) as well as using it in my compost teas with good results. Glad to know that an expert feels that their product is worth considering.

I'll check out the new data at your web site. I'm sure that it will be informative as is your earlier work.

RE: Teufel Organic Compost

There is an old time commercial nursery, Teufel Nursery, which has operations in both Oregon and Washington. They've been around since 1880's or so.

Several years ago, one of the family members set up a soil company to provide the potting soils for their operations. Some of their mixes they sell to other commercial nurseries.

They also have a product, Teufel Organic Compost and this product is also packed under a couple of other names, specifically Down-To-Earth's organic compost is this product.

Are you familiar with this compost? I've been using it for 3 years in our raised beds and I feel that it's a good product at the right price ($6.00 per 3 cf.) but I'm curious if anyone has actually tested this product.

Thanks again!

CC

 

[CT Guy]

Just wanted to comment that you want to get organic alfalfa meal if possible. I've had problems in the past trying to brew teas with alfalfa or hay that had been exposed to chemicals.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Just wanted to comment that you want to get organic alfalfa meal if possible. I've had problems in the past trying to brew teas with alfalfa or hay that had been exposed to chemicals.

CT

Thanks for that heads-up. To the extent possible, all of the soil amendments that we use on our raised beds here at the 'farm' are organic, i.e. alfalfa meal, feather meal, soybean meal, et al.

The price difference is a nothing. At least at the commercial wholesales and farm stores.

CC

 

[Microbeman]

I never even looked at the bag but I doubt that the alfalfa meal we use is organically grown. I don't know if it makes much difference if you are buying the feed grade stuff at the farm supply store. I'll see what it says on the bag but I've always had good results. Of course if it has had anti-microbials added, that's another story.

 

[Dignan]

Speaking of... I noticed at the feed store the other day that the jug of molasses that they carry has a preservative in it. I buy mine at the natty foods market, but for anyone buying from a feed store, you might want to check.

Dig

 

[sophisto]

Hey Microbeman and crew,

Microbeman, have you found the reference that I was referring to in terms of phosphorous uptake in relation to fungal dominant soils?? I lent the book to a friend and he hasnt finished with it yet so, I cant pull it up myself...


Also hope it isnt to off topic...In your experience what are the major differences between using yucca and or aloe, extracts in teas ???

I understand the yucca contains sapponin's, I believe the aloe does as well????

 

[Microbeman]

Hey Microbeman and crew,

Microbeman, have you found the reference that I was referring to in terms of phosphorous uptake in relation to fungal dominant soils?? I lent the book to a friend and he hasnt finished with it yet so, I cant pull it up myself...


Also hope it isnt to off topic...In your experience what are the major differences between using yucca and or aloe, extracts in teas ???

I understand the yucca contains sapponin's, I believe the aloe does as well????

I believe the information in Jeff & Wayne's book concurs with what I have outlined about micorrhizal fungi (in more simple mode). Page; 61 and 160-164. There may be references elsewhere but I believe this is what they would mean by fungally dominated soil.

I have not used yucca nor aloe in compost tea. I would imagine the saponins would create a lot of foam. They have many derivatives apparently, from soap to steroids and birth control pills.

 

[CT Guy]

I never even looked at the bag but I doubt that the alfalfa meal we use is organically grown. I don't know if it makes much difference if you are buying the feed grade stuff at the farm supply store. I'll see what it says on the bag but I've always had good results. Of course if it has had anti-microbials added, that's another story.

The stuff I got at the local feed store must have been treated with some sort of anti-microbials (pesticide, herbicide, etc...) as I was unable to get any microbial life when I was trying to make a protist tea.

 

[Microbeman]

The stuff I got at the local feed store must have been treated with some sort of anti-microbials (pesticide, herbicide, etc...) as I was unable to get any microbial life when I was trying to make a protist tea.

And actually I should have said that it is always better to buy organic unless it is cost prohibitive.

Often feed is treated after harvest or when being bagged to prevent mold, etc.

 

[sophisto]

I believe the information in Jeff & Wayne's book concurs with what I have outlined about micorrhizal fungi (in more simple mode). Page; 61 and 160-164. There may be references elsewhere but I believe this is what they would mean by fungally dominated soil.

I have not used yucca nor aloe in compost tea. I would imagine the saponins would create a lot of foam. They have many derivatives apparently, from soap to steroids and birth control pills.

I think due to my simple understanding of soil biology, I may have misinterpreted what fungally dominant soil meant...I also remeber seeing in Elaine Ingham's "Compost Tea brewing manual" that she gave different base recipes for 3 types of tea...1 bacterial, 1, bacterial/fungal, and 1 fungal dominant..The third tea did not however list mychorrizae as an ingredient to add after the tea is brewed?????

Also Some of the tea gurus here at IC seem to brew fungall dominant teas all the time to help out in flower.. These usually contain EWC and phosphorous guano...I have seen baby oatmeal added to feed the fungus, and I have seen some let the components to be brewed grow a little fungus before throwing it in the brewer...

So it is in your opinion that switching the dominance of bacterial/fungal one way or the other is unecessary??

I am in no way doubting your expertise and I hope you understand that I am only a simple guy trying to find simple answers... Thanks for maintaining this thread and sharing your knowledge with us....

 

[Microbeman]

I think due to my simple understanding of soil biology, I may have misinterpreted what fungally dominant soil meant...I also remeber seeing in Elaine Ingham's "Compost Tea brewing manual" that she gave different base recipes for 3 types of tea...1 bacterial, 1, bacterial/fungal, and 1 fungal dominant..The third tea did not however list mychorrizae as an ingredient to add after the tea is brewed?????

Also Some of the tea gurus here at IC seem to brew fungall dominant teas all the time to help out in flower.. These usually contain EWC and phosphorous guano...I have seen baby oatmeal added to feed the fungus, and I have seen some let the components to be brewed grow a little fungus before throwing it in the brewer...

So it is in your opinion that switching the dominance of bacterial/fungal one way or the other is unecessary??

I am in no way doubting your expertise and I hope you understand that I am only a simple guy trying to find simple answers... Thanks for maintaining this thread and sharing your knowledge with us....

Yes, you can brew fungal dominated CT but it is not mycorrhizal. I mentioned in a previous post on this thread that the type of fungi which grows in compost and in CT may have some effect on phosphorous cycling but I have seen no experiential nor written evidence of it yet. The type of fungi found in compost is typically fungi imperfecti and are chiefly degrader type fungi. In the grand scheme of things these obviously contribute to nutrient availability but I believe there is no direct relationship with the plant. A soil which is higher in fungal content is probably going to have a lower pH which may assist the mycorrhizal fungi with food/phosphorus delivery to the roots.

I do mention the tricks employed to grow fungal hyphae in compost (oat flour etc.) in the monologue but because I have yet to learn to identify fungal species and because there are dangerous species, I am hesitant to recommend this.

Elaine also does not know how to identify most species of hyphae (as far as I know) and they do not do this in their lab. I have been in communication with a world renowned mycologist concerning this whole subject. He is a little puzzled by the oat flour trick but I have yet to travel to his location to study this so do not have any solid information.

I have read advice from Elaine to add mycorrhizal spores to CT prior to spraying. In my opinion this is a waste, as the spores must have pretty immediate contact with roots to germinate.

It is easy to create a CT with lots of fungal hyphae (see videos on my website) as long as the fungi exists in your compost. A good fungal brew time is usually 18 hours using an efficient brewer. Of course, there will be bacteria as well. This is practically unavoidable.

I have a question. What is phosphorus guano? Is guano composted or is it a manure? If it is a manure, then they are making manure tea and not compost tea.

Anyway, you are the best one to answer your own questions. Try different methods and observe the results. Did it make a difference? One problem being, if you don't have a microscope, how will you know you have a fungal dominant CT? Do the 'tea gurus' have microscopes? Otherwise, how would they know they have a fungal dominant CT?

Tim

 

[Microbeman]

Here are a couple of quotes from Elaine related to our discussion;

Re: phosphorus

“A huge number of species of bacteria and fungi can extract P from the soil. All those mycorrhizal fungi are great at doing this in addition. They can access literally thousands of micrograms of P that a Bray 2 will not even begin to extract, if you give the organisms the chance. Just like people, however, soil organisms need air, water, food and housing. “

Re; adding mycorrhizal spore to CT; note that this is from 2004 and she could have changed her stance on this. Please be aware that recently she has stated that trichoderma fungi consumes mycorrhizal fungi so it should be used in moderation and astutely.

“Re: [compost_tea] Re: Mycorrhizal spores on market

More on Mycorrhizal fungi -
Typically what you want in tea are the mycorrhizal SPORES.
Those are dormant stages, and they are not harmed by pumps.
So, add your inoculum of mycorrhizal spores into the tea just before you spray it out, and there's no problem.
It takes a minimum of 4 hours for the spores to begin to wake up in a good tea. So, don't put hte spores in at the beginning of the tea brew, put them in at the end.
Trichoderma is a different story. They germinate and grow (not reproduce, ok? They don't sporulate in tea) in tea and are hardy to the point that few pumps harm them even in vegetative growth phase.
And yes, Trichoderma isn't the best thing to put on the leaf surface, UNLESS you have a fungal infection taking over your foliage. And then, you NEED to have the ACTIVE stage of the Trichoderma, not the spores.
Elaine R. Ingham
Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
Soil Foodweb Inc., Port Jefferson, New York”

 

[jaykush]

there is a lot of information written by one of our members on guano and manure, should have answers to questions you might have.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=34056&highlight=guano+guide

 

[sophisto]

Here are a couple of quotes from Elaine related to our discussion;

Re: phosphorus

“A huge number of species of bacteria and fungi can extract P from the soil. All those mycorrhizal fungi are great at doing this in addition. They can access literally thousands of micrograms of P that a Bray 2 will not even begin to extract, if you give the organisms the chance. Just like people, however, soil organisms need air, water, food and housing. “

Re; adding mycorrhizal spore to CT; note that this is from 2004 and she could have changed her stance on this. Please be aware that recently she has stated that trichoderma fungi consumes mycorrhizal fungi so it should be used in moderation and astutely.

“Re: [compost_tea] Re: Mycorrhizal spores on market

More on Mycorrhizal fungi -
Typically what you want in tea are the mycorrhizal SPORES.
Those are dormant stages, and they are not harmed by pumps.
So, add your inoculum of mycorrhizal spores into the tea just before you spray it out, and there's no problem.
It takes a minimum of 4 hours for the spores to begin to wake up in a good tea. So, don't put hte spores in at the beginning of the tea brew, put them in at the end.
Trichoderma is a different story. They germinate and grow (not reproduce, ok? They don't sporulate in tea) in tea and are hardy to the point that few pumps harm them even in vegetative growth phase.
And yes, Trichoderma isn't the best thing to put on the leaf surface, UNLESS you have a fungal infection taking over your foliage. And then, you NEED to have the ACTIVE stage of the Trichoderma, not the spores.
Elaine R. Ingham
Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
Soil Foodweb Inc., Port Jefferson, New York”

I appreciate all the good info.... I think you have cleared up my confusion on this one and I have some ideas as to how to clarify even more with tests on my own....Thanks



You make a good point about the microscope, and I am sure most here do not have this tool to verify the dominance of their teas...I do believe however that by trial and error they have come to some good conclusions on there own.. With enough visual evidence to support their theory..

Phosphorous guano is fruit eating bat poop.Most of the fungal dominant teas I have seen recipes for have P guano and vermicompost...So i guess it would have to be called a Manure/vermicompost tea....

I have brewed these types of teas before and I like the results...I until now always held firmly to the idea that bacterial teas were for vegetative growth and fungal teas were for flowering.. I can very easily run this test in the garden to see if their is any noted differences by switching dominance.. I will be using Alaskan Humus which has good numbers of both fungi and bacteria on one half from veg thru flower.. the the other half will be the same until flower in which they will get EWC/Guano teas

thanks again for the good info....

 

[Microbeman]

there is a lot of information written by one of our members on guano and manure, should have answers to questions you might have.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=34056&highlight=guano+guide

Thanks for the link. I read through it but it does not really answer the question of whether the guano purchased has been composted. At least I did not notice it in my rapid read. The author of the prose you referenced states that it is essential to compost manures before using them, yet says no such thing for guano. Because we have used manures extensively on our farm, spread on our hayfields and pasture I know and appreciate their value. There is a big difference, however, between spreading manure thinly over a field where it is rapidly decomposed and placing it in my vegetable garden or using it in a tea. I could understand mixing some guano in with your soil to gradually decompose and feed microbes but I think using it in CT opens the door to pathogen propogation. Just my opinion.

The author also mentions NPK being immediately available to the plant. This is, in my opinion, a carry over from the chemical paradigm. I believe this would imply that manure contains inorganic compounds or that plants can assimilate organic nutrients unassisted. This is something which interests me greatly. If anybody out there knows of some scientific papers showing that plants are capable of absorbing organic forms (molecules) of macro or micro nutrients without processing by microbes please point me to them.

Tim

 

[Microbeman]

I appreciate all the good info.... I think you have cleared up my confusion on this one and I have some ideas as to how to clarify even more with tests on my own....Thanks



You make a good point about the microscope, and I am sure most here do not have this tool to verify the dominance of their teas...I do believe however that by trial and error they have come to some good conclusions on there own.. With enough visual evidence to support their theory..

Phosphorous guano is fruit eating bat poop.Most of the fungal dominant teas I have seen recipes for have P guano and vermicompost...So i guess it would have to be called a Manure/vermicompost tea....

I have brewed these types of teas before and I like the results...I until now always held firmly to the idea that bacterial teas were for vegetative growth and fungal teas were for flowering.. I can very easily run this test in the garden to see if their is any noted differences by switching dominance.. I will be using Alaskan Humus which has good numbers of both fungi and bacteria on one half from veg thru flower.. the the other half will be the same until flower in which they will get EWC/Guano teas

thanks again for the good info....

Do you mean that you will use Alaska Humus CT? or Alaska Humus in the soil?

Why not use the same basic CT on both but on one just add the guano ingredient. Otherwise you are changing two variables and may not learn what you think you are learning. How do you know the fungal numbers are good in the Alaska Humus you purchased? Did you plant with mycorrhizal by chance?

Tim

 

[sophisto]

Do you mean that you will use Alaska Humus CT? or Alaska Humus in the soil?

Why not use the same basic CT on both but on one just add the guano ingredient. Otherwise you are changing two variables and may not learn what you think you are learning. How do you know the fungal numbers are good in the Alaska Humus you purchased? Did you plant with mycorrhizal by chance?

Tim

I only know as I have seen lab tests on the product....These could of course be tainted lab results??? I guess I need a scope huh????

I will also take your suggestion to use the alaskan humus for both phases, I might however just switch the food sources as to try( without a scope) to brew fungal dominance....

Any other suggestions you might have I am all ears.....Thanks again