Not sure if my plants are sick or not

[MynameStitch]

I don't know what the ppm of the tap water is. I do know I have very, very little waste water from the RO/DI unit. The pH is around 7.2 - 7.4 straight from the faucet

Then you are not getting RO water, because it takes a lot of water to make a gallon of RO water, your filtration system must need to be changed, when was the last time it was changed?

pH of RO is around 5.5 or a little higher.

You let the water sit out for 24 hours before using it, reason why I said use tap water is because your feedings is not complete enough to use RO/DI/Distilled water.
Let water sit out and then right before you are going to feed them, mix the nutrients in and shake.
Also remember to shake your bottle well, the nutrients containers well before using them.

What brand of cal mag are you using?
You can use earthjuice catalyst, microblast, sensi cal, cal mag and some others.
Any of those would be complete or nearly complete micro nutes.
SAme goes for flowering as well as veg.

 

[HeadyPete]

On the issue of chlorine, I use a large 18.9L blue water jug to bubble my tap water at least 24hrs with an aquarium pump and airstone.

If your municipality uses chloramine instead for disinfecting, you cannot remove it with the bubbler method.

I use a Milwaukee PH40, $70. Not the highest end, but take care of it and keep it clean and calibrated regularly and it will serve you well. This model is discontinued and it may be worth your while to spend a little more and get a waterproof/ replaceable probe model. Obviously a combo is more $$$ than just a ph meter, so if you don't need ppm, don't buy it. You can fert by number (ppm) or you can learn to read you plants, take notes of your dosages, and feed without ever knowing a ppm. Also, organic ferts do not read accurately on a ppm meter and work completely differently in your garden than mineral/synthetic ferts, so if you go organic that meter won't be much help. Lastly, if you were in hydro I'd be more apt to push the ppm meter, but it is up to you.

Good luck and glad your garden is on the mend. One day this will all just be a good experience for you and you can look back fondly as you trim your copious amounts of killer homegrown!

This call for a joint!

 

[MPL]

The filters are brand new. The amount of waste water is usually dependent on how "dirty" the original water is. I used this filter for my marine aquariums, where absolutely pure water is essential, and it was fine. The pH has always been a bit higher than expected with this unit.

I put out a pitcher of tap water last night. I pH'd it and mixed in the nutrients. I'll try it out tonight and see how it goes.

I have Botanicare Calmag.

The GH MaxiGro is dry, so I don't know that shaking will help much.

I will pick up a bottle of microblast. I seem to remember hearing some good things about it.

Some of the leaves have started untwisting. I think the pH may have been a bit high in the pots. I'm going to pay much more attention to my runoff from now on.

Thanks!

Then you are not getting RO water, because it takes a lot of water to make a gallon of RO water, your filtration system must need to be changed, when was the last time it was changed?

pH of RO is around 5.5 or a little higher.

You let the water sit out for 24 hours before using it, reason why I said use tap water is because your feedings is not complete enough to use RO/DI/Distilled water.
Let water sit out and then right before you are going to feed them, mix the nutrients in and shake.
Also remember to shake your bottle well, the nutrients containers well before using them.

What brand of cal mag are you using?
You can use earthjuice catalyst, microblast, sensi cal, cal mag and some others.
Any of those would be complete or nearly complete micro nutes.
SAme goes for flowering as well as veg.

 

[MPL]

Thanks mate! I have no idea how they disinfect the water. If they do use chloramine, how do I remove it?

I'll try to buy a good digi pH meter next week. I'm also getting some 10 gallon barrels to store premixed water and nutrient solution in.

I don't know that I'll try hydro for a long time. The closest I think I'd do is going with a straight Coco set up and watering by hand daily.

I think the plants are looking much better, thanks to everyone's advice. Thanks!!!

A joint would be excellent, but I just ran out of buds last night. Smoke one for me!

On the issue of chlorine, I use a large 18.9L blue water jug to bubble my tap water at least 24hrs with an aquarium pump and airstone.

If your municipality uses chloramine instead for disinfecting, you cannot remove it with the bubbler method.

I use a Milwaukee PH40, $70. Not the highest end, but take care of it and keep it clean and calibrated regularly and it will serve you well. This model is discontinued and it may be worth your while to spend a little more and get a waterproof/ replaceable probe model. Obviously a combo is more $$$ than just a ph meter, so if you don't need ppm, don't buy it. You can fert by number (ppm) or you can learn to read you plants, take notes of your dosages, and feed without ever knowing a ppm. Also, organic ferts do not read accurately on a ppm meter and work completely differently in your garden than mineral/synthetic ferts, so if you go organic that meter won't be much help. Lastly, if you were in hydro I'd be more apt to push the ppm meter, but it is up to you.

Good luck and glad your garden is on the mend. One day this will all just be a good experience for you and you can look back fondly as you trim your copious amounts of killer homegrown!

This call for a joint!

 

[HeadyPete]

Chloramine can be removed from tap water by treatment with superchlorination (10 ppm or more of free chlorine, such as from a dose of sodium hypochlorite bleach or pool sanitizer) while maintaining a pH of about 7 (such as from a dose of hydrochloric acid). Hypochlorous acid from the free chlorine strips the ammonia from the chloramine, and the ammonia outgasses from the surface of the bulk water. This process takes about 24 hours for normal tap water concentrations of a few ppm of chloramine. Residual free chlorine can then be removed by exposure to bright sunlight for about 4 hours.

Quite a pain in the ass.

 

[MPL]

Should I just ditch these plants and start over? They only grown about 7" since I got them over a month ago. Most people seem to be able to start from seed and in 30 days have 2 - 3 foot tall plants.

Blah this is irritating.

 

[MPL]

Do I need to remove chloramine then? If my water supply has chloramine in it, should I buy distilled?

Quite a pain in the ass.

 

[MynameStitch]

Hey petey, I did not know that organic reads differently on a TDS pens...... thanks for sharing that info m8!

If I think about it; it's kind of common sense that it does that considering the fact how slow releasing most organics are......

How did you ever find that out??

 

[HeadyPete]

Hey,

Minerals ferts register as salts in parts per million, and because the plant takes that molecule up directly and uses it, it is a useful and accurate way to determine feed strength in a solution.

Organic ferts are "raw materials" and basically food for soil microbes. It's the excretions of the microbes that is the end product for the plant to take up and utilize as nutrients. The main reason that they are not accurately read by the meter is they are not comprised of salts like synthetic ferts, but other materials like composted guanos and kelp, molasses etc.

This breakdown period in the soil is why organics are "slow release".

Some one mentioned it here some time ago that organics don't read well on meters, and as I thought about, the mechanics of it, plus remembering science back in school, I figured it out.

MPL - Test your water ph fresh out of the tap, then let it sit a day or two and see if the ph drops. If so, then that was the chlorine off gassing from your water. Chlorine has a ph of 11. If there is no change, chances are it's chloramine. Maybe there is a website for your municipal water supply that tells you what's in it, or you can call the water office and ask for analysis and ask how they treat the water.

Don't get discouraged, finish your plants and learn from them. That's how people learn and get experience to grow plants in 30 days. Don't try to keep up with hydro guys, soil growing is slower in every way.

Watch night temps now in winter so they don't get too cold. That will slow growth, plants will get pale, stems purple and leaves kind of droopy with reddish veins. A plant heat mat is the perfect fix. Don't put plants directly on any floors, use some kind of insulation or air space.

 

[MPL]

Alrighty, I will call them tomorrow and ask about chloramine. Is this detrimental to plants?

I figured out my issue. Apparently the pH in my pots is rising. I used plain water at 6.0 pH tonight, which measured 6.6 - 6.7 as runoff. The plants perked wayyyy up within about an hour of watering. So, I am fairly certain that the pH was off, especially when taking the problems into account. Apparently the pH was causing the minor leaf curling and also most likely the deficiencies I was seeing.

I'm learning an awful lot awfully fast.

What could cause the pH in the soil (soilless really) to rise up? Have I used up most of the buffers already?

The temps do sometimes get a bit chilly in the cab, but it's only been under 70F once or twice. I have them several inches off the bottom of the cab.

Thanks a lot for all the advice everyone!

Hey,

Minerals ferts register as salts in parts per million, and because the plant takes that molecule up directly and uses it, it is a useful and accurate way to determine feed strength in a solution.

Organic ferts are "raw materials" and basically food for soil microbes. It's the excretions of the microbes that is the end product for the plant to take up and utilize as nutrients. The main reason that they are not accurately read by the meter is they are not comprised of salts like synthetic ferts, but other materials like composted guanos and kelp, molasses etc.

This breakdown period in the soil is why organics are "slow release".

Some one mentioned it here some time ago that organics don't read well on meters, and as I thought about, the mechanics of it, plus remembering science back in school, I figured it out.

MPL - Test your water ph fresh out of the tap, then let it sit a day or two and see if the ph drops. If so, then that was the chlorine off gassing from your water. Chlorine has a ph of 11. If there is no change, chances are it's chloramine. Maybe there is a website for your municipal water supply that tells you what's in it, or you can call the water office and ask for analysis and ask how they treat the water.

Don't get discouraged, finish your plants and learn from them. That's how people learn and get experience to grow plants in 30 days. Don't try to keep up with hydro guys, soil growing is slower in every way.

Watch night temps now in winter so they don't get too cold. That will slow growth, plants will get pale, stems purple and leaves kind of droopy with reddish veins. A plant heat mat is the perfect fix. Don't put plants directly on any floors, use some kind of insulation or air space.

 

[HeadyPete]

When roots take nutrients from the soil, ph rises. The more rootbound plants become, the better they are at sucking up the nutes, the faster ph rises.

If you find you need to water everyday and your ph is rising fast, may be time to transplant or trim the rootballs.

You mention "buffer", but what that actually is is lime or oyster or some mineral that is alkaline that offsets the acidity of the peat in a peat based mix. These "buffers" do help calm wild fluctuations of ph, but because they are alkaline, they raise ph. They buffer against ph dropping, mostly.

Correct ph is a juggling act that you must test and adjust every time you water.

Chlorine and chloramine are detrimental, but as for a detailed scientific explanation beyond the high ph and the killing of soil bacteria, I'd have to look into that. Here is some info:

Chloramine-treated water in the garden
Posted by gweigel December 01, 2007 15:11PM
Categories: Container Gardening, Miscellaneous Questions

By George Weigel/The Patriot-News

Q: There's been talk about local water suppliers treating water with chloramine instead of chlorine. The proponents of this process seem to say there is little detrimental effect. But I read on one web site that chloramine "does nasty things to microbes in soil." Do you have any information on what this will mean to gardeners?

A: Excellent question. The point of using chloramines (a combination of chlorine and ammonia) is to kill harmful bacteria in drinking water, so it's logical to assume that irrigating plants with chloraminated water will do some damage to bacteria in the soil - including bacteria helpful to plant growth.

The question is whether it's going to do enough damage to cause plant problems. My gut feeling is no - with a couple of caveats and possible exceptions. Some thoughts that struck me while wading through the research...

1.) Chloraminated water has been used for at least 90 years in the U.S. and abroad. If it was going to cause trouble in the garden, someone should have noticed by now. Here's what one study from Australia's Urban Water Research Association concluded: "It seems unlikely that the use of chloraminated water for irrigation of soil-grown plants would have adverse effects on growth, whether the water is applied directly to the soil or as an aerial spray."

2.) Soil-borne bacteria are pretty resilient and plentiful. The chloramine levels used in treated water shouldn't make more than a dent in the soil bacteria population. And I suspect the bacteria would quickly bounce back.

3.) Any ill effects would depend on how much chloraminated water you applied and how often you applied it. Rain would dilute and leach the chloramine out of the root zone, so plant damage (if any) would be more likely in droughty weather. I'd be more concerned about container plants, which would get daily and focused doses of chloramine throughout the growing season. Symptoms would be browning around the leaf edges and possibly yellowing of the leaves.

4.) The other area of concern is in water gardens. Fish are sensitive to chloramine as well as chlorine. But unlike chlorine that dissipates in a day or two, chloramine persists longer (a trait that also makes it more attractive in treating drinking water). If you're lightly topping a pond with chloraminated water - say, by less than 5 percent of volume - you're unlikely to harm fish. But if you're replacing the water or adding more than 5 percent, you should go to the pet store or pond supplier and buy a product that neutralizes chloramine. Carbon and biological filters also gradually remove the ammonia that's a component of chloramine.

5.) If you're making compost tea with chloraminated water, that's likely to destroy some of the bacteria, which is one of the main benefits of this fertilizer in the first place. You can neutralize the chloramine by mixing 1 teaspoon of humic acid per 100 gallons of compost tea, according to one company that makes compost-tea brewers.

A good way to sidestep this whole issue is to collect your own rain water and use that as much as possible. Also helpful would be adding compost regularly to your soil, which is loaded with beneficial microorganisms.

If anyone has some other thoughts, opinions, tips or contrary information, please add it. Any soil scientists out there?

http://blog.pennlive.com/gardening/2007/12/chloraminetreated_water_in_the.html

 

[MPL]

So basically my plants are starting to do better and they're sucking up more nutes from the soil, thus requiring a lower pH to offset the rising pH from their consumption?

This might explain why the soil has been drier when I go to water at my usual time.

Thanks so much!

When roots take nutrients from the soil, ph rises. The more rootbound plants become, the better they are at sucking up the nutes, the faster ph rises.

If you find you need to water everyday and your ph is rising fast, may be time to transplant or trim the rootballs.

 

[HeadyPete]

yes, basically. As the roots absorb nutrients from the water/nutrient solution in thethe soil, the chemistry changes and the ph rises. There is also any alkaline ingredients in your soil like shell or lime, calcium and magnesium, which are raising ph, and on the other hand when soil microbes digest nutes and excrete them for the plants, the excretions are acidic so the microbial action is lowering ph. Peat moss, guanos and fishmeal ferts and Floralicious Plus for sure are very acidic. It's a complicated dance that never ends. You just need to tip it this way or that to keep it ideal.

The soil is drier because the plant's metabolism is increased and they are transpiring more, which moves water out of the root zone, through the stem and out the leaves quicker. They are also using nutrients faster and in larger quantities because of the increased metabolism and growth.

 

[MPL]

What would cause my soil to go extremely alkaline? I am watering at a pH of 5.5 right now and the runoff is around 7.0. I can't seem to get it down and the plants are not looking good. Any ideas? I'm repotting Wednesday. I have some soil that is pretty acidic (what I originally started with in this thread) that I can mix in, but then that might make the soil too acidic. blah. pH is irritating.

 

[HeadyPete]

Is there lime or oyster shell in your mix?

 

[ackuric]

Ive used Fox Farm Light Warrior which contains oyster shell and I added a tiny bit of dolomite lime, I have the same results, water with 5.2 ph'd water and my run off is constantly 6.9-7.1, whats the best method of attaining a livable ph?

 

[MPL]

Yeah I have FF LW as well, mixed 1:1 with perlite. Plants are starting to look really droopy. I have some soil that has a lot of peat moss in it that runs a pH around 5.5 I am thinking about mixing that in when I repot Wed.

Plants are NOT looking good right now, even though runoff last night was 6.0, which is where they were growing fastest before.

 

[HeadyPete]

It can take sometime for them to recover. At least you have your ph in a better range. How about a pic of this droopiness. Could be a few things.

If the pots are rootbound (lift the root ball out of the pot to check) than the ph will always be high as there are more roots absorbing nutrients and water than there is soil catching and storing your ph'd water.

Either trim the rootball halfway and repot with fresh soil or repot in a bigger pot with fresh soil.

 

[MPL]

Repotted into 2 gallon pots tonight. My plants were definitely rootbound. I could not believe how much the roots had grown. I don't think the 2 gallon pots are going to be enough for very long so I'm going into 3 gallon pots Friday and I'm going to start flowering them the Friday after that. I wonder if I might need 4 or 5 gallon pots...

pH is stable again, by the way.

 

[MynameStitch]

Roots normally grow the quickest in the first 2 weeks of flowering due to the plants massive stretch and growth phase, after that the rest of the root growth is to help with bud growth and development.
SO if you got enough root space after 2 weeks you should have enough for harvest......

Before you transplant, loosen up some of the roots a bit to help it fit in to the new pot, will help out a lot better; give it some superthrive or some vitamin B1 supplement when you water to help with the stress of transplant.

1 to 2 drops of superthrive per gallon of water is all you need.....