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Co2 kill flavor an smell?

VerdantGreen

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battering your buds with too much light and radiant heat (from the lights), and having your lights too close to the canopy is what causes lack of smell and taste ime. I use week-ass lights, organic soil, and my buds absolutely STINK compared to the same clones that my mates run in a commercial setting with big lights.
VG
 

linde

Well-known member
I've noticed that any bud I've had or seen that's been growing with co2 all smells the same. Only way to describe it is like 2000s dro where bud smelled almost the same regardless of looks/color/genetics.

Now is this just the commercial growers fucking something up simply to maximize yield or is it the co2 causing this lack of taste an smell?
not co2. just washed out genetics.
 
Use of C02 indicates the mindset these guys are in. The mothers are typically epigenetically ruined in these ops. The nute profile they use does not repair the damage done by photorespiration. They typically use tap water: the carbonates pick up an extra hydrogen between 5.5 and 7pH, doubling their potential to hault the plants metabolism and restrict nutrition responsible for 2ndary metabolites. You'll get the off flavors that should not be consumed: urinal cake, fucked up bakery trash, plastic fishing worms, shoe store, nitrile glove, foggy dirty air, tennis balls, shoe spray, peanut shells,etc etc etc.
 

lemonade

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I like to have full control over over the environment which means sealed room/AC/dehums/CO2 supplementation. You cant have a sealed room without supplementing CO2. You cant use an AC without sealing the room. All these things work together…Also you need strong lighting for CO2 to be effective.

The notion that CO2 can kill smell just isnt true in my experience and quite frankly without addressing every comment in this thread….There’s alot of quackery going on here LOL!

I’ve used both burners and Tanks/injectors on dozens of rooms and honestly to me its essential. Tanks are more user friendly. Anyhow, faster growth rates, increased vigour, and yield for sure. Maybe even increased aroma/terps honestly. Certainly no decrease in my experience however.

Yes you can run things hotter with CO2 but you don't have to fry them. I run 76-83 degrees Fahrenheit (lights ON temp) with1200-2000 ppm CO2 depending on cultivar in bloom. Cut the CO2 down (reduce ON/OFF temps also) to ambient level (400-600 ppm) last 7-10 days as high ppms can inhibit final finishing/ripening. This is all growing 101.

Anyone can grow potent, extremely terpy cannabis. Most of that is genetics. Growing that same quality and making it YEILD well requires a bit more work and resources however.
 
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hambre

Active member
So essentially LED + high co2 = mediocre quality an poor taste/smell

I've seen a lumatek LED system made for grows with CO2, I don't know what are its specificities.
Hi, nothing else more than the same LED`s. They just change the name. There is no such thing as LED`s made for CO2.

battering your buds with too much light and radiant heat (from the lights), and having your lights too close to the canopy is what causes lack of smell and taste ime. I use week-ass lights, organic soil, and my buds absolutely STINK compared to the same clones that my mates run in a commercial setting with big lights.
VG
Hi, there is studies supporting the idea that the higher part of the plants are the higher concentration of essential oils or secondary metabolites. Nor your organic soil or your lights are making it better, try looking for the real reason, maybe it is genetics.

Use of C02 indicates the mindset these guys are in. The mothers are typically epigenetically ruined in these ops. The nute profile they use does not repair the damage done by photorespiration. They typically use tap water: the carbonates pick up an extra hydrogen between 5.5 and 7pH, doubling their potential to hault the plants metabolism and restrict nutrition responsible for 2ndary metabolites. You'll get the off flavors that should not be consumed: urinal cake, fucked up bakery trash, plastic fishing worms, shoe store, nitrile glove, foggy dirty air, tennis balls, shoe spray, peanut shells,etc etc etc.

How can you support your claim???? What damage respiration does to the genes of a plant? LOL How do you suppose they use tap water when most of the commercial ops have RO water systems in place???? I think you don`t now what you are talking about as some of the people here claiming anecdotes and things they heard from others as facts...

All speculation aside, there is some people claiming it is heat what kills terpenes, I don`t now, if you have your plants as mine, ranging from 28,3ºC to 26,8ºC all cycle, but at the same time claim how great the flavor and terpenes or whatever of extractions at 85ºC... I don`t get it. Why don`t you just look for studies to try to back your claims instead of saying random stuff just because? We could learn so much!!!
 

VerdantGreen

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Hi, there is studies supporting the idea that the higher part of the plants are the higher concentration of essential oils or secondary metabolites. Nor your organic soil or your lights are making it better, try looking for the real reason, maybe it is genetics.
I think in your first sentence you are agreeing with me that heat from big lights will degrade the Terps ?
I wasn't making any particular claim for organics.
and i mostly grow my own crosses/lines so if you want to credit the genetics for my good quality weed, that's just fine with me!
VG
 

lemonade

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I think in your first sentence you are agreeing with me that heat from big lights will degrade the Terps ?
I wasn't making any particular claim for organics.
and i mostly grow my own crosses/lines so if you want to credit the genetics for my good quality weed, that's just fine with me!
VG

@VerdantGreen I think perhaps theres a communication mistake between you guys!

PS what do you consider “big lights”?
 

VerdantGreen

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Hi @lemonade , yes i may have misundertood.
Not sure what i call big lights.. 600+ ? i use 250w or lower, LEDS these days. I think many people have their lights too close to the canopy which makes the heat worse.
VG
 

hambre

Active member
I think in your first sentence you are agreeing with me that heat from big lights will degrade the Terps ?
I wasn't making any particular claim for organics.
and i mostly grow my own crosses/lines so if you want to credit the genetics for my good quality weed, that's just fine with me!
VG
Nope, I didn`t. Read my entire response, I don`t know what you grow, and personally don`t care.
 

VerdantGreen

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@hambre I did read your entire response and that is how i understood it. If you aren't inclined to explain it further then there is not much i can do. I thought it was generally accepted that some terpenes evaporate at quite low temperatures.
"Some terpenes will begin to evaporate off at temperatures as low as 70°F, although most will begin to degrade at around 100°F.
This has real effects not only for the taste and smell of the cannabis product, but also its effects."
 

hambre

Active member
@hambre I did read your entire response and that is how i understood it. If you aren't inclined to explain it further then there is not much i can do. I thought it was generally accepted that some terpenes evaporate at quite low temperatures.
"Some terpenes will begin to evaporate off at temperatures as low as 70°F, although most will begin to degrade at around 100°F.
This has real effects not only for the taste and smell of the cannabis product, but also its effects."
Well, you suggest heat from the lights radiation causes the buds to lack of smell and taste, and I said clearly in my response that the higher the buds, the higher concentration of secondary metabolites, which isn`t the same. So I don`t agree with what you say and I am not saying the same as you, to make it clear. In the article you quoted and linked doesn`t say anything about what you said before, in fact, you took one paragraph to make your point, because in the article talks clear as water that the 70ºF temps is after the harvest to preserve the content of terpenes on the harvested buds, not while growing.
So, I never saw a controlled growroom where its temperature reaches 100ºF (37,7ºC), which makes almost impossible to degrade any terpene. Scroll down in that same article and it shows the boiling temperatures for some terpenes:
Myrcene: 168ºC (330ºF)
Linalool: 198ºC (388,4ºF)
And the list goes on, but I think you got my point.

What you think is generally accepted isn`t usually reality. When you grow and control VPD, for example, you need both air and leaf surface temps, and it never reaches close to 37ºC in a controlled environment, never, nobody would do that. And I am not even taling about those 100ºC and some more you need to evaporate the terpenes. The article talks about conservation after harvest, remember.

And that difference between "big" and "week-ass" lights... Let`s not enter that discussion, please, I accept your opinion, but it is just that, an opinion. And it is fine.

I hope I explained myself a little more to your understanding.
 

VerdantGreen

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Well, you suggest heat from the lights radiation causes the buds to lack of smell and taste, and I said clearly in my response that the higher the buds, the higher concentration of secondary metabolites, which isn`t the same. .....

I hope I explained myself a little more to your understanding.
Thanks for the civil response.
What you say above does not prove that terpenes aren't degrades by radiant heat from the lights. Sure, the top buds should be biggest and most resinous.. but they could still have had some terps degraded!
I agree that you can grow excellent buds under big lights if you do it just right. Many don't do it just right.
It sounds like you are a good and exacting grower - so im sure you follow best practice. I'm not saying every grow with big lights will produce sh1t bud, i'm saying that they can produce sub-optimal buds if you let the tops get too close to the light.
Now, sorry for the anecdote, i know you 'personally don't care' what i grow, but -
I have a couple of 'commercial ' friends, and i got a White Rhino clone off one of them. i did it out of curiosity for WR because the buds he grew of it were pretty bland. When i grew it, it turned out to be one of the most smelly and tasty i have experienced. Not quite UK cheese strength of pong but getting on for it. This clone is now one of my favorites and it turns out i had found, by accident, a sought after clone from the nineties that a few people here had been trying to locate for a while.
VG
 

goingrey

Well-known member
Well, you suggest heat from the lights radiation causes the buds to lack of smell and taste, and I said clearly in my response that the higher the buds, the higher concentration of secondary metabolites, which isn`t the same. So I don`t agree with what you say and I am not saying the same as you, to make it clear. In the article you quoted and linked doesn`t say anything about what you said before, in fact, you took one paragraph to make your point, because in the article talks clear as water that the 70ºF temps is after the harvest to preserve the content of terpenes on the harvested buds, not while growing.
So, I never saw a controlled growroom where its temperature reaches 100ºF (37,7ºC), which makes almost impossible to degrade any terpene. Scroll down in that same article and it shows the boiling temperatures for some terpenes:
Myrcene: 168ºC (330ºF)
Linalool: 198ºC (388,4ºF)
And the list goes on, but I think you got my point.

What you think is generally accepted isn`t usually reality. When you grow and control VPD, for example, you need both air and leaf surface temps, and it never reaches close to 37ºC in a controlled environment, never, nobody would do that. And I am not even taling about those 100ºC and some more you need to evaporate the terpenes. The article talks about conservation after harvest, remember.

And that difference between "big" and "week-ass" lights... Let`s not enter that discussion, please, I accept your opinion, but it is just that, an opinion. And it is fine.

I hope I explained myself a little more to your understanding.
The bulb temperature of a 600W HPS is 450C (841F), according to Philips SON-T spec sheet.

Very easy for tops to grow close enough for temps to get beyond terpene boiling points. Surely everyone who has grown with HPS has experienced this.

Not sure if this explains the phenomenon entirely though.
 

hambre

Active member
Thanks for the civil response.
What you say above does not prove that terpenes aren't degrades by radiant heat from the lights. Sure, the top buds should be biggest and most resinous.. but they could still have had some terps degraded!
I agree that you can grow excellent buds under big lights if you do it just right. Many don't do it just right.
It sounds like you are a good and exacting grower - so im sure you follow best practice. I'm not saying every grow with big lights will produce sh1t bud, i'm saying that they can produce sub-optimal buds if you let the tops get too close to the light.
Now, sorry for the anecdote, i know you 'personally don't care' what i grow, but -
I have a couple of 'commercial ' friends, and i got a White Rhino clone off one of them. i did it out of curiosity for WR because the buds he grew of it were pretty bland. When i grew it, it turned out to be one of the most smelly and tasty i have experienced. Not quite UK cheese strength of pong but getting on for it. This clone is now one of my favorites and it turns out i had found, by accident, a sought after clone from the nineties that a few people here had been trying to locate for a while.
VG
No problem, I don`t want to be mean or anything, and english isn`t my native language so bear with me, please.
I don`t care what anyone grows when discussing this topics, that who`s-got-the-bigger-dick competition is not my place to be, it isn`t personal with anyone. I couldn`t take it personal.
There is some studies made by the university of Utah (I think it is Bugbee and another two guys) which shows the higher buds had (I don`t remember exactly) much more oils than the lower buds which had, obviously, less light. So, assuming you have an spectrumradiometer, you can measure the amount of radiation emanating from your lights and, of course, you can control your ambient temperature too, so it makes it almost impossible in a controlled environment to produce such effect as degrading terpenes on the higher buds. It will never reach the 37ºC needed to degrade them.

And yes, anecdotes are that, anecdotes, I try to be the most objective possible and I can admit if I am wrong. I have a lot of anecdotes too, but a tree doesn`t make a forest, right? The problem I see with anecdotes when someone tells me this or that made the change is: is that what really made the change? Can you point the closer lights to the buds as the real reason for what your buds are better than his? Usually, two people don`t grow the same way, and the plant respond to so many variables that it is pretty difficult to pinpoint only one as the reason of change. That is the problem I have with all of these growers, growshops, the cannabis market in general is made on myth after myth and bro science and anecdotes. I prefer to pay attention to people who actually study the thing and gift us (for free) with that knowledge. It is too easy to grow excelent, top quality buds, believe me, it is TOO easy. This is one of the most easy plants to grow in the entire world, but for some reason, it is treated as something special and different, but it is a plant. Study plant phisiology, biology, chemistry, etc and you will find real answers.

Hope I don`t bore anyone haha
 

hambre

Active member
The bulb temperature of a 600W HPS is 450C (841F), according to Philips SON-T spec sheet.

Very easy for tops to grow close enough for temps to get beyond terpene boiling points. Surely everyone who has grown with HPS has experienced this.

Not sure if this explains the phenomenon entirely though.
Hi, no, it doesn`t explain it. Nobody with their right mind would put a bulb stick to their buds, obviously they burn and that is what consequently will make the smoke harsh, not the absence of terpenes. And you can have hundreds of lights on a room but it won`t be 450ºC, right? Why? Because we control the temperature. I did HPS a lot but never even once burnt my tops, never.
 

goingrey

Well-known member
Hi, no, it doesn`t explain it. Nobody with their right mind would put a bulb stick to their buds, obviously they burn and that is what consequently will make the smoke harsh, not the absence of terpenes. And you can have hundreds of lights on a room but it won`t be 450ºC, right? Why? Because we control the temperature. I did HPS a lot but never even once burnt my tops, never.
Never? Wow, well done. I might have turned a couple brown in my time. :whistling: But they don't even need to get anywhere near that close for a lot of the volatiles to evaporate.. You can smell it.

Anyway, the "usual suspects" for crappy mersh are overfertilization and PGRs. They call this "dilution" in the scientific papers (full disclosure: only read papers about overfertilization that validate this, not PGRs).

Easy to think of it as a plant always producing the same amount of cannabinoids/terpenes despite the biomass. But more accurately I suppose it's just easier to increase the amount of biomass than these compounds.. So the proportions get out of whack

As CO2 also increases the biomass, it's only logical that it would contribute to the same effect. But maybe not so much as in the CO2 somehow scrubbing out the goodies, just the "dilution effect"?
 

lemonade

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Veteran
The bulb temperature of a 600W HPS is 450C (841F), according to Philips SON-T spec sheet.

Very easy for tops to grow close enough for temps to get beyond terpene boiling points. Surely everyone who has grown with HPS has experienced this.

Not sure if this explains the phenomenon entirely though.

Nah thats the core temp of the bulb, which contains vaporized/molten sodium.

Like others have stated if you have any idea what your doing you will be measuring air temps and radiant temp at the canopy; regardless what kind of lighting you’re using. Neither of which should go above mid 80’s Fahrenheit, let alone 450c!;)
 

hambre

Active member
Never? Wow, well done. I might have turned a couple brown in my time. :whistling: But they don't even need to get anywhere near that close for a lot of the volatiles to evaporate.. You can smell it.

Anyway, the "usual suspects" for crappy mersh are overfertilization and PGRs. They call this "dilution" in the scientific papers (full disclosure: only read papers about overfertilization that validate this, not PGRs).

Easy to think of it as a plant always producing the same amount of cannabinoids/terpenes despite the biomass. But more accurately I suppose it's just easier to increase the amount of biomass than these compounds.. So the proportions get out of whack

As CO2 also increases the biomass, it's only logical that it would contribute to the same effect. But maybe not so much as in the CO2 somehow scrubbing out the goodies, just the "dilution effect"?
No, never, thank God. Over fertilization burns the plants, which at the end, it is the same as burning them with heat, I would think. So, yeah, that is one fair reason to harsh smokes and lack of taste, obviously haha

CO2 addition should be accompanied with environmental upgrades too, and strict control. The amount of secondary metabolites on the plant increases with controlled stress, it is proven and there is research going on about this. Doesn`t mean stress the plant all day or do some weird stuff, it is controlled.
 

Hammerhead

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Heat is our enemy. Terp's def burn off the more heat there is. I've never seen the need to use Co2 since I'm not growing in a sealed room, especially today with all the improvements in IPM tech and good order control. IMO none sealed rooms run better. Cooler temps are better but not lower than 75f IMO. I run a mixed light flower room CMH/LED. LED has trouble keeping the room warm enough. The CMH light adds the heat I prefer.
 
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