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    :D Genetic Preservation :D - Breeding

    Hopefully this thread is a seed that once planted begins to grow,
    with community love and support and blessing may it grow into a large tree!
    Hopefully its branches reach around the globe to every small village and tribe.

    To promote biodiversity and preservation not greed but giving.
    Protect the planet and people from corporate greed, may the corporations
    always remember that there are people at the heart of every corporation.

    More to the point
    Genetic preservation its been said we need thousands of plants to maintain.
    In this thread im going to suggest whats feasible for us to all do our part.

    If you try and preserve a Cannabis landrace with less than 1,000 females from seed and 1,000 males from seed you will lose genes every reproduction that is not real preservation.
    Some think the work can be staggered and only 100 reproduced each crop, for 10 consecutive years, but that is not how genetics work you need all 1,000 females and 1,000 males freely pollinating each other, reproduced at the same time in the same location to preserve a landrace and avoid gene loss. Cannabis is a Dioecious, Heterozygous, Obligate Outcrosser, that is why 1,000 males and 1,000 females from seed are required for preservation to keep all the genepool intact for a given landrace.-SamS

    Statistical genetic considerations for maintaining germ plasm collections
    J. Crossa , C. M. Hernandez , P. Bretting , S. A. Eberhart , S. Taba
    Theor Appl Genet (1993) 86:673-678
    DOI: 10.1007/BF00222655

    Methodologies for estimating the sample size required for genetic conservation of outbreeding crops.
    Crossa, J.
    Theoretical and Applied Genetics, 77(2). (1989).
    doi:10.1007/bf00266180

    In my own situation for example im going to try to preserve a
    "indica" and a "sativa" these terms used loosely
    for this project im going to look a effect, leaf shape and latitude of origin


    for the sativa im going to pick a sativa from a equatorial sativa (?)
    maybe Kerala open to suggestions, please post below

    for the indica im going to pick a indica type from the snow Himalayas (?)
    maybe siberia im open to suggestions,
    please post below maybe include a specimen photo

    Additionally im looking to aquire 20-40 seeds for a strain
    100-200 seeds for genetic preservation
    (if a few of us keep a genetic preservation line we could as a collective hold 1000s of seeds)


    Also this will aid in personal breeding projects specifically im looking for
    plant structure
    bud structure
    calyx to leaf ratio
    maturity time
    effect / duration
    terpene content
    potency
    vigor
    unique mutations


    if you have anything to ask add share here, only good vibes please !

    let it grow!
    Last edited by Sam_Skunkman; 02-09-2021, 07:40.
    "if" the biggest small word in the dictionary

    #2




    I found this amazing sativa (Kerala) phenotype in the Sensi Star Line from Paradise Seeds.

    She had the most amazing lip smacking methol flavour I have ever encountered in cannabis !!!

    The high was absolutely amazing, I'd just lie on the couch after smoking a joint listening to Ol Skool 70's music in absolute amazement and astonishment.
    Amazing high indeed.... very fuckin spiritual with just enough body to it to keep me glued to the couch for 2.5+ hours after smoking one .35 gram joint.

    She was like having an 8 shot expresso in the morning
    Just put me into the zone every time

    God the high had leg's and she had amazing pain relieving properties especially for chronic arthritis.... eliminated my pain totally

    Flowering time was 20.5 weeks (143 days)

    I think your on the right path with the Kerela

    Truely amazing cannabis indeed !!!


    Did you keep a clone?
    -SamS
    Last edited by Ganja 13; 02-10-2021, 08:54.

    Comment


      #3
      aww love this great description nice photos too ! thank you for taking the time to share it !
      "if" the biggest small word in the dictionary

      Comment


        #4
        FYI I had one plant from seeds I collected in Kerala that smelled just like vicks-vapo-rub this was more than 40 years ago, and the structure was a lot like yours not typical Kerala at all.
        I smoked a lot of Kerala weed in Kerala and did not see it in my search, most were slimmer NLD types and often as sweet as bubble gum, most seeds I grew in Calif were slim and sweet, great Cannabis, and sinsemilla when grown by the best farmers in Munnar. I visited many farms near Munnar. I paid $3.50 a Kg for the very best, and ground them all (10kg) up looking for the seeds, maybe a dozen in each Kg. I gave the weed after seed removal to my guide who took me to the farms, he was a cripple who could still outwalk me through the mountains, a serious smoker he was, and understood quality.
        I do not have a clone of her.
        -SamS



        Originally posted by Ganja 13 View Post
        View Image

        View Image

        I found this amazing sativa (Kerela) phenotype in the Sensi Star Line from Paradise Seeds.

        She had the most amazing lip smacking methol flavour I have ever encountered in cannabis !!!

        The high was absolutely amazing, I'd just lie on the couch after smoking a joint listening to Ol Skool 70's music in absolute amazement and astonishment.
        Amazing high indeed.... very fuckin spiritual with just enough body to it to keep me glued to the couch for 2.5+ hours after smoking one .35 gram joint.

        She was like having an 8 shot expresso in the morning
        Just put me into the zone every time

        God the high had leg's and she had amazing pain relieving properties especially for chronic arthritis.... eliminated my pain totally

        Flowering time was 20.5 weeks (143 days)

        I think your on the right path with the Kerela

        Truely amazing cannabis indeed !!!
        Last edited by Sam_Skunkman; 02-10-2021, 06:29.

        Comment


          #5
          @Sam Skunkman
          Can i ask you what the shortest flowering Plants were you found in the 70s for tropical Strains?

          Im interested especially in SE Asain flowering Times. 13 Weeks? Is that right?
          Also Southafrican, or Middleamerican floweingtimes seemed even shorter, like 12 Weeks?

          Comment


            #6
            I found this amazing sativa (Kerela) phenotype in the Sensi Star Line from Paradise Seeds.
            Boy... looks like your onto something there. Look at that main cola. Standing up proud isnt she? I always liked Paradise's Nebula. Mine smelled like honey, creamed rice pudding and fruit. I crossed it with a few strains to keep the genetics. Will need to get onto something with it, that was a few years ago. But am not really in a place to do the work. But no doubt that one of yours is going to get some ongoing attention. Look forward to the smoke report.
            'If you want to live outside the law... you've got to be honest'. R Zimmerman.

            Comment


              #7
              Originally posted by romanoweed View Post
              @Sam Skunkman
              Can i ask you what the shortest flowering Plants were you found in the 70s for tropical Strains?

              Im interested especially in SE Asain flowering Times. 13 Weeks? Is that right?
              Also Southafrican, or Middleamerican floweingtimes seemed even shorter, like 12 Weeks?
              Flowered where under what photoperiod? S African is not tropical. It flowers faster than 12 weeks, at least what I worked with and sold.
              -SamS

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by Labia Joose View Post
                Boy... looks like your onto something there. Look at that main cola. Standing up proud isnt she? I always liked Paradise's Nebula. Mine smelled like honey, creamed rice pudding and fruit. I crossed it with a few strains to keep the genetics. Will need to get onto something with it, that was a few years ago. But am not really in a place to do the work. But no doubt that one of yours is going to get some ongoing attention. Look forward to the smoke report.
                It was a while ago I mistakenly let her go Labia Jooce..... early 2019. But I will certainly post a smoke report for her.

                Was meaning to do it but wasn't sure if I should as it will be from memory. But smoking Something like this plant from the cannabis world, It just doesn't leave your memory. The experience will be with me for life !

                Comment


                  #9
                  Sadly didn't keep a clone Sam S.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Are the Floweringtimes for the Cambodian, and Durban at Authentc Genetcs Site like from the unworked Line ?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      My question is how many genetic markers are you truly preserving with 1,000 males + 1,000 females, and how would you account for specific gene loss in those numbers?
                      I've seen amazing plants come out of feral isolated populations of land-race (100 or less plants)
                      "Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing there is a field. I'll meet you there. When the soul lies down in that grass the world is too full to talk about." - Rumi

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Cannabis is a wind pollinated plant
                        so were talking a radius of 3o miles
                        when it comes to pollen isolation
                        I think there has been alot of work lately to 3d map the cannabis genome
                        such as the result we see from phylos just to name one work
                        as you see in phylos they have broken the gnome into 5 basic categories

                        Quoted: "The majority color within the reference bars dictates primary subpopulation heritage (Red - Skunk, Blue - OG Kush, Green - Landrace, Purple - Berry, Yellow - Hemp, Orange - CBD). The subpopulation reference bars are generated from all of the representative samples in the Phylos Galaxy. Population structure will continue to evolve as more samples are added to the Galaxy"
                        https://phylos. bio/
                        ^ remove space to activate links
                        Point is there is alot of overlap, focus is on cbd thc lately it seems
                        other people are selecting genes for fiber seed oil etc
                        the genome im guessing is not fully mapped although there is alot of data already collected
                        the genome with overlapping each variety looking kinda like this



                        its those rare genetics we want to save and preserve feral populations
                        the whole thing about preserving diversity where there is no overlap
                        once all the genome that's known is mapped
                        and all the gene markers are known, its all about preservation
                        collect and save,

                        this is a period in time where the best possible breeding can occur a time of cannabis enlightenment





                        Commercial Hemp is now being grown in India and Pakistan
                        Isolate hand pollinate or there be no more pure OP (open pollinated) isolated strains



                        Why don't landraces suffer from inbreeding depression? https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=131668&page=1



                        How many? min of 100 seeds each variety to start
                        Atleast 100, 200 being better

                        cannabis seed bank https://gbis.ipk-gatersleben. de/gbis2i/faces/index.jsf (search cannabis)
                        So if the question is how many do you want to save as many as you can!


                        Get you some wild strains and avoid the commercial aspects live some place canna friendly

                        Landraces
                        Discuss landrace genetics
                        I know you been collecting for years Sam im gonna have to peep your accession list one day!
                        Last edited by acespicoli; 02-11-2021, 05:36.
                        "if" the biggest small word in the dictionary

                        Comment


                          #13
                          science says you need 2000 Plants, to avoid inbreeding depro.
                          Thats specific number for Cannabis by the way.

                          If you now say , with 100 Plants work fine, then i say: how many generations did you test? Did you do this like 100 Generations? Just the counter Question.

                          I think before a propper test you cant make any conclusions.

                          Back to what i seem to here, its that inbreeding depression is not really well studied, its a discovered Pattern at this stage. It always seemed to appear with strong decimation of Individuals.

                          I can attest, when they re-wildered the extinct wolf, they warned from to early exitement, cause the new re-wildered Wulfes were just a handful individuals sent into nature, and could subsequently die out cause tadadad: Inbreeding depression.

                          My feel says ive seen it with my eyes, especially in Aussie Lines i see it so clear (just my feelings)
                          Plants look, well just weak.. It makes sense, cause aussies produce old Imports since the 70s often without so much new added Genematerial, just inbreeding for 50 Years in a small Village quiet often.

                          You know this pale grey look.... im pretty shure i can spot it in extreeme cases.

                          Some say inbreeding depression does not happen if you perform selection like a pro.

                          I counter with saying: you cant really attest until you breed after say 100 generations on a Pro level..
                          I also say: the only place where we know there wont happen inbreeding depression is in a healthy population at Origin in the good old Times(pre 70s), and any diverge from this approved method, is a possible danger lingering, is an expereiment, and saying it doesent happen if breed well, might be a Guess at the moment where you are at Gen 10..
                          After assumably 50 Gems (like in Australias Imported Thai Columian selection) it may show, and i feel i can spot it.

                          In one sentence: if you wanna be a preserver, i think its time to consider aiming on ultrahigh numbers, selected in a community for just one Generation. Until we need to go on.

                          Breed rich, not fast..
                          Its the savest bet if you wann save a Strain as it is.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            i wanna add: most even more studied people say landraces are inbreed.

                            well i agree, but landraces are NOT Bottlenecked acording my findings.

                            There is a book, i guess an Universitybook about how landraces were made, and it says that landraces often seemed to show phenotypical appereance, like a population from differnt geographical Locations would.
                            Im not talking too far geographical locations... Just a certain surrounding area.

                            They are not Bottlenecked, and they are the most potent Weed on earth (my oppinion, i smoked the legends)

                            Here in this book is that Info, site 7 to 26:(its a very short line mentioning the phenotypical expression of differnt Regions):

                            https://books.google.ch/books?hl=de&...ing%22&f=false

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by romanoweed View Post
                              science says you need 2000 Plants, to avoid inbreeding depro.
                              Thats specific number for Cannabis by the way.

                              If you now say , with 100 Plants work fine, then i say: how many generations did you test? Did you do this like 100 Generations? Just the counter Question.

                              I think before a propper test you cant make any conclusions.

                              Back to what i seem to here, its that inbreeding depression is not really well studied, its a discovered Pattern at this stage. It always seemed to appear with strong decimation of Individuals.

                              I can attest, when they re-wildered the extinct wolf, they warned from to early exitement, cause the new re-wildered Wulfes were just a handful individuals sent into nature, and could subsequently die out cause tadadad: Inbreeding depression.

                              My feel says ive seen it with my eyes, especially in Aussie Lines i see it so clear (just my feelings)
                              Plants look, well just weak.. It makes sense, cause aussies produce old Imports since the 70s often without so much new added Genematerial, just inbreeding for 50 Years in a small Village quiet often.

                              You know this pale grey look.... im pretty shure i can spot it in extreeme cases.

                              Some say inbreeding depression does not happen if you perform selection like a pro.

                              I counter with saying: you cant really attest until you breed after say 100 generations on a Pro level..
                              I also say: the only place where we know there wont happen inbreeding depression is in a healthy population at Origin in the good old Times(pre 70s), and any diverge from this approved method, is a possible danger lingering, is an expereiment, and saying it doesent happen if breed well, might be a Guess at the moment where you are at Gen 10..
                              After assumably 50 Gems (like in Australias Imported Thai Columian selection) it may show, and i feel i can spot it.

                              In one sentence: if you wanna be a preserver, i think its time to consider aiming on ultrahigh numbers, selected in a community for just one Generation. Until we need to go on.

                              Breed rich, not fast..
                              Its the savest bet if you wann save a Strain as it is.



                              With 20 members each having 100 seeds its 2000
                              would require some team work
                              I dont know anyone right now that could commit to a 2000 plant field
                              most people just able to grab a few 10 packs it is what it is
                              narrow bottle neck


                              a 100 plant stadium run very possible


                              It is not going to save all the genes in the landrace with 20 groups of 100 plants, it is not the same as 2000 plants (1000 females and 1000 males from seed) in one location freely pollinating each other. Not even close, you should read the papers by J. Crossa then maybe you might understand, it requires you understand a bit of mathematics, that is really needed to understand genetics. All 1000 males need to pollinate all 1000 females to avoid gene loss, anything short will have gene loss every reproduction, it is that simple.
                              Cannabis is a Dioecious, Heterozygous, Obligate Outcrosser, Wind Pollinated, plant, not the same as a tomato which mostly are Homozygous and will breed true even with just one plant. If you understand Dioecious, if you understand Heterozygous, if you understand Obligate Outcrosser, the truth is clear, to maintain or preserve a Cannabis landrace with out gene loss you need 1000 males and 1000 females in one location freely pollinating, more plants is better, but 1000 males and 1000 females are the minimum to avoid gene loss every reproduction.
                              After a few years of reproductions of a landrace using less than 100 plants the genes will be very different than the original landrace, that is not preservation. It is preservation of a small slice of the original landrace pie. You may like the slice, but it is not preservation of the landrace pie. To think it is, is foolish.
                              -SamS
                              Last edited by Sam_Skunkman; 02-11-2021, 06:58.
                              "if" the biggest small word in the dictionary

                              Comment

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