The Deth, Big Sur Holy Weed... Elite as FUck

[star crash]

Interesting discussion fellas. The kind I usually try to stay out of, as I see such as ultimately a rabbit hole… however, a couple points for the sake of clarity. 1.) If we parse the words and phrases Jerry uses in his book, we find that ‘Big Sur Holy Weed’ is not a neologism coined by him. The weed was already known as such. 2.) The beatnik planted a crop using *some* ZP seeds - to say nothing of others he may have been growing as well. Seems plausible this wasn’t his first crop - and the lack of an outright mention of Afghan does not necessarily imply, nor confirm, its absence.

The problem being there is not a large enough sample from the population known as BSHW to engage in proper pursuit of the rejection of the null hypothesis; nor the alternate hypothesis of BSHW and MIS being one and the same. I think a definitive answer would only be found with sequencing.

And what of the ‘Perry the Monk’ version? Oy vey…

I agree with Roms that Afghan was here and being grown in the states pre-‘80s. (I don’t buy the alternate hypothesis though.) There’s a lot of focus on California & PNW, apparently forgetting the long-storied history of pot growing in Kentucky (hemp as early as 1775). A climate that would not be as conducive as California to finishing long flowering varieties. And many old-time growers kept operations to intrastate, rather than interstate, commerce. (Johnny Boone should’ve taken note.) So the lack of widespread public knowledge of Afghan - especially considering it likely at the time was used more as a tool than a standalone var - does not exclude its possibility/likelihood in the ‘60s and ‘70s.

My stance on it is: “whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.” That said, I am just going to grow these plants, share some updates with y’all, and have my popcorn ready for the competing theories.



Thanks MAHA. No real stem coloring at this point. Is this a trait that would show earlier as opposed to later? I hope to find at least one winner from the seven. If I do I plan to self her. I also selfed a cut of S.A.G.E. and will eventually grow ~10 of those to see what pops up and if a winner is in there, let some BSHW pollen fly.





It is looking as though I have an established cut of each plant with the exception of #4. She was really slow to root and as soon as one of the three cuts rooted I transplanted her. She’s really struggling to take hold. Overall the seed plant is one of the happiest, if not the happiest. Her fans are smaller than the other plants, but with similar shaped blades. The difference from #1 can be seen in the background. The fun days are just around the corner now!

#4, day 31:



star crash do you have another house where you sleep?

Shmavis ... Funny you should say that I’ve literally grown myself out of house and home.... Almost ready for a break

 

[MAHA KALA]

During the 80s Afghan war the indica brought back in America was different and much more from Pakistan and South Afghanistan, not from the North of Afghanistan occupated by the URSS. That's why the MIS is underrated or unrecognized as its true value, that's not the same indica stuff.

Vibes Maha, try your luck with my seeds or give a try with some landrace from both sides of the Hindu Kush and you will understand what i mean. Nowadays over indica selection/breeding is far from the source landrace and some cannabinoids disappeared imho. Indica vibes are more complex and vast also i suggest to test and smoke some Nepalese who is much more comparable to MIS than the ancestor kind of indica X18 or Deep Chunk. It's by going back to the source and landrace that you can round the circle of knowledge, not by searching through modern strains over breeded i think.

Some new BSHW can only be recover by selecting landrace, from all around the world no problemo!

I know that MIS is hybrid. I grew MIS from GN. straight from Afghanistan. and it is like I said. very average plants, as they are used for making hash and not for smoking flowers. I would repeat myself. no indica hybrid cant close to real sativa in its properties. okay. first grow bshw and let me know what you think. compare it you your Mazar. prove is in the smoke in the end. bshw is very good bred line, bred for smoking flowers. for me better stock than those landraces from Afghanistan. much easier to select keeper.

 

[MAHA KALA]

Interesting discussion fellas. The kind I usually try to stay out of, as I see such as ultimately a rabbit hole… however, a couple points for the sake of clarity. 1.) If we parse the words and phrases Jerry uses in his book, we find that ‘Big Sur Holy Weed’ is not a neologism coined by him. The weed was already known as such. 2.) The beatnik planted a crop using *some* ZP seeds - to say nothing of others he may have been growing as well. Seems plausible this wasn’t his first crop - and the lack of an outright mention of Afghan does not necessarily imply, nor confirm, its absence.

this is only speculation. nothing else. he was not only growing it, he was also smuggling it and sourced seeds from smuggled weed, not from imported hashish... just give us some proof, it was not mexican weed but afghan weed. and it will be clear. till that we will have to believe Jerry. any proof that afghan was growing at large scale in Mexico at 60s? as weed growing in USA at 60s and 70s was really small portion compared to imported weed from mainly Colombia and Mexico. it was all import mainly. no sign of growing indicas commercially till 80s, when indoor growing started.

that somebody somewhere grew few afghans mean nothing.

the article was from New York Times, but it describes weed from all USA, even there is interview with smokers from California. it is not article about weed in New York state LOL.

so holy weed is afghan? give us proof. it should be mentioned somewhere. afghan hybrid that smokes better than sativa? again give us proof guys haha nobody have ever seen that. I state that no afghan hybrid comes close in quality of flowers to old school colombian or mexican. I dont say they were pure sativas, I have my doubts especially about colombian gold and panama red, but far from 50/50 hybrid LOL

The name BSHW was coined by Jerry Kamstra. It was pure Zacatecas Purple sativa landrace. Giant plants with all purple colas. There was one local BSHW cross called SAGE (Sativa Afghani Genetic Equilibrium I think it was) bred in that area that was an Afghani x Zac Purple hybrid. What most people have out there now and are calling BSHW is really SAGE, or some other local early cross of Zac Purple. As for who brought Zac Purple to Big Sur and when is anyone's guess. One claim is that a guy maned Danebo brought it back to Lucia. Another is that Perry the Monk got ahold of it and grew it at the local monastery. More likley it was just another strain of many loads of Mexican weed that moved through Big Sur. Someone planted some seeds of it there, and grew it locally for maybe a decade or so. In the late 60's and early 70s most local grown weed in Monterey and Santa Cruz County was from landrace bag weed seeds. Hybrids were not very common until the later 70s when skunk and other local hybrids appeared.

yes, so what we have now is SAGE. but Holy Weed still exists in its original sativa form in Oregon.

I think I provided enough information to show that holy weed was sativa first and mazar was added later, there cant be no doubt about it - of course you can doubt anything, but fantasy is not reality. as I said, sorry I have to repeat myself, there is still original holy weed without any mazar or afghan in it. and it was colombian/mexican mix. no doubt about it.

I am haze lover, and I know that what I have is straightly related to weed from Santa Cruz like Haze in its character. and they were growing seeds from smuggled weed from Mexico and Colombia. in the end you can ask Skunkman if they grew some afghans there. hehe

 

[Shmavis]

Shmavis ... Funny you should say that I’ve literally grown myself out of house and home.... Almost ready for a break

I couldn’t help but notice! A beautiful problem you have though, and obviously a well deserved break is in order.

MAHA KALA

If not Sam, maybe we could go by the words of his friend - presumably an equally credible source - in this writeup: https://www.cannabisbusinesstimes.co...curse-of-kush/

“2. From its seeming to me - or to everyone - to be so, it doesn't follow that it is so. What we can ask is whether it can make sense to doubt it.”

Grabbed this pic last night, day 34:

I like it because it shows how #1 is almost setting her top like a spiral staircase and also it shows how she towers over #5, to her right in the center. (The plant front left is not BSHW.) I hope to get some comparative bud shots tonight…

 

[Mtn. Nectar]

BSHW = sativa rocket ship .....indica genes spoil the true quality of the original..........

ganj on.....

 

[Roms]

no indica hybrid cant close to real sativa in its properties.

That's ignore connoisseur selection of MIS and other landraces from North Pakistan, Cachemire and Himachal Pradesh to Nepal. Simply THCV correlations with no CBD to understand and realize i would say.

 

[MAHA KALA]

hey Shmavis, there is misunderstanding. I dont deny possibility of growing indicas in that time. I say it was so small portion compared to import from south america...

That's ignore connoisseur selection of MIS and other landraces from North Pakistan, Cachemire and Himachal Pradesh to Nepal. Simply THCV correlations with no CBD to understand and realize i would say.

you can call me ignorant. I call you fantasist. I see no proof for it. you named hashish areas. I mentioned several times how they select plants there. and how they use it. you ignore that it seems. like I said these would not get chance if there is not necessity to go indoors and most "indica" lovers dont smoke these you mentioned, but mixes with sativa anyway. it has its qualities, but no way it smokes like sativa. that is ignorant statement to me.. especially charas sativas has very short lasting effect when flowers are smoked, they are for charas you know, and afghan landraces have so leafy and larfy, moldy buds, it is not nice. many many average plants. interesting for somebody, but not for those who are searching for cerebral qualities, there is thai and colombian for it. selected for smoking herb for years, not for hash. I state again: MIS cant come close to real colombian or thai as far as cerebral qualities go.

by the way your MIS is not presoviet MIS, so it is very probable it is mixed with modern genes with mexican or colombian sativa in it

cheers.

 

[MAHA KALA]

BSHW = sativa rocket ship .....indica genes spoil the true quality of the original..........

ganj on.....

another guy who was there, and know there is sativa in it. holy weed on.

 

[romanoweed]

Nice discussion. Its nice to wonder about heritages.

I personally imagine Big Sur. might be just so short flowering cause it comes form a Mountain. Its an unexpected high Mountain in Mexico. It snows up there at the Top..

It makes me unshure about any Afghai influence that the 3 moderate flowering "Races" in hot Climate are actually just form Mountainregions..

-Mexiacan Big Sur
-Durban
-Vietnamese (is also pretty short 13 weeks)

Were there shortflowering Columbians too? im asking cause it has very very high Mountains too.
Probably Columbia is too Wet to allow for Indica-Lines. Meixo and Southafrican Drakensberg looks actually very dry.. Thats probably an important factor.

It just is funny how we associate Mountains not with Equatorial Regions, (cause its overall warmer, and shure Snow-limit is at higher altitude than in a colder Region. But in the end it gets freezing in Mexico too.. At the mountains.)

For me its rather hard to imagine the opposite: that there cant be a an Indica at Mexicos , Durbans, possibly Vietnam Mountains. (Vietnam is humid)

 

[romanoweed]

Elevation Map. Red is high

i just loved the Hoabacs (vietnamese) trippyness.. 13 weeks, and trippy. not insane like the best legendary viet / Thai weed, but paradisean, not really body, not endless up, but really , i can call it psychedelic. like a shroomy feeling

 

[OregonBorn]

yes, so what we have now is SAGE. but Holy Weed still exists in its original sativa form in Oregon.

I think I provided enough information to show that holy weed was sativa first and mazar was added later, there cant be no doubt about it - of course you can doubt anything, but fantasy is not reality. as I said, sorry I have to repeat myself, there is still original holy weed without any mazar or afghan in it. and it was colombian/mexican mix. no doubt about it.

I am haze lover, and I know that what I have is straightly related to weed from Santa Cruz like Haze in its character. and they were growing seeds from smuggled weed from Mexico and Colombia. in the end you can ask Skunkman if they grew some afghans there. hehe

Sorry, I do not agree. That is not what I saw living there. There being the South Coast (AKA: Big Sewer) when all this happened in the 1960s through the 1990s. People seem to confuse SAGE with BSHW. And BSHW with HAZE. There seem to be two distinct strains called SAGE now. Back in the day (1970s) there was only one strain of SAGE that I was ever aware of. The Big Sur version of SAGE was a cross of BSHW (Zac Purple) and an Afghani grown at first by a few guys inland in the Santa Lucia mountains. Also BSHW was never a Colombian cross that I saw. And never an indica hybrid. I still have quite a few original Big Sur strains from the 1970s and they are all sativas, and a few are sativa hybrids. No indica. BSHW was a Zac Purple Mexican landrace. I have never seen any reference to the contrary from that era. The BSHW that I have (tiny purple seeds) was simply called Big Sur Purple. They grow into HUGE late flowering and late finishing sativa plants with all purple buds. No Colombian or indica in them at all. The other SAGE strain I gather was Haze based. Haze is said to have been a Colombian x Mexican cross, and then maybe Kerala and Thai thrown in. But that is conjecture, and the story seems to vary. I never saw anything called Haze in the 1960s or 1970s myself. I saw and smoked a lot of weed and hash from all over the world there, as well as the local stuff.

Believe what you will though. I do not have to ask anyone what the weed scene was about. I was there "distributing" and growing weed myself. And I still have a lot of the seeds from plants grown there from the Old Coast Road, Pacific Valley, Pfeiffer Ridge, Carmel Valley, Prunedale, Arroyo Seco, La Honda, Los Gatos, etc etc.

 

[MAHA KALA]

I believe you. nice to hear it from first hand. thanks for sharing bro.

may be it was not called haze in your circle, but definately that weed, we call haze now, or something similar was around Santa Cruz, no? it is just my subjective impression, that this bshw I have, has similar character to haze, in some traits, not in all traits. I dont say that haze and bshw are identical.

 

[OregonBorn]

Nice discussion. Its nice to wonder about heritages.

I personally imagine Big Sur. might be just so short flowering cause it comes form a Mountain. Its an unexpected high Mountain in Mexico. It snows up there at the Top..

It makes me unshure about any Afghai influence that the 3 moderate flowering "Races" in hot Climate are actually just form Mountainregions..

-Mexiacan Big Sur
-Durban
-Vietnamese (is also pretty short 13 weeks)

Were there shortflowering Columbians too? im asking cause it has very very high Mountains too.
Probably Columbia is too Wet to allow for Indica-Lines. Meixo and Southafrican Drakensberg looks actually very dry.. Thats probably an important factor.

It just is funny how we associate Mountains not with Equatorial Regions, (cause its overall warmer, and shure Snow-limit is at higher altitude than in a colder Region. But in the end it gets freezing in Mexico too.. At the mountains.)

For me its rather hard to imagine the opposite: that there cant be a an Indica at Mexicos , Durbans, possibly Vietnam Mountains. (Vietnam is humid)

I never have grown any short flowering Colombian landraces or SE Asian strains myself. For example, growing outdoors, landrace bag weed beans of Cambodian Red, Vietnam Black, Colombian Gold all turned into plants that flower late starting in October and finish ripening seeds in late December or even into January. That was the case in central coastal California anyway. 1977 was a drought year, so we could grow these late strains really late outdoors. South African and Mexican landraces finish about the same by mid or late October. That is when the rains typically hit in California, so of the sativas they were more suited to growing outdoors there. Indoor weed was not that common until later. Some grew in greenhouses in the Salinas and Pajaro Valleys and could grow late season stuff. Indicas and indica hybrids cam along and changed that though, moving up the harvest times as they finish a lot earlier. Most of my 1980 and earlier seeds are all sativas, and there is no indica in them.

As for my purple strain from Big Sur which was a Zacatecas landrace, it blooms and finishes later than SE Mexican strains, but earlier than Colombians. You do not have to believe me about that though, you can read Starks book, Marijuana Potency or his later expanded book Marijuana Chemistry and he lists the flowering and finishing times for strains all around the world. People think that there is some stratified latitude or altitude aspect to ripening times for new world landraces, but I have not seen that to be the case. Colombians are obviously originated from SE Asia more recently (in the last century or so), and bloom late and long like SE Asian strains. Mexicans landraces are much older and are recorded as being first imported to New Spain from Manila in records dating back to 1525. The indios worked those lines for many centuries and made them into teas for most of that time. Only in the last 150 years or so did smoking weed become popular in Mexico. I do not know when indicas were first bred into local California weed. It may date back earlier in small grows, but I never saw any in volume until the late 1970s there. At that time we could still get seedy Colombian lids for $40. Or local grown second generation Mexican and Colombian red hair sativa sinsemilla for $60-80. I saw very little indica hybrids grown on the South Coast until 1978 or so. Most of it was semi-seeded sinsemilla from Mexican strains grown in Garrapata Cyn, the Old Coast Road and Polo Colorado. I knew several breeders working on African and Afghani hybrids, but they were small volume. My grows were all landrace sativas until 1984 when my brother bought me some beans from Nevil's catalog. That changed things around some. But I thought that $5 a seed was ridiculous and I kept growing Oaxacan and Colombian gold as I prefer old school sativas. That was also when weed prices skyrocketed and the grow scene changed completely. Growing moved north to Humboldt and Mendo where the real dynamo hybrids were hatched.

 

[romanoweed]

Sounds like shortflowering BSHW was rarely seen in the 70s. What was the floweringtime of the South Mexican you saw?

I could make another Theory, that not every Weed was exported the same often. Probably nobody would go and export weed from the Top of Mountain.
But thats strictly Phantasy. What was again the Flowering on the BSHW thats around today?

Probably what ive seen from Vietnam was not representative, but of the 10 Viet-Strains from 70s ive seen online, two were 13 weekers, the other one/two were Fat.
Probably all Hempinfused, but probably not, who knows.

 

[OregonBorn]

I believe you. nice to hear it from first hand. thanks for sharing bro.

may be it was not called haze in your circle, but definately that weed, we call haze now, or something similar was around Santa Cruz, no? it is just my subjective impression, that this bshw I have, has similar character to haze, in some traits, not in all traits. I dont say that haze and bshw are identical.

I never saw or heard of any local grown weed around Santa Cruz or anywhere else called Haze then. Not until the late 1980s when I was in Los Gatos. I never saw any really good local grown until the later 1970s, and that was mostly second generation landrace grown from bag weed seed. In the 1980s the local weed got rather potent. Some of it was African, some of it was early hybrid, some was really good landrace. Anything that was really good back then? People beat a path to your door. Word got out fast. Ganjja or Thai was around. Or good Colombian. Or Lebanese red hash. Good stuff sold itself and sold out very fast. I did not intend to imply that you said that Haze and BSHW were the same. But SAGE has come down as being either Haze based (as is posted on Leafly these days), or BSHW based (old school local lore). In that sense they get confused. There was a LOT of weed around Central California in the 1970s.

 

[OregonBorn]

Sounds like shortflowering BSHW was rarely seen in the 70s. What was the floweringtime of the South Mexican you saw?

I could make another Theory, that not every Weed was exported the same often. Probably nobody would go and export weed from the Top of Mountain.
But thats strictly Phantasy. What was again the Flowering on the BSHW thats around today?

Probably what ive seen from Vietnam was not representative, but of the 10 Viet-Strains from 70s ive seen online, two were 13 weekers, the other one/two were Fat.
Probably all Hempinfused, but probably not, who knows.

Growing sinsemilla and advanced breeding methods and available breeding stock was not well understood or available locally on a wider scale until the later 1970s in Central California. I did not know how to grow it correctly until a Mexican gardener showed me how around 1977 or so. Most of the local grow in the canyons and hills along the South Coast were small scale landrace Mexican red hair that I saw. Some were hybrids and some were SE Asian strains, and a few were Zac Purple. No one there that I knew called that BSHW. It was just Big Sur Purple. Names were rare other than skunk, purple, or some location where it was grown like Arroyo Seco or Garrapata. Most of it had some seeds. Which was good for me to grow them later. People did not know that pollen can travel a long way. Or that herms happened, especially with SE Asian and Colombian strains. With the exception of drought years, Colombians and SE Asian finish too late and get rot from the rains that usually come to the west coast from October through March. Growing indoors was not that common or well understood then. Some grew in greenhouses. Now? We debate details unheard of then. Like light dep and bulb temperature in K values. Never mind modern diode lighting, CO2, autos, cloning methods, breeding technique, or good curing methods.

Flowering times for outdoor grown SE Mexican typically finishes in mid to late October. Like Durban Poison. I still grow these but mostly for seed so I run them longer than they have to so the seeds ripen fully. It gets dicey if the rains come early. And of course the fires are always an issue in late summer. I cannot speak for other BSHW strain flowering times out there. The Zac Purple that I have (call it purple, holy, unholy or whatever) starts to bloom in mid to late September and finishes in late November. All the Viet landrace strains that I have grown are late and long blooming, on the same timeline as Colombians and Thai. But I only have a few of the old Viet and Cambo red strains. They all go really late. I have a lot of different old Colombian and Thai strains. Colombian weed was seedy as all f*ck. Seeds in Thai sticks were few and many were immature, but they were there, and my friends typically gave me their seeds as they knew that I collected them.

 

[Limeygreen]

Oregonborn, any chance you have a few photos to show of your zactecas? I am just curious how it looks especially compared to the bshw we see.

 

[grayeyes]

Oregonborn is a friend and someone I believe. I am not sure yet what I am growing this spring, It may be the 14-16 wk Durban Poison I have or the Citrus Farmer or both. Or that intriguing Santa Marta I found a while ago.

I have to say it is humbling to look in the closet and see more than 25 strains to choose from when pondering a bowl. The DP x CB was a success I think.

 

[grayeyes]

Not sure why the OP decided to use profanity in his post. Guess he was showing off he knew nasty words.

 

[MAHA KALA]

I never saw or heard of any local grown weed around Santa Cruz or anywhere else called Haze then. Not until the late 1980s when I was in Los Gatos. I never saw any really good local grown until the later 1970s, and that was mostly second generation landrace grown from bag weed seed. In the 1980s the local weed got rather potent. Some of it was African, some of it was early hybrid, some was really good landrace. Anything that was really good back then? People beat a path to your door. Word got out fast. Ganjja or Thai was around. Or good Colombian. Or Lebanese red hash. Good stuff sold itself and sold out very fast. I did not intend to imply that you said that Haze and BSHW were the same. But SAGE has come down as being either Haze based (as is posted on Leafly these days), or BSHW based (old school local lore). In that sense they get confused. There was a LOT of weed around Central California in the 1970s.

great read man. thanks for sharing. what are smells for original holy weed? is it sandalwood, spice and grapes?