The Coco-Coir Experiment Thread

[aeric]

Neptune: Might sound crazy cuz i dont recall anyone else saying this but i prefer 1:3 ratio of calmag to PBP in soil and 1:2 ratio in coir, but local water quality always plays a role, results vary. So IMO up the calmag to fit that ratio and if that doesn't work perhaps bump up the entire regimen just a little more. The redness is more than likely MG, some have said N. The yellowing is classic N as it is even and not blotchy or patterned. Those 1st PK need more or longer cycles. IMVHO Mr. Neptune.

 

[clowntown]

aeric, what's your local water quality like? Do you adjust / compensate the amount of CalMag, dependent on the amount of PBP?

 

[-VT-]

Thanks ThaiPhoon

Thanks ThaiPhoon

Has anyone experimented using coco and earthworm compost mixed together? Or coco and some good soil? I grow using homemade organic nutes. I have a soil mix that I use coco in at about 25%. I have also just made an experimental soil mix using equal volumetric parts of coco, rice husk hulls, and compost/ewc. The plants seem to enjoy that mix. Oh yeah I have added dolomite to that mix at 2 tbs/gal. as well.

Welcome to the world of coco brotha

Silver Surfer OG used dolomite lime and EWC if I remember correctly....others have also....

I'm glad you're motivated to experiment to see for yourself.....please share your findings and observations here

Thanks!!

 

[Dozee]

what about ebb n flow coco.

 

[3dDream]

Here is my WIP:

I do a 100% coco smartvalve (from an autopot system) setup. It is like a wick meets ebb n flow setup. I am using small pots with 1" of perlite at the bottom for drainage and have a piece of root control fabric at the very bottom of the pots to prevent root clogs and root lock. So far so good. The valve floods the base, the plants drink the nute solution, the base dries up and then floods again. I do 2 plants per valve, this way plants can drink in what they need. I also mix the res with air and a pump to circulate. Other than the mixing pump, the whole setup is gravity run.

 

[gdawg]

killer thread VT!

 

[-VT-]

Thanks for keeping this thread on the radar fellas Hey 3dDream that sounds ingenious...there is a thread titled "does anyone bottom feed coco"....your input would be appreciated in that thread I'm sure...thanks again bro

I'm a "budgetary experimenter"...lol I run out of stuff and have to make due (experiment).....I'm out of PBP hydro-organic veg nutes and am vegging With PBP hydro-organic bloom nutes, with better results than I've ever had vegging so many strains in coco

I experimented with molasses in bloom (no money for Sweet...kinda got a theme here...feel me?)...anyways too broke for Sweet I got molasses and 1 tsp/gal is just not enough with soft water....(water quality is a key variable..especially in coco cause of the Cal/Mag)

I had a couple Trainwreck's rooted for a side by side (while back) and had pH lockout/burn....the plant "watered as needed" was so badly gone I killed it....the plant watered daily recovered and is thriving...I've always felt that if I have a problem...I'd rather water daily as opposed to "waiting for the next watering"....I'll do another comparison, as I have several Trainwrecks the same age and size....I'll follow up with some findings in a few months...in bloom I'll start the different watering approaches (this is only pertinent experience for handwaterers)

 

[BlindDate]

I once did a side by side with one bucket using pure Canna coco and the other using a 50% coco 50% Hydroton mix. The pure coco outperformed the mixed.

When you think about it, coco is so fine that it fills every niche and cranny surrounding the larger sized mixed in material such as Perlite, Hydroton, large coco chunks, etc. When Hydroton balls are against each other there is a mechanical air gap in between. If coco is thrown into it, the air gap is filled. All these mixes do is reduce the volume of the container. I felt pretty stupid after thinking about it.

I hear people say that they mix the coco for better drainage. Well duuuhh!, of course it's going to drain better since there is less coco to retain the water. That does not change the amount of water retained by coco. It's like dumping a gallon of water into a 5 gallon bucket of coco and a 1 gallon bucket. Which one is going to have more runoff?

The only way to create a true air gap in coco is to use a filler material that:
1. Does not retain much moisture.
2. Is permeable to plant roots
3. Is not permeable to coco fiber

What are your thoughts?

 

[Guest]

Like I have been saying for a little while now... people need to stick with the pure coco. If you want extra oxygen to the root zone, use a coarser coco mix.

 

[Rosy Cheeks]

Has anyone experimented using coco and earthworm compost mixed together? Or coco and some good soil? I grow using homemade organic nutes. I have a soil mix that I use coco in at about 25%. I have also just made an experimental soil mix using equal volumetric parts of coco, rice husk hulls, and compost/ewc. The plants seem to enjoy that mix.

Yep, done that. This is how I stumbled into coco. I generally grow on hydroponic NFT trays. My motherplants were all in soil though, Biobizz All-Mix (20% sphagnum peat moss, 35% garden peat, 10% organic Worm-Humus, 30% perlite and 5% Pre-Mix) to be precise.
For re-using the all-mix, BioBizz recommends adding coco choir. As I'm a studious lad, I read up on coco and realized it's because coco coir's coarser fibres resists compaction better than soil. Adding it to old soils therefore helps it to aerate better. I kept adding more coco to my soils and were getting almost as good results as in fresh soil. But I was still using the coco in the same sense as I was using soil, letting the medium dry out between waterings. It was when I started treating the now mostly coco with some soil mixes as a hydroponic medium, with constant feeding and run to waste, and using hydroponic nutrients rather than soil nutrients, that I started getting really good results. Then one day I did 100% coco coir, with hydroponic nutrients (GH 3 part), then with nutrients developed for coco (Canna A+B), and I was a coco convert.
That is, My NFT trays are still more performant than coco as a medium, but I've now scrapped the soil all together. Let me sum up my conclusions in a few short phrases:

It is pointless to amend the coco with a draining substance (inert or not), such as perlite. Quality coco coir (such as Canna coco) never absorbs enough liquid to cause overwatering. Since perlite has no caption exchange capacity (CEC), and coco has a very good CEC, you're simply diminishing your medium's capacity to deliver nutrients to your plants by diluting it with a substance that has a lower CEC than coco.

Adding a draining substance to coco simply means you have to water more often, and I fail to see the advantage in that. The single advantage could be as prevention against salt build-ups (which the run-to-waste generally takes care of anyway), but there are other ways to deal with that. An occasional flush, or organic feed in between mineral-based feeds, and you have no problem with build-ups.

Mixing coco with soil serves primarily to improve the aerating quality of the soil. Coco's CEC is generally better than soil, and it aerates better, so once you realize you have a better medium than soil in coco (except perhaps high quality soils such as the All-Mix, which is close to equivalent), you ask yourself why continue with soil?

If you're an organic aficiando, then I would say high quality soil is a better medium than coco, probably because the right type of soil composition is a better playground for microbiological life, and its interaction with organic nutrients.
Coco's better to use with mineral-based nutrients, as a hydroponic medium. It doesn't replace soil, it replaces rockwool (which is still the best medium for certain types of hydroponic growing).

 

[-VT-]

A neat experiment....

A neat experiment....

Take a small container and fill it with fine grade coco (I use Botanicare bales), such as canna or b'cuzz.....really pack it in (notice it's spongy)....now....once it is fully saturated and packed in tightly....water it again....look for tiny bubbles at the surface....very simple experiment....even when fully saturated, the coco is aerated when watered.....

I once grew in a 50/50 coco/perlite mix.....I'm amazed with the increased root mass of pure coco...the growth rates are better in pure coco....more room for roots to wiggle around and eat up those nutes, as Blindate mentioned

Moreover, with coco/perlite (fox farm chunky perlite and fine grade coco) I had "stringy', thin roots....with pure coco I get thick white roots....the air/water ratio of my coco is optimal, I'm convinced of this...having tried both pure coco and coco/perlite...also used hydrotron/coco/perlite...on and on...my experimentation has led me to conclude that pure coco is superior

If you want extra oxygen to the root zone, use a coarser coco mix.

Agreed...or increase waterings

If you're an organic aficiando, then I would say high quality soil is a better medium than coco, probably because the right type of soil composition is a better playground for microbiological life, and its interaction with organic nutrients.
Coco's better to use with mineral-based nutrients, as a hydroponic medium. It doesn't replace soil, it replaces rockwool (which is still the best medium for certain types of hydroponic growing).

Thanks for posting Rosy Cheeks This is why I like PBP...pH buffering, a weak, soft mix....that's newbie friendly...it's a mixture of organic and mineral nutes. IMO, all nutes are organic....mineral nutes are mined....phosphates, and other minerals, are byproducts of old dinosaur remains etc....so, mineral nutes are, well...organic poop nutes ...but, that's just my opinion....I get both with PBP hydro-organic nutes

In a broader context...the only tangible advantage of organics in coco, in my uneducated opinion, is if the organic coco grower is recycling the medium and/or growing bushes....as with vineyards....they have a long crop cycle and breaking down organic matter over time is not a problem, as is the case if a medium is recycled....nothing goes to waste and so forth...and less "salt buildup"...plenty of threads dedicated to this subject, most likely....I've harvested coco buds with CNS17 and PBP....when flushed properly the CNS17 MTF tasted every bit as good as previous PBP runs.....I've also harvested PBP buds that taste like shit....

 

[surfingrob]

VT!!!

PLEASSSSSE tell me EXACTLY how you grew with cns17 in coco!!!!!!! Like what PH and strengths? How often you watered? I've been trying to get the cns17 and coco thing for a while but I can't seem to get it dialed. I've been a successful hydro and organic soil grower for a long time now but coco coir seems to be giving me problems. It might be my coco though, its a brand no one seems to have heard of although being omri certified.

 

[-VT-]

Best advice I can give is to experiment and "see" for yourself (as in read your plants) Hard to answer your questions as I have tried several approaches.....and have had source water changes along the way.....
Always a good idea to experiment...try things out....at least then, one can speak with authority, based on personal experiences and comparisons....
Whatever you decide....keep the medium wet.....I've tried several approaches (including wet/dry cycles in veg), and I've determined, by experimenting (you know....."seeing things for myself") , that the hydro approach is superior....

two observations:

1. with mineral nutes a dry medium most definitely creates salt buildup...visual salt buildup....with a daily flood the salts do not dry up and do not buildup and "clog" things up (which I believe leads to problems)

2. With organics or PBP (hydro-organic) the daily irrigation is good for microbial activity and nutrient conversion....a wet medium is like a tea, brewing goodies for the root zone (same benefit recirc gives hydro....future debates have to resolve that one )...if it dries out, seems to me that, well.....the levels and rates of nutrient conversion and microbial activity would be significantly reduced

The plants with mediums that stay wet (moist at a minimum) are more vigorous....With nutrients high in Ca (which is all "coco nutes" really are...companies add Cal/Mag to their mixes) don't let pH get over 6.0 (especially with CNS17)

With CNS17 don't run pH over 6.0...ever....
CNS17 is not "coco specific"....

Here's some shots of coco buds grown with CNS17 "all purpose" nutrient....

MTF








​

And CNS17 Shiva shots....









If applied properly...most major nutes (some need additives) work well in coco...and unless folks have done side by sides, and documented the comparison somehow...I just dismiss superiority claims.....it's good to experiment and share knowledge, in lieu of propoganda....I do not rag on other nutes I have not tried (never have)....
Don't be afraid to try the nutes that meet your budget...CNS17 is very inexpensive

peace​

 

[clowntown]

buzzzzzump

 

[guest5703]

I like how well that CNS17 works, pretty impressive. Maybe when I go bigger I will switch to that. Everything looks really good bro can't wait to see you finish! Peace

 

[PGW]

I have an idea that I'm gonna try. It may be a failure but, since one of coco's great benefits is aeration to the root zone, I'm going to put in two 12" long airstones in Botanicare's Ready-Gro mix in a couple of weeks when I start the new girls. I would be using B'Cuzz pure coco (my favorite) but hydro guy stopped carrying it. So Botanicare's Ready-Gro is what I'm using.

Has anyone done this? I've searched a bit, but haven't found anything as of yet.

 

[clowntown]

I've heard of some people trying it in soil (don't remember the results)...

 

[PGW]

Thanks clowntown. We'll see what comes of it throughout the next couple of months unless someone here can show me how it will be a miserable failure.

 

[cesartime]

-VT- , mind if i pick your brain for a sec on that CNS...?

-VT- , mind if i pick your brain for a sec on that CNS...?

First off, lemme thank clowntown for bumping this thread, this just happens to be a time when im having issues with the CNS and considering switching....

That being said. VT, what brands of coco do you use/have used?? Have you used other brands of coco and had different/subpar results??

reason I ask is because I am currently a loyal CNS convert, 25bux a gallon is unbeatable... So it works like gangbusters in veg (gives a lil more red/purp stems then id like) but it has accellerated growth compared to my previous use of PBP so it works well...

Well thats until i flip to flower... I run 2 strains now (I know that diff strains need diff feed ratios and is part of my problem.) But anyhoo, I am running one rezzy, I run 20gal @ a time 650ppm CNS, 150ppm B'cuzz pk 13/14 and i get my pH down for a final ppm of around 810ppm on my milaukee ppm pen...

So week 4-5 comes along and I switch to straight 800ppm CNS feed, and somewhere in the time between me weening the plants onto the bloom feed, They seem to go completely apeshit for lack of magnesium??? Im not exactly sure what the deff is, but it starts as brown spots on leaves, then the leaves yellow and die off, like clockwork... from the bottom of the plant to the top...

Which has led me to swtich to floranova during this run, and the results are pretty good, ive seen no more defficiencies, and the nice growth has returned. Its just that I dont want to pay 22bux for a qt. of floranova if i can get a whole gal of CNS for 25bux...

Now during all of this my sensi star plants have remained doing just fine, wether the CNS or the Floranova the stars keep pumping on, I want to know your opinion VT on wether the mag additive, (cal-mag plus) is something that is needed depending on the strain or not??

Ive used cal-mag plus before, but that was much earlier and maybe i just sucked so much at my craft back then that i couldnt discern the difference....

Now however ive became a lil more proficcent and id like to be able to utilize the Cal-Mag plus with the CNS and keep my bloom feed dirt cheap, but the one part Floranova makes it hard to worry about the idiocyncricies and just go with with what works best...

Anyhoo, sorry bout my rant, im drunk as a skunk off a pint of cognac and I just wanted to get your opinion on on wether the cal mag is a nesseceary supplement to the CNS or could a product like the Sensi-Cal product is better??

I read alot on the forums and see that people reccomend the sensi-cal product as much if not more than the cal-mag product from botanicare, because of the lack of excess Nitro in the sensi-cal mix?

So have you had any experience with the sensi-cal mix? Or any other cal-mag supplement??? I want to make the CNS work, but with this one stubborn strain, it appears as if maintaing a balance of feeding enough mag without giving too much Nitro in bloom seems to be my crux...

Ok, im done ranting now, im gonna call it a night....

Peace.

Thanx for the reply.

 

[-VT-]

My test runs & experimentaion with CNS-17

My test runs & experimentaion with CNS-17

Thanks clowntown

Hey, cesartime, what's up bro? Lemme start by saying that I had many problems with CNS-17....all of which were grower related, in my view

That being said. VT, what brands of coco do you use/have used?? Have you used other brands of coco and had different/subpar results??

I have only used Botanicare coco. I started out using a premix from Botanicare....then went to a 50/50 coco/perlite mix...then switched to pure coco (which in itself is a significant adjustment IME)...so I did have much different results when I switched from the pelite mix to straight up coco

reason I ask is because I am currently a loyal CNS convert, 25bux a gallon is unbeatable... So it works like gangbusters in veg (gives a lil more red/purp stems then id like) but it has accellerated growth compared to my previous use of PBP so it works well...

In my experience, the red stems is from too much Cal/Mag, or nutrient overdose...if there is an imbalance in the medium this could lead to a lockout, from overfert or too much Cal/Mag....this potential problem is not limited to Cal/Mag+....but if excess N is an issue with your regimen...then an alternative product would be highly superior, as the others do not have 2% N....

Well thats until i flip to flower... I run 2 strains now (I know that diff strains need diff feed ratios and is part of my problem.) But anyhoo, I am running one rezzy, I run 20gal @ a time 650ppm CNS, 150ppm B'cuzz pk 13/14 and i get my pH down for a final ppm of around 810ppm on my milaukee ppm pen...

What pH range to you maintain? With CNS-17, I think it's best to stay between 5.4 and 6.0.....
What is your source water quality?
I do not use meters...I liked blooming at 2 tsp/gal of CNS-17 bloom, so I relate better to weight measurements....and I've always preferred EC... maybe you just need to lower pH and/or ramp up the nutes a bit....

So week 4-5 comes along and I switch to straight 800ppm CNS feed, and somewhere in the time between me weening the plants onto the bloom feed, They seem to go completely apeshit for lack of magnesium??? Im not exactly sure what the deff is, but it starts as brown spots on leaves, then the leaves yellow and die off, like clockwork... from the bottom of the plant to the top...

When you ramp down the P/K this happens....which makes sense....I've found that too much Cal/Mag can lead those "rust" spots...I need to study Mynamestitch's guide to see what it is...I think it's a Phosphorous deficiency I've run into, which would be a mobile deficiency, as you've described ...starting on lower growth...uniformly at lower growth...P being mobile...correct? (I'm rusty, lol)....would have to double check....

Which has led me to swtich to floranova during this run, and the results are pretty good, ive seen no more defficiencies, and the nice growth has returned. Its just that I dont want to pay 22bux for a qt. of floranova if i can get a whole gal of CNS for 25bux...

It's best to just go with what comes easiest for you....CNS-17 takes some dialing in...it has a high Ca content. Too much Ca can lockout Mg....deficiencies in coco are often masked....not the same as diagnosing DWC or Ebb/Flow plants, in my experience....

Now during all of this my sensi star plants have remained doing just fine, wether the CNS or the Floranova the stars keep pumping on, I want to know your opinion VT on wether the mag additive, (cal-mag plus) is something that is needed depending on the strain or not??

I agree that different strains have different appetites and such...but the key variable when considering Cal/Mag+ to be used in conjunction with CNS-17, is the source water quality....and reading the plants....

Now however ive became a lil more proficcent and id like to be able to utilize the Cal-Mag plus with the CNS and keep my bloom feed dirt cheap, but the one part Floranova makes it hard to worry about the idiocyncricies and just go with with what works best...

Always go with what works best...what's most comfortable, unless you have no other viable options

Anyhoo, sorry bout my rant, im drunk as a skunk off a pint of cognac and I just wanted to get your opinion on on wether the cal mag is a nesseceary supplement to the CNS or could a product like the Sensi-Cal product is better??

Run a lower pH and the Ca locking up in the medium will be more readily available to the plants...CNS-17 has Ca/Mag in it, basically....I was adding Cal/Mag+ in my test run, when I should have been running a much lower pH (like 5.5'sh)...in my case...had I done that....Cal/Mag+ would have been superfluous...."coco-nutes" are roughly base mixes with Cal/Mag added

I read alot on the forums and see that people reccomend the sensi-cal product as much if not more than the cal-mag product from botanicare, because of the lack of excess Nitro in the sensi-cal mix?

Makes total sense in many cases....depends on the regimen....

So have you had any experience with the sensi-cal mix? Or any other cal-mag supplement???

I have not tried any other Cal/Mag supplements....

I want to make the CNS work, but with this one stubborn strain, it appears as if maintaing a balance of feeding enough mag without giving too much Nitro in bloom seems to be my crux...

Ok, im done ranting now, im gonna call it a night....

Peace.

Thanx for the reply.

I have 5 strains...and one gives me problems (Cal/Mag+ related problem) in veg...but gets to it in bloom...I can relate....mono cropping is easier
FWIW....I've since gone back to PBP Hydro-organic
Your welcome, man...thanks for the post

peace coco brotha