15 plant coco grow, recurring Nutrient/Magnesium deficiency problem

[Lazyman]

I would try increasing your nutrient strength by 10% every few days until the problem is fixed. I would suggest watering for 15 minutes 4X per day if the girls have good roots. If rot is a concern, I'd throw 2ml per gallon of 35% peroxide in the soup. For fungus gnats, I've added a 1/2 inch layer of washed sand as a cap on top of the pots, the gnats can't get through it and the larvae die.

Hope that helps!

 

[Tokesome]

I would try increasing your nutrient strength by 10% every few days until the problem is fixed. I would suggest watering for 15 minutes 4X per day if the girls have good roots. If rot is a concern, I'd throw 2ml per gallon of 35% peroxide in the soup. For fungus gnats, I've added a 1/2 inch layer of washed sand as a cap on top of the pots, the gnats can't get through it and the larvae die.

Hope that helps!

But they`re rejecting nutes mate, the Ec is rising. I`ve no issue with fungus gnats at the mo

15mins 4 times a day, thanks mate.

Any other opinions for feeding regime?

 

[opt1c]

i was running mine for like 40 seconds ever 3 hours or so... with open lines u get a lot more water flow; i just ran until runoff and then stopped; speaking of which are your nutes recirculating as well or do you run your plants drain to waste? i found that coco works best when ran dtw with feeds applicable to their root growth and stage in life; the ramp it up till they burn also works but i like messing with the plants hormones but starving them and then hitting them with nutes all throughout the grow to get those nice bursts of growth.

See how long it takes for all plants to have run off and then only water that long; determine your intervals by how much the plants drink. Check your reservoirs for light leaks; they allow bacteria to grow and those cause all sorts of problems with ph, ec, and plants

 

[Tokesome]

Mmm, I cant see or smell anything odd around the pots, dipping my finger into the top of the pots just before a feed was about to come on I notice that the medium is still moist but fluffy and light, of course this is only to finger depth. I`ve always fed with this regime, but maybe these girls dont like so much, or maybe not able to drink so much. I`ll try running a regime like you`ve mentioned there opt1c, it seems to make sense.

My set up is recirculating, I have no room for a seperate drum to feed them drain to waste, tho I see the advantage of feeding them accurate nutes rather than imbalanced due to some elements being absorbed quicker than others. Also that the tap water could stand for 24hrs to de chlorine. (what difference does this have on the nutrients?)

When you say flush flush flush, what exactly do you mean. I used to flush regularly at one time, but somehow got to understand that taking nutes away from nute deficient plants can send them worse, my instinct is to flush though Do you mean flush the pots heavily for a determined lengths of time or just normal feed quantities for 24hrs or so?



Thanks again, Tokesome

 

[Lazyman]

Well, in many instances plants that are being watered too often will fail to take up nutes well, watering less frequently (but changing nothing else) results in a better uptake.

I like opt1cs idea about watering until you see runoff, then stopping the flow. If you can get a digital programmable timer you should be able to make that a reality in an afternoon.

 

[Tokesome]

Well, in many instances plants that are being watered too often will fail to take up nutes well, watering less frequently (but changing nothing else) results in a better uptake.

I like opt1cs idea about watering until you see runoff, then stopping the flow. If you can get a digital programmable timer you should be able to make that a reality in an afternoon.

Well I`m not sure this is responsible for my problems, but I`m prepared to give anything a go (except perhaps pissing in my res). I`ll try and find a digital timer tmro, the ones I currently use are 15minute segments.

I`d have thought that the only difference here would be the extra 44mins between feeds to dry out, my understanding being that at the point of run off the medium is totally saturated. Is my thinking here wrong?

If I can improve my feeding regime to an advantage to my grow of course I want to, but I dont want to get too single tracked about this and I want to continue searching for all possibilities as to why my plants are suffering this way. I feel I have to get control of the situation asap for these plants to be able to finsh anything like we`d all want plants to finsh.

I`m going to chat with a friend who had a bumper grow from the same stock, I`m going to find out exactly what she does with them and then compare with what I do and see if that shows up any glaring differences.

Thanks to all you guys responding and spreading the care and knowledge. I do feel that if I can correct the problem quickly I still have a chance of a fair harvest. My fingers are crossed sooooooooo tight, Thanks, Tokesome

 

[opt1c]

when i say flush i mean flush with water; lots of times a nute imbalanced plant can't take a water flush but coco is different... theoretically you can't overwater coco; i've found that to mean you can't overwater too much in one sitting you can overwater coco in frequency; therefore you can water your coco with plain ph'd water and no nutes till you get like 20-30% runoff; that's a flush... or run floraclean in your res but you're trying to keep costs down so water will probably do the trick; don't recirculate the water if possible when flushing; maybe top feed them with a watering can or something till you get a good runoff if possible.

recirculating nutes with coco leads to salt buildups and other nute lockout problems from what i've read although some do have ok results with slabs; i'd look into the h&g product dripclean if possible; that'll eliminate any future salt buildup in your grow

personally i'd use cal-mag+ instead of the epsom salts; with salt buildups being so prevalent in coco i don't follow the logic of adding salt to the mix; maybe in a different medium but i just don't see the logic with coco

it seems like it could be a tap water related issue; off gassing; or letting the water sit for an hour or so... bubbling with an aquarium stone is even better... gets the chlorine out of the water and stabilizes the ionic bonds throughout the water while doing so... it takes time but is worth the effort

i was having a lot of weird lockout and issues with coco awhile back; switched to an ro unit and the problems went away.... there are a lot of variables in the water supply; even sink to sink; you never know what pipes might be corroding along your lines

and yes... coco can take a long time to dry out; yours will dry out quicker on account of the rocks and whatnot so pay close attention to the weight of the pots in between waterings; that's the one drawback i found with coco and automated watering; depending on how the roots have developed in the different plants they'll drink different amounts and thus benefit more from hand watering and custom water schedules. Next time with your setup try running rockwool chum or all hydroton instead of the coco; especially if you're already reticulating. It's my opinion that coco performs best drain to waste but i'm sure someone will come on here and totally school me in that regard; that's why i love icmag btw


i'd really try using bottled or filtered water in one tray and see what happens compared to the rest; that way you'll at least know if its the water or not

the way your leaves are stretching for the sun is a really good sign though; if ph was out of wack they'd be more twisted on the ends and not just showing cal/mag probs... so they aren't as bad as you think

 

[Tokesome]

Thanks opt1c, I`d usually flush recirculatin with a full res (60ltr), then dump after a couple of hours then refill and flush again for a couple more hours, then let it drain off well before refilling with fresh nutes. But if you think hand watering with a watering can would be better, say 12 liters into each pot, then refill with freash nutes, I`ll give that a go.

I`ll get airstones today and will let water stand, is it important to let it stand before mixing the nutes into it?

I`m considering trying to fit a water butt into the room so I could fill it with nutrients and then feed all the plants off the one water but and run to waste (collected in the tanks that the pots sit on. I dont know if it`ll be feasible really, but will think along those lines.

I dont know what rockwool chum or hytroton is bit I`ll look into it. I used to run hydroponics with rokwool cubes and spreader mat, but I dont want to go back to that again.

Yeah I know that some of the weaker plants with lesser root systems require less feed than others and its a matter of hoping they can keep up. Maybe I should fit the dripper nodes back on so I can alter the flow to specific plants.

Its just too dodgy to bring in 60ltrs of bottled water in to just fill the one res, though I see what you`re getting at, I dont think its going to be possible this grow. Maybe I could invest in a RO(?) unit after this grow comes through.

The leaves pointing to the sun I`ve always seen as a good sign but just lately they`ve started looking a little more droopy and limp feeling, but just over a week ago they were reaching hard for the light especially during and for a while after feeding. I`ve just had to tie up a lot of branches that have stretched a lot and not supporting themselves, I`m not sure if this is because of the plant weakening or if they`re just getting heavy with the buds forming for the thin stretched limbs. They are looking better than the last grow for sure, but I fear if this problem carries on or gets worse they`ll get stunted again.

I`ll also look into the calmag, is it expensive stuff, and should I need it given that the nutes I`m using has a good supply of both cal and mg?

I`ll take some more pics later today and try and post them this evening.

Thanks, Tokesome

 

[Wait...What?]

cal-mag+ is a salts-based nutrient, as is just about everything else with nitrates in it. don't be afraid of epsom salts just because it has salts in the name.

the key is balance and proportion
N and K have to be in the proper proportion to eachother
N and Ca have to be in the proper proportion to eachother
Ca and Mg haveto be in the proper proportion to eachother

Start by learning exactly what is in your water. If you dont know, then go RO so you do know whats in it. THEN add your nutrients. Then adjust the pH.

 

[Tokesome]

Start by learning exactly what is in your water. If you dont know, then go RO so you do know whats in it. THEN add your nutrients. Then adjust the pH.

Not easy to do at this time mate, I`m looking for how to fix the problem I have here with the methods I`m using. I know that puts me at a disadvantage perhaps, but its what I have.

 

[Tokesome]

sorry, posted some stuff twice so removed it, T

 

[Tokesome]

I went to a store and asked for cal mag, low and behold though when I get back home I realise its called cal max

Dunno if its the same stuff, can anyone tell me.

Ingredients are:-

total nitrogen 2% (1.94 nitrate nitrogen + 0.06% water soluble organic nitrogen)

Calcium (Ca) 3.2%

Magnesium (Mg) 1.2%

Iron (Fe) 0.1%

If I add this to the nutrient mix after flushing today, could that help with this deficiency or could it further imbalance the nutrient problem I have??

I`m not sure what the ingredients for Cal Mag are.

I`ve also had a look at Atami`s feeding regime, for week 5 it advises these measurements

2-300ml B`cuzz coco A
2-300ml B`cuzz coco B
150ml PK13/14
25-50 ml B`cuzz booster
150ml B`cuzz bloom stimulator

These measurements assume a 100ltr res, mine being 60ltrs each I`d use 60% of these measurements

But if I`m going to add the Cal Max to the mix, would I reduce the amounts of the above and if so, which ones?

Sorry if I`m being a pain in the ass.

Here are some photos at the start of day 29 of 63

 

[Dhude]

Sounds simple to me. Leave your feed strength alone. Raise your feedwater pH to 6.0 for a week, running less than 5.8 or so for extended periods will almost always lead to mag def symptoms. Mg just doesn't become very available at low pH, gets sucked up by the catios network in the coco at first, and cannabis is a mg hog anyway.

pH 6. Try it.

 

[EvilTwin]

Tokesome,
We out here in the cyber-ozone aren't risking a thing. It's you who lost over half your crop last time and are at risk right now. So whatever you do...you'll either reap the reward or pay the price.

You said your water is at .3 EC. I'm not real conversant on the different conversion scales. But if you were to guess ragarding TDS...isn't that somewhere over 300ppm? That would warrant using a hard-water nutrient formulation or RO water since anything above 250ppm probably should be considered to be not suitable for growing. (that's my number...opinions vary)

And most of that is calcium I would guess. So I personally wouldn't add anymore calcium...unless you're going to use the cal-max as a foliar for a test as was recommended to you earlier.

The cost of a RO system works out to be somewhere around the price of !/2 ounce of bud. If you have another failed or stunted crop and it turns out to be your water, well you're going to have some regrets.

Not trying to be a dick or anything...just trying to put things in perspective...
ET

 

[Tokesome]

When I say I`m skint, I mean really skint. I haven`t got the funds to do anything with at the minute. I spent £11 on the Calmax and its left me with a couple of quid for the weekend. I`m just not able to afford a RO unit at the moment, otherwise I simply would.

On a cheerier note though my friend who has grown the same stock successfully uses tap water in the same area. My tap water always used to be EC4 but is now 3, I`ve always used it and achieved very good results. That said I accept the point that RO water could help my situation and will invest when funds allow. Until then I do have to manage with what I have and need to do the best I can to redress any deficiencies with the much valued help given by the kind people on this forum. To be honest I find myself being more confused, though I hope that is just part of the process to a greater understanding.

I dont like the idea of foliar feeding plants when they`re in mid flower, as I`d be worried about smoking it directly, a common opinion, surely?

Dhude, yeah I`m going to set the nutes to account for some extra mg, and yeah will set around ph6. I was using ph 5.8-6.2 when this problem ocurred a couple of weeks ago.

Tokesome

 

[Lazyman]

Hey Tokesome, yeah you don't want to do a bunch of sprays in late flower, but up to about 4-5 weeks in I'm still foliar feeding (I use my res water at half strength)

CHeapest way to get magnesium in there is a bag/carton of Epsom salts from the drugstore, about 1-2 dollars in the US. Just add 1/4tsp per gallon (sorry can't do metric conv in my head) and boil it in water on the stove until it all dissolves, then you can add it to your res, and a bit of it for foliar spray (if possible) will be ok. As long as you follow up any foliar sprays with plain water within 2-3 days most of it will rinse off/out.

Hope that helps, good luck!

 

[EvilTwin]

Hi Tokesome,
I agree that the situation is as unclear as ever. Didn't mean to put you on the spot. It's just that water is the core of a hydro set up and IF that's the issue, then better water is the only answer.

Sending positive thoughts your way...
ET

 

[Tokesome]

Hi Tokesome,
I agree that the situation is as unclear as ever. Didn't mean to put you on the spot. It's just that water is the core of a hydro set up and IF that's the issue, then better water is the only answer.

Sending positive thoughts your way...
ET

Thanks mate, I`m in the process of watering can feeding 12ltrs of plain ph`d water through each 7ltr pot, lots of run off. I`m on 2nd pot of 15. Its taking 1ml per 12ltrs of ph down to bring tap water to ph 6.

Thanks Lazyman, yeah I`ve been using Epsom salts the past week or two.


I`ll set at just under Atami`s recommended fert regime and add either a little cal max (probably not til I find out more about it) or 1/4 teaspoon per 5ltr (Gal), seeing as the nutes already carry Mg. and I`ll set ph at 6.

Does that sound reasonable guys, or would you up the Epsom to 1/2 teaspoon per gal. (Reason I ask, is I want to make sure the plants are getting enough of the other elements from the nutes. If I add 1/2 teaspoon per gal it increases my EC reading by3, which is quite a bit of the total EC I want to achieve, especially considering that the tap water comes with an EC reading of 3)

Tokesome

 

[delta9nxs]

Hi,

coco coir has a relatively high cation exchange capacity, typically between 60 and 90 meq./100g dependent upon the manufacturers treatment, usually defined as the mediums ability to store and then release nutrient ions. Cations are positively charged ions. The nutrients most affected are calcium, magnesium, and potassium. An excess or lack of any one of these can result in a deficiency of the other two. The problem with this is that until the cation exchange capacity of the medium is filled, it can “hold back” positively charged ions, resulting in deficiencies. Once the capacity is met, however, this becomes your ally as it becomes a “bank” that your plant will make withdrawals from on demand.

The solution is to compensate for this tendency early in your grow by supplementing calcium and magnesium. There is probably enough potassium in your nutes. This can be done simply by the use of epsom salts and calcium chloride. Calcium chloride is commonly sold at local plant places as “tomato blossom end rot” treatment. Epsom salts are at wally's, all supermarkets and all drugstores. I personally prefer the rite-aid brand as it goes instantly into solution, poof! Anyone who has beat epsom crystals to death for 5 minutes will appreciate this trait. For dose take a gal of your water and add measured amounts of calcium chloride until you reach about 100 ppm on a .5 meter or 140 on a .7 meter. Same with the magnesium sulfate. you then know how much to add per gal. Reduce your base nutrient solution to no more than around 600 ppm at .5. This is further compounded by the fact that coir, being composed of mainly cellulose and lignin, is already full of potassium, calcium, and magnesium in the fibers which behave in a “slow release” fashion. it is not an inert medium.

I don't grow in coco so I don't know how long you may need to keep this up, maybe someone else can contribute this info. I know that in turface, which also has a good cec, I start at the end of the 2nd week and continue through the end of the 5th week of veg in hempy style containers. I begin again at week 4 of flower and continue through week 7.

I've read about rezdogs flora formula of 6/9. if you look at the labels you'll see that this increases the ratios of calcium and potassium tremendously over the standard “lucas” 8/16 formula. He runs this for the life of the plant.

I'm not sure if this has anything to do with your problem, but looking at your plants I think I see multiple deficiencies. Flush, flush, flush!

Also, as was mentioned, your water might be borderline in quality, but that is a” whole nutha' oprah show.” If your water is bad it causes another set of variables to be introduced. Take an ice cube out of your freezer, rinse it and look at it. If it is perfectly clear you have ro or distilled water already or the best tap water i've ever heard of. If there is any opaque white in it those are the dissolved solids that have migrated to the center during freezing. If it is more than 50% opaque white then it is borderline at best, it might work ok , if it is mostly white you are going to have problems growing. If it has any other colors in it at all it is probably toxic to your plants. Any yellow orange color indicates high iron levels. You can get a ro filter that makes 35 gals a day from www.marinedepot.com for about 100 bucks.

as far as ph is concerned, when dealing with the charts and graphs, coco is neither hydro or soil. try ph at 6.0-6.5 for a while.

Well, hope this helps, later

 

[daihashi]

When I say I`m skint, I mean really skint. I haven`t got the funds to do anything with at the minute. I spent £11 on the Calmax and its left me with a couple of quid for the weekend. I`m just not able to afford a RO unit at the moment, otherwise I simply would.

If you're looking for a cheap solution for RO try this:

http://www.amazon.com/Mr-Clean-AutoDry-System-Starter/dp/B0006M56CE

It's used to wash cars and let them air dry without any water spots. All water spots are is the dissolved solids that are in the water itself. This thing removes a lot of the dissolved solids from the water. My tap water is at 260ppm. After I run it through this my water reads anywhere from 10 - 40ppm. That's a pretty drastic reduction and well worth it.

I have an RO system also which I prefer but I am having plumbing issues at the moment so I've resorted to the Mr. Clean system with no issue. Quality of the water is comparable.

The only down side is you have to buy replacement filters for it. They cost anywhere from $5-10 (US dollars). I can get anywhere from 10-12 5 gallon pails on one filter. Not too bad of a price when you calculate the cost of a filter per gallon of RO water. On amazon the filters are about 7 bucks. 60 gallons/ $7 = 0.116 cents per gallon of RO water.

Not bad. I personally use 25% tap water and 75% RO. I don't like using calmag in flowering because of the N content in it. The tiny bit of tap water combined with my hydro nutes makes everything pretty nice.