Your opnion is needed about ethics

[hoosierdaddy]

Supply and demand plus what the market will bear.
The free market works magic even in clandestine settings.

 

[DocLeaf]

Do you think you'll get a full representation of a strain from 10 seeds?

What other herb seeds are sold in packs of 10?

Say the seeds are $80 for 10 seeds... $400 sounds good to you?

1. it depends on how homogeneous the strain is.

2. most heirloom seeds come in small number packs,, as do pumpkins, cucumbers, expensive tomato varieties and so on...

3. ppl usually get a discount from cannabis breeders when buying packs in bulk.

hope this helps

 

[skar]

cannabis seeds are for MANY peoples a "buisness-tool" to get money from people's hands IMO..in all honesty how many breeders think of their seeds as "sacred seeds who are made at reasonnable prices to help cannabis users" ?? Not so many in my opinion...

at the same time..i understand breeders who started to grow 20 years sooner and tried to live of their passion and now sell 100$ a 10 seeds pack after YEARS of work on the strains.

When money is involving..it's all a matter of choice..what i want to have / who's going to get the money are always the 2 questions i ask myself when i buy anythings. Then i make my choice.

peace

 

[skar]

Do you think you'll get a full representation of a strain from 10 seeds?

What other herb seeds are sold in packs of 10?

Say the seeds are $80 for 10 seeds... $400 sounds good to you?

1. depending of the breeders...yes.

2. i dont know but i think that the prohibition for cannabis seeds in a big part of the world play a role in the facility to sell packs of 10 seeds at high prices.

3. I second DocLeaf answer..when you buy in bulk breeders helps 3 times on 4.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

Thats an interesting point, I always thought most cash croppers grew from clones for consistent batches of high priced flower, and I always thought most hobby growers were the ones buying the seeds???

And where do cash croppers come by these clones?
and I ain't talking cali either... I'm talking the rest of the world...
Most of the UK cash croppers run fem's, right?
Alot of other's grow seed to make their 'clone mum' selection from...

When you consider the fact that one keeper quality mother is the equivalent of a perpetual supply of clones... And when you consider the fact that every seed is a genetic lottery with a plant of cup winning quality is the potential outcome...

Especially if the quality of the genetic is stacked in your favor...

Drop back and hunt down the reports on my hybrids... CaseyJones for example... The vast majority of reports I read have at least one keeper in eack pack... and I'm not talking about plants your run in the mill smoker would deem a keeper... Joe Shmoe,with all his access to cali elites, found a keeper casey from one pack and still has 80% of the pack he never sprouted... Same thing for Truecannabliss... For Cocktail Frank, and for others... When I tested casey out I had three plants I could not bring myself to let go for well over a year, and have more caseys in veg right now, because I wish I hadn't let any of them go...

It is not that unreasonable to think one might find their keeper in one pack, by any means, and one keeper means buds in perpetuity to any decent gardener.

 

[Rgd]

i've paid 25$ i've paid 300+ dollars..i don't whine about it.
Genetics are the cheapest and most important part of the equation.
Good genetics fun.

 

[barletta]

Yeah, a zip pays for just about any pack of seeds (even a 50 lol), BUT if the genetics are misrepresented, and the genetics are light, or late, that costs the GROWER money. Forget about breeders that don't take HUGE steps to stay away from hermies (or AT LEAST warn the consumer..). My lil perpetual pays the bills, and I had a few strains that were throwin bananas like mad. Couldn't hash em, I need the money, had to pick fukkin bananas for 2 wks, than get all sloppy and put big stinky live plants in the woods (to isolate them).

Those breeders made a choice when the line they were working showed a herm tendency, and the breeder said fukk it, I put a lot of work in, it's only 30%.... Had I had a set it and forget it hydro house, I would be out $$$$$ if one of those she-he's exploded. Granted, I wouldn't be growing from seed, but what if the hermies laid low until round 2?? A lil change in temp, or nute strength, or humidity, BANANAS!! $5g/lb becomes $1500 QUICK.

There are breeders here and elsewhere (I'll throw out DNA's name, as most of the people here have something against them anyway, lol.) that don't give a shit. I have grown a bunch of DNA plants, never done any real selection, but... ALL but 1 of the plants (5 out of 6, sw hz, recon, 2mmg, cannaloupe) had hermies to some degree. The Sweet Haze was probably my fault, but the recon was outside in a SWEET spot eating castings and manure, the mmg's and cannaloupe all threw bananas in different semi-dialed lol rooms. I have 6 MMG seedlings, and I am giving them a go, but I didn't PAY for these seeds (HAHAHAHA THEY ARE MY $10/per bean MODEL!!!), and the claimed genetic background is TASTY. So, if I can find 1 cool, if not, oh well. Those guys would be ok in my book if they were honest (SOME of our plants are CRUSHERS, but we don't know/won't tell what's in em) and charged under $60 for that 13 pack (more in a pack is a BIG draw to me personally. Run 2-3 to get a feel, then if you like em, still have a bunch to run out.)

 

[hubcap]

there are few with GOOD ethics in the seed buisness.


the problem lies in the fact that people think theyre as good as, say shanti, or DJ, and try to demand the same prices for their closet crosses.





id gladly pay for someone who does the REAL work. (goes off to the far lands to get landrace seed stock.,........looks thru 1000s of potential winners.......makes NEW crosses with NEW genetics; not crossing 2 others breeders' work and calling it your own.................)
anyone can find two nice plants, throw em in a box, and make seed.



funny thing is....every so often,after we see the "hype threads" with pretty pics and stellar smoke reports.....
we see em on the bay, under the UNTESTED, or PRIVATE BREEDERS section.....with NO buy it now price.....and only listing 1 or 2 packs at a time....driving the auctions up to 100-200-even $300.........(that never seem to get paid for)
while 10(or more) other packs "sit in the vault"
(see: selectively keeping prices high with hype and VERY" limited availability.")
also, are they willing to replace an order if they dont germ or are damaged in the post?????? more often than not youve got to complain. or open "hate threads"

bad beans from mr nice? from dj short?
talk to DJ or shanti...let em know what happened....two weeks later....youve got a replacement pack. no hassles. does a closet breeder do that for the masses? (not just 1 or 2 people)


..........get the good stuff thats been PROFESSIONALLY worked and have ALOT of packs available. AND have customer support. not just two packs from "private breeder" at auction with no BIN......
if youre looking for ethics in the seed biz.....
stick to shanti, DJ, chimera, mandala mike, annaC, or sannie........
they all seem to price things accordingly for the finished product you get. in fact, sannie and annaC, imo, sells things a bit cheap, but, we wont complain bout that...


in MY opinion...leave the $75 and up packs to the people that do the REAL work and offer REAL customer support. closet hacks simply cant offer that same level of service that you pay for with the PROs.
probably wont be a popular OPINION here, but the poster asked for opinions, so i got high, and added mine. dont kill me.


i just dont understand how someone can expect to charge (and get) $2-300 a pack for something someone else did 99% of the work to make. i chuckle everytime i see those S1 mix packs and ogka x ??packs go over $200. what a JOKE!!!! buy two packs of ssh and be MUCH happier.

leave the expensive packs for the PROFESSIONALS and the 95% others of us here should accept the fact that even tho we grow great smoke and take great pics, we cant compare to the quality seedlines that DJ and shanti (et al) bring to the table without doing all the work THEY have done.



ok im done.

off for anutha bowl of my homemade chemdawg x killing fields F2.

hey wait.........

its killer smoke.

wanna buy a pack for $100????


be good yall.

 

[PazVerdeRadical]

this does not qualify as an ethical issue perhaps, but have you guys thought about the market that most seed prices aim at? it is mainly a western european and north american market.
it is understandable that many people think it is reasonable to pay 100 u.s. dollars for 10 beans, because these people have an income where using those 100 u.s dollars does not represent a serious reduction of their monthly incomes.
where i live, minimun wage per month is around 300 u.s dollars; and a lot of people would like to order tons of seed to grow, but who can shed 1/3 of their monthly income to get 10 beans which they are not even sure are well acclimatized to their latitudes etc...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

bad beans from mr nice? from dj short?
talk to DJ or shanti...let em know what happened....two weeks later....youve got a replacement pack. no hassles. does a closet breeder do that for the masses? (not just 1 or 2 people)

Without exception every customer complaint that has ever been made to me has been promptly handled in a manner which exceeded the customer's expectations. (is it my fault there have only ever been 1 or two complaints? :wink Most all of my customers are repeat customers or trust the recommendation of one of my regulars.

I may work with parents which came from other breeder's seeds, but that has no bearing on the quality or value of the hybrids I make. I have an excellent eye for good stock and good pairings, and selecting top notch breeding stock is work, regardless of the source of the seed. Where would we be as a species if no-one was allowed to build on the work of those who came before them? How far would we have made it reinventing the wheel every generation?

Yes... acquiring 'new' landrace stock for unique F1 hybrids is an important part of the goals of producing the best... But building upon what work has gone before is necessary/equally important, or even more important depending on your perspective.

 

[Guest]

I don't believe price has any connection to quality or potency at all. Ive found several of Nirvana's offerings to surpass the quality and consistency of more expensive breeders many times over. Although he's getting some competition lately, KC Brains has been one of the top breeders in the world for vigor and strain quality and he's cheap. Im growing 2 greenhouse products and its the first time ive tried them and both stains are very high quality at a reasonable price.
I took a real reaming from Reeferman and Mr. Nice and was sold schwag crap for big money, not just once but 2X.

I consider 10$ per seed the limit for me. Ive never smoked anything thats worth more than that and really thats uncalled for. High dollar seeds are a example of conspicuous consumption such as buying a cadillac or hummer. What you get is mostly show, not substance.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

this does not qualify as an ethical issue perhaps, but have you guys thought about the market that most seed prices aim at? it is mainly a western european and north american market.
it is understandable that many people think it is reasonable to pay 100 u.s. dollars for 10 beans, because these people have an income where using those 100 u.s dollars does not represent a serious reduction of their monthly incomes.
where i live, minimun wage per month is around 300 u.s dollars; and a lot of people would like to order tons of seed to grow, but who can shed 1/3 of their monthly income to get 10 beans which they are not even sure are well acclimatized to their latitudes etc...

It is not necessarily that this is the market aimed for... and it is not the major market because the bean prices are high... Even if seed prices were lower, the same market would be the main consumer. People would just be buying more and spending the same.

With that being said... I'm always willing to make sure a few free seeds make their way to a grower in a third world economy who really needs them... There are plants from head seeds floating around various parts of eastern europe for that very reason... It's not really something I can get 'scammed on', since it is obvious from the shipping address where in the world one is...

 

[420247]

2. most heirloom seeds come in small number packs,, as do pumpkins, cucumbers, expensive tomato varieties and so on...

Heirloom seed=Skunk#1

Beefsteak=SuperSilverHaze

See thats my point, Skunk#1 seeds are cheap!!! Why???

It won the first Cannabis Cup ever, before all the politic crap!

It was selected from larger seed stock than any other strain I know of.

It was the first stabilized hybrid, and the only one I know of.

It is the only strain I know of where the goal was for other growers to be able make more seeds for themselves, its also the only strain I know of that was bred with a long term goal in mind and not just for money.

More work was put into SK#1 than any other strain I know of.

More people use SK#1 for breeding than any other strain I know of....

So in that sense all seeds should be priced less than SK#1 until they have put the same amount of work into there strain, and have a proven track record like SK#1 does...

Sam the Skunkman is a breeding god in my book!!!!!!!!!!

 

[420247]

Although he's getting some competition lately, KC Brains has been one of the top breeders in the world for vigor and strain quality and he's cheap.

That is true! I love my Leda Uno seeds!!! Its just as good as the High Dollar seeds I have, and just as good as the clone only cuts I have!!!!

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

On one site, heirloom tomato seeds vary from 2.99 to 4.99.
On the same site hybrid tomato seeds vary from 1.99 to 4.99.

It appears that in the geranium market, elite hybrid seeds cost about 40% more than purebred geranium seed...

And here is an interesting seed market article...

Producers have ever-increasing options when it comes to buying seed in 2008, but those new traits are expected to come with a higher price tag.

Corn and soybean seed prices are expected to increase once again for 2008, fueled by an increase in the costs of royalties for genetics and technology (traits) as well as strong underlying commodity prices.

How much prices will increase has yet to be determined, as seed companies and technology providers finalize pricing schedules, but early indications are that fees on some traits could see a big jump.

The sharp increase in the price for underlying commodities — corn and soybeans — also means that seed companies are competing for seed acreage. “Costs are going up,” says Chuck Lee, head corn product line for Syngenta. “There is a significant increase in the costs of planting crops, it costs more to register products worldwide, and there's more regulatory approval costs.”

A report on Forbes.com in late June fueled the speculation, with one industry analyst reporting that “the value of [Monsanto's] products — in a world where bushels of corn go for $4 — has now perhaps opened up an opportunity for price increases of $15 to $25 per bag for elite, multi-trait hybrid seeds in fiscal year 2008.”

Yet producers are buoyed by solid corn and soybean prices, and there's confidence that the traits tucked into each seed are worth the investment.

“Seed corn prices are on the rise, but in the grand scheme of things they are carrying their weight by increasing the crop's performance,” says Roger Elmore, extension corn specialist with Iowa State University.

Costs of production
With elite corn hybrids well over $200 per unit and soybeans at the $35 per unit range, producers aren't likely to see a dip in prices anytime soon.

“Certainly there is a higher cost than ever before,” Elmore says. “But the costs involved in producing seed are also increasing. It costs money for research, transportation, product development and marketing. The prices are going up, but we must remember that transgenics are simply protecting yield. We must focus on increasing genetic yield potential of corn.”

 

[Grizz]

Its up to each grower what he wants to spend and what genitics he wants, For the most part the seed company is in it to sell seeds. With the exception of people Like H3ad, anna c and some others that work stuff they like and try to improve it. The other bigger seed producers are trying to go with the hype and fill the market with what most want. Most of us that have been growing for a few years know this and buy accordingly. I my self love trying new stuff and really have no problem spending the $ for things like Krypto's new releases. I could see a new grower getting pissed if he spent big $$ for a 10 pack and got something that dident live up to what he paid for, lesson learned. Its easy now with sites like ICMAG to read and search before you buy and find what you want, The ethic's are no different than car dealers or any other big buisness

 

[barletta]

Nice find h3ad.

Imagine we were locking the folks over at monsanto up for making, transporting, testing their suicide seed...

Oh, wait...we probably should....

Talk about fukked up priorities in this contry...

 

[southpaw]

Supply and demand plus what the market will bear.
The free market works magic even in clandestine settings.

Perhaps. When I see a two way street where the great defenders of capitalism wax poetic on the beauty of cannabis, I'll be less skeptical. Anyone who grows or sells this plant is in one form or another bucking prevailing politics and economics.

I'm not about to sit on my high horse and tell a respected breeder how to price a strain that has been legitimately toiled over for years. You can't walk into a 99 cent store and expect to find Tiffany. Either you have the interest or financial ability to reflect the "mission" aspect of growing into your pricing as a breeder, or you don't. Depending on the situation, this is or isn't an ethical choice.

Luckily, word gets through our community like any other. Some beans are truly "worth" $10 per (or more!), others don't come even close. Some are overpriced, some are underpriced. The best we can do in the current situation is grow them out and share the knowledge.

 

[420247]

Yet, dramatic changes have occurred since then because of high prices for both grain and seed. In our February 2007 version we used a corn price of $3.00 per bushel and seed prices ranging between $1.00 and $2.50 per 1,000 seed; this equated to $80 to $200 per 80,000 seed unit.

Today, an 80,000 seed unit of hybrid corn containing a triple stack of resistant traits is priced at over $200 per unit; with discounts that are available at times, the seed may cost approximately $160 per unit in the end. Hybrid seed costs have increased, for multiple reasons, with grain prices to an all-time high.

I'd pay $200 for 80,000 seeds....

 

[420247]

This is were I got that from...

http://www.agronext.iastate.edu/corn/production/management/planting/seedcosts.html