why the white hollow seed ????

[Guest]

what is the cause of the white hollow seed in a seed harvest?

seems to me its a nute deficiency,? as sometimes i get a higher ratio of the white ones in a seed batch.

i just harvested a batch of seed, and id guesstimate close to 20% were white and hollow. the rest were nice and brown. just lookin in the plate, i could see that there were many more then usual.

CBF

 

[teddybud]

I'd think it'd have to do alot with the pollen as well as nutes fed to the mother plant.

 

[SEEDYNONO]

how long did you allow between pollenation and harvesting the seeds?

 

[nandro]

I've always figured those are tha bastard children from very disfunctional whore calyxes.

Hell if I know,
Nandro

 

[Guest]

how long did you allow between pollenation and harvesting the seeds?

i harvest seed when i see um bustin out of the pod. in this case, id say 6 1/2 wks.

CBF

 

[JLP]

I've wondered about this as well.



Here's a pic of a couple recent batches of seeds I made.I used the same male on both females,both females were the same strain and finished at the same time,grown side by side in the exact same tray with the same nutes.
As you can see,one plant created about 20% immature seeds while the other produced virtually none.
This would indicate that the problem is actually specific to a given female,it would appear that the actually pollenation or pollen doesn't play a role.

JLP

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings Cedarberry

You pose an interesting question.

Seed development/maturity is a relatively complicated plant process that is dependant on various factors.

The most obvious is time. Not all seeds will mature at the same time. Position on the plant, exposure to environmental elements (light and air), size of plant (rhizosphere) and cultivar all factor into the time taken for seeds to mature. Depending on these variables, six and a half weeks may not be the solution to the equation.

The influence of temperature and Carbon Dioxide availability on the rate of metabolism, play a tremendous role in not only the maturing of the seed, but also the subsequent viability. Too cool affects maturity; too hot affects viability. A Carbon Dioxide level above 1400 ppm begins to negatively affect seed viability. A temperature differential greater than 15 degrees F (day/night) will cause seed to mature at vastly different rates.

The third point to consider is the availability of the nutritional elements. Ample Phosphorus is a given. The necessity of a proportionately great amount of Potassium is less known.

Potassium among other things:

1) is responsible for stalk and stem stiffness (nutrient conduits to plant parts…seeds included).
2) Is essential for photosynthesis.
3) Facilitates cell division and growth by helping to move starches and sugars between plant parts.
4) Regulates opening and closing of stomata (important considering the effects of temperature on metabolism and seed development).
5) Activates enzymes to metabolize carbohydrates for the manufacture of amino acids and proteins (significant component of the germplasm and the endosperm)
6) Gives plumpness to grain and seed.

Almost as important, is the availability (and abundance) of Calcium six to ten days before pollination and the availability (and abundance) of Magnesium, three to five weeks after pollination to ensure the enzymatic and photosynthetic responses essential to successful seed set and development.

The final area to consider is the amount of seed produced. All other variables being equal, a highly seeded plant will produce a greater amount of imperfect seeds, than its counterpart which is less seeded.

both females were the same strain and finished at the same time, grown side by side in the exact same tray with the same nutes.
As you can see, one plant created about 20% immature seeds while the other produced virtually none.
This would indicate that the problem is actually specific to a given female...JLP

The image, as well as, the above post by JLP illustrates concisely the points raised; particularly that of the heavier seeded plant bearing more immature seed.
(Note: a greater emphasis on nutrient ratio and uptake, will eliminate this occurrence)

As intimated before...because seed production is such a relatively complex process, minute differences can and will (sometimes drastically) manifest themselves. A different position in the "tray", a different degree of root development (hence nutrient uptake), or being siblings (even within the same cultivar), will manifest itself.

In conclusion here are four easy steps to counter the 'problem':

1) Keep temperature constant.
2) Provide abundant Potassium.
3) Provide Calcium and Magnesium (appropriate times and quantities).
4) Allow for the proper elapse of time.

Sincerely,
Charles.

p.s. I find it important to stress....I am not calling anyone's skill as a cultivator into question. If an element of this post causes offence to any member of these forums, please allow me this opportunity, to apologize in advance.

C.X.

 

[Guest]

hello Charles, thanks for takin the time to post that info.

pretty sure i allow plenty of time for the seed to mature on the plant. earlier seed harvests i had light brown/green seed amoung nice dark brown seed, and knew i took um to early.

the seed im talkin about, are hollow, and white, i can tell the diff of a inmature seed. these hollow beans, i see in every seed production, and in most every mexi sack i ever bought,hehe.

there like fake seed or somethin. maybe the color attracts critters that eat the seed, they go for the white seed, and the viable brown ones, more make it to the ground??????? haze such a wonderful smoke

the only thing im not doin is the cal/mag at the times mentioned. this last plant was totally seeded, every bud. but i only harvested 370 beans. small plants here. so the higher ratio of hollow seed coincides with a heavly seeded plant, plant just isnt gettin enough nutes for the amount of seed im tryin to produce.

so is there anyone out there harvestin seed, where they get no , or very few hollow seed in there batches? i ask cause i would appreciate what nute program your usin when makin seed.

i use soil, and supplement with organic nutes when i see the plant has used the dirt up. i dont nute every other waterin or nothin like that. the only scheduled nute the plants get, is right after the stretch they get a shot of veg nutes.

CBF

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings Cedarberry

The seeds you are describing are the result of an inadequacy of Potassium and Calcium at critical junctures. The result is compounded by the other factors mentioned.

so is there anyone out there harvestin seed, where they get no , or very few hollow seed in there batches? i ask cause i would appreciate what nute program your usin when makin seed....Cedarberry

The seed harvests that I am familiar with results in 98 to 100 percent viable seed.

The nutrient regimen (i.e. specific nutrients used) depends greatly on the method of cultivation. But the general guidelines outlined in the earlier post are adhered to.

The other constant is: for indoor gardens a 'balanced' light spectrum is used. This is because the photosynthetic response to 'blue' light is more conducive to the hormonal processes responsible for seed maturation.

Consider hardwood ash, chicken manure and fish emulsion.

Sincerely,
Charles.

p.s. The brevity of this post is a reflection of the time I have available. My apology. If further elaboration or clarification is needed, I would only be too pleased to provide either.

C.X.

 

[Guest]

again Charles thanks for stoppin in , appreciate your input. next seed run, ill try addin cal/mag and hopefully increase my seed harvest.

also have loads of chicken manure i can use, ive added it before prolly to much, as that stuff is Hot!!!

thanks again
CBF

 

[OG bub]

its mostly due to genetics of a given parent... similar to Many deformations or retardations of humans.

this topics is a RARE instance I compare a factor of plants to humans.

Humans can have healthy babis, or unhealthy babies.

speaking on enviroment and nutrition, as a cause of non-viable seed: it is possible for a human mother, carrying a child, to expose herself to negative enviromental factors, or nutritional deficiencies (sp..lol) to birt a child of birth defects, whom otherwise would have been a healthy child. hence, FetalAlcoholSyndrom, CrackBabies, etc etc...

It would be easy to say then, abusive/non favorable enviroment/nutrient of a cannabis mother could yeild the same results it her offspring.


on the other side:
non smoking, non drinking or cracksmoking, healthy human mother with a proper diet, also can birth a baby with defects... it is due to genetics. Doctors now even study heredity MUCH more closely, and regularly, in pregnant women, to observe for many defects, because they are dominantly genetic,.

the SAME goes for Cannabis.
Experienced growers, (like CBF), can still get "defective" seeds, from a well cared for mother plant. It is due to genetics, heredity.

I think, that if you took the mother and father of the cross that yeilded the defective seeds... and crossed the orig Mother to a differnt father... and the orig Father to a different mother... you could find out which parent was responsible for the defective offspring....

remember the "thick seed shell" issue bro?!
this is just the same... its a trait.. heredity.


sometimes, precise specifics of this and that, only make a quite simple task more complicated..


Peace folks, bub.

 

[Guest]

damn that CX is a smart one..

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings OG bub

Well met...and well responded. It is always of interest to gain your insights and perhaps I shall be permitted to further discuss a few of my own.

its mostly due to genetics of a given parent...OG bub

First...there is certainly merit in your statements; however, it has been my experience (and understanding) that (hereditary) genes, in regards to a detrimental role in seed development, falls under the "exception rather than the rule" turn of phrase.

non smoking, non drinking or cracksmoking, healthy human mother with a proper diet, also can birth a baby with defects...OG bub

True, but this incidence (overall) is rare; similarly too...Cannabis.

(Interesting point of note: The assumption earlier established was the vigour of the male. If this variable cannot be reasonably ascertained, then credence is lent to the above disclosed analogy with its rhetoricals intact.)

Accept the following statement as it is offered...without malice or facetiousness:
Perhaps your experience as a breeder is 'corrupting' your logic.

Trait isolation in theory is simple; the subsequent division between genotypically and phenotypically controlled traits in application is usually beyond even the experienced cultivator- even without considering the intersect between the two and/or the potential of spontaneous random-variation.

(I concede that for you this may be a simple task but for the average cultivator not as much, methinks).

An aside: A true genotypically controlled trait is classified as 'all or nothing'. In track with this discussion, if 'genetics' was the determinant all the seed would fail to mature; the fact that some seeds do mature points to the role of environment. That is not to say that 'genetics' has no role; to the contrary its role is important, but with respect to seed set, it is a supporting one.

Sincerely,
Charles.

p.s. I am well aware that in our community trust is a heavy commodity but...trust me.
(I have no love for the sound of my own voice).

p.p.s. Thank you ldt.

C.X.

 

[FOE20]

Really interesting convo gentz...I like all the concepts you guys have given and really have to contribute most of the "shity" beans I get to the Nute def or bad conditions in general..I get great viable rates tho when I try..
Heres beans from 3 diff plants..All 3 plants were the same hybrid of GApe x JTRipper.(the 3rd cola is Afghani and not seeded..just in the pic).All come out very well and took the normal 4-6wks to finish..I do feel Sat dom strains shouldn't be pollied untill wks 4-5 if they run 10-12wks..For Indicas you can polly right bout 3wks and have beans by wk 7-8..
But when I get the whities or dead-albino beans that is my fault cause its usually a Nute Def or PH flux that results in a bad seed production rate like these guys have said..But Im no big breeder/seed maker dood..I just grow good herb and when I polly I just keep treating the plant as a flowing momma..
FOE20

 

[OG bub]

Greetings OG bub

First...there is certainly merit in your statements; however, it has been my experience (and understanding) that (hereditary) genes, in regards to a detrimental role in seed development, falls under the "exception rather than the rule" turn of phrase.

High Charles!
nice to talk!

I agree to an extent. however observing seeds of IBL lines will reveal traits of the seeds, that are unique, uniform and apparent to each given line.
ie. thickness, color, texture, pattern, shape etc.
observing the seed: outcrossing one said line, apparent changes will take place in the resulting seed. and it will be obvious from the parent IBL seed.
that alone indicates to me that genes do play a major role in seed development and structure.

Accept the following statement as it is offered...without malice or facetiousness:
Perhaps your experience as a breeder is 'corrupting' your logic.

right on, but im not shure I know what you mean..

An aside: A true genotypically controlled trait is classified as 'all or nothing'. In track with this discussion, if 'genetics' was the determinant all the seed would fail to mature; the fact that some seeds do mature points to the role of environment.

In the same respect, I think that a controlled defic. like nutes or PH, would also have a much larger impact on otherwise healthy seeds as a whole, on a plant.
and why then if nutes were to play the dominant role of deffective seeds, would the majority of a seed plant be not be effected.?
as we know, plants tell us, with their own measure, how much they need, and how badly they are damaged/stressed. so then if nutes were to play a dominant role in deffective seeds, we could measure the amount of stress by the amount of effected seed... I dont really see that as the case tho.

thanks for yer discussion!

Peace, bub.

 

[Charles Xavier]

Greetings OG bub

Likewise.

Perhaps your experience as a breeder is 'corrupting' your logic....C.X.

Allow me to elaborate: When cooking...it is easier for the average individual to follow a recipe, rather than taste a dish in question, discern its ingredients (by taste) and then recreate said dish. The recipe is akin to a fertilizing schedule. The taste method is trait isolation. Some chefs prefer the taste method; they relish it. Some breeders (your self?) find trait isolation a not daunting task; they relish it. However, great meals can be prepared if the proper attention to recipes are paid.

Genetic defects that inhibit seed production exist, but they are rarely occurred because they are self-limiting (non-advantageous mutation). It is interesting that you mention IBL. An inbred line potentially allows for an increased frequency of non-advantageous mutation, particularly if linked to a selected desirable trait. For example: low flower yield, high potency.


There is a distinct demarcation between seed structure and seed development. Seed structure is genetically controlled; seed development is phenotypically controlled. Simply: it doesn't matter per se what the genetic make up of the parents are, if the environmental conditions are not conducive, then seed development (maturation) will not occur. However, once the seeds are developed, their size, shape, pattern etc. were already (largely) genetically determined.

I think that a controlled defic. like nutes or PH, would also have a much larger impact on otherwise healthy seeds as a whole, on a plant....OG bub

Well it would if the all or nothing premise was strictly adhered to. If Calcium was made completely unavailable to a plant, then it would be incapable of maturing seed; however, this is still phenotypic. A defective genotype dictates that even under perfect conditions, seed maturation will not occur because it cannot occur.

...why then if nutes were to play the dominant role of deffective seeds, would the majority of a seed plant be not be effected.?...OG bub

Sometimes this is exactly the case...the majority of the seed and the plants are affected. In this instance (Cedarberry's) the plants were well tended, they only needed minor modifications (assumed). Most would probably have been satisfied with the results; Cedarberry desired to take it a step further.

...so then if nutes were to play a dominant role in deffective seeds, we could measure the amount of stress by the amount of effected seed...OG bub

You could...but not definitively because it is not a simple causal relationship.

Also, it should not be surprising, considering the significance of reproduction, that the plant would favour this process over others. Therefore, available resources are applied to seed production; hence, if judged solely on seed development, a plant will appear less deficient than it actually was.

Sincerely,
Charles.

 

[Guest]

cause i have to see things for myself, i let a pollinated plant yellow real bad with no nutes for the last 4 weeks and was left in the corner with not very much light. i had pollinated the whole plant.

not a single mature seed. everyone of um was the yellowish, greenish hollow seed. the entire plant. not even the top buds had a good seed. a bit extreme, thought there would of been some seed in there. they had started to develope, but once the nutes ran out, the plant quit on the seed.

have some cal/mag stuff, and im just about ready to start makin some more seed, and will give er a go.always interestin messin around while growin

CBF