Why so few Bato Bucket grows?

[rives]

They are pretty spendy, but appear to work well. The pH controller is about half of the cost of the full system that takes care of nutrients, etc., but it still isn't cheap.

 

[DHF]

Peristaltic dosers are worth their weight in gold in a fast hydro setup , but.......

So are Blumats runnin coco with waaay comparable results for less cash outlay cross the board leavin mo green in yer pockets at the end of the day Bro since yas don`t sell , but follow your path and show us the results....Respect and..........

Good luck...DHF........

 

[rives]

It is worth noting that these are typically run to waste.

That is is how PimpJuice did it, and that is how the greenhouse tomato growers do it.

Dialed in (which is difficult) run to waste uses less water and nutrient than any system that does reservoir changes.

I am curious about the part that I highlighted. I went back through PJ's thread, and it turns out that he was using watering schedules of 1 minute every 35 minutes, and later on went to 1 minute every 45 minutes. This was using 2 gph drippers. That works out to a maximum of 1 gallon per day and a minimum of .66 gpd on 18 hours of light, and .75 gpd maximum or .5 gpd on 12/12.

This seems like a great deal higher consumption of water/nutes than a recirculating system would use. Are you thinking that PJ was watering more heavily than necessary? If so, what volume/schedule of water do you think would get the job done?

 

[Anti]

I am curious about the part that I highlighted. I went back through PJ's thread, and it turns out that he was using watering schedules of 1 minute every 35 minutes, and later on went to 1 minute every 45 minutes. This was using 2 gph drippers. That works out to a maximum of 1 gallon per day and a minimum of .66 gpd on 18 hours of light, and .75 gpd maximum or .5 gpd on 12/12.

This seems like a great deal higher consumption of water/nutes than a recirculating system would use. Are you thinking that PJ was watering more heavily than necessary? If so, what volume/schedule of water do you think would get the job done?

I think what he's saying is that with a recirculating reservoir, you have to dump/change the reservoir every week or so. Anything that didn't get used before the dump is wasted. In DTW, you don't have to keep changing your reservoir, so it only gets used when it's getting used.

Correct me if I'm dumb.

 

[rives]

I think what he's saying is that with a recirculating reservoir, you have to dump/change the reservoir every week or so. Anything that didn't get used before the dump is wasted. In DTW, you don't have to keep changing your reservoir, so it only gets used when it's getting used.

Correct me if I'm dumb.

I took him to mean that the overall usage of water/nutes could be less with a properly dialed DTW arrangement. To me, that defies logic - if the plant only uses a certain percentage of the nutrients on one pass through, then with DTW you don't get the opportunity to use the remaining nutes on subsequent passes. It certainly simplifies the ec/pH issues, though. I would think that some volume of water is necessary to simply keep the plant hydrated even if it doesn't need food at that point, and DTW literally wastes that portion of the nutrients. Incorrect?

I've been toying with the notion of trying to convert a Blumat to actuate a switch rather than pinching off the feed line. With a little bit of logic in behind this and a couple of solenoids, you could then alternate between plain water and nutrient water, feeding at whatever intervals are appropriate and still keeping the plant hydrated.

 

[Anti]

I took him to mean that the overall usage of water/nutes could be less with a properly dialed DTW arrangement. To me, that defies logic - if the plant only uses a certain percentage of the nutrients on one pass through, then with DTW you don't get the opportunity to use the remaining nutes on subsequent passes. It certainly simplifies the ec/pH issues, though. I would think that some volume of water is necessary to simply keep the plant hydrated even if it doesn't need food at that point, and DTW literally wastes that portion of the nutrients. Incorrect?

I am by no means an expert on these topics, but it seems to me that it really depends on the efficiency of either system.

Someone who allows their DTW to run off 50% each feeding is pouring a lot of good nutes down the drain. (50% loss)

Someone who has a reservoir that only gets 1/2 empty before they change out the res is also pouring a lot of nutes down the drain. (50% loss)

But someone who is running DTW with 10% (or less, if adding dripclean to the equation) runoff is only losing (by definition) 10% (or less) of their nutes to the drain, and gains the advantages of the plants being fed a consistent diet and not having to worry about changing their res all the time.

On the other hand, if you were going the recirculating route and you had a res that was built so that the pump could stay submerged even in a very small volume of water and you only fill that res enough to make it to the next res change - so that you are using all but 10% of the water (or less) in your res - I would think that system would be about as efficient as the 10% DTW system, but you'd still have to work harder to maintain the pH in your res.

 

[rives]

I agree with all of that. However, the only way that I can see to keep the DTW system to those runoff levels would be via hand watering. If you automate the system, it has to be geared to the worst-case needs of the plants, and would over-water the rest of the time. I can't imagine that commercial tomato growers with facilities the size of those pictured are hand watering!

 

[Mr.Tortoise]

Tomato operations water up to 12 times an hour. 50 acres under glass trying to hand water would require a fleet of people. They'll do one big watering that will get 30% run off once a day at least. These large operations monitor the nutrients and adjust individual levels separately going a lot longer than 2 weeks before changing the solution. DTW maybe more efficient for some hobby growers but that is it. I change my reservoirs once a month and their is no way DTW is more efficient. If I tried DTW with the same water usage as my reservoir system I would have huge salt issues as I wouldn't have enough run off or very poor growth from having to use very low fertilizer concentrations.

DTW is a lot more reliable than recirculating. I agree with DHF.... If you are going recirculating in a system like bato/hempies were growth is ridiculous you have to be on top of what's going on in your reservoir. Listen to him he knows what he's talking about and will send you down the right path.

Peace,

MT

 

[gregor_mendel]

Hey rives.

The others have answered the same way I would, mostly.

My personal anecdote is having once run an 1800W ebb and flow with no rez change over the life of the crop. I did add backs with floranova bloom. Then threw away the 70 gallons in my rez at harvest.

A few years later, I ran a 4200 watt DTW, where over the grow, I collected about 70 gallons.

About PJ: he ran 9 plants per light, so that's 4.5 to 7.5 gallons per 1000W per day.
I think that is a better way to make sure we are comparing apples and apples.

I have lately been running ebb and flow in a 4x4 tent with a 1000W, and find the above numbers quite reasonable.

Also, though, PJ ran to waste into his outdoor veggie and flower garden, so he may have geared his runoff to satisfy both gardens.

I still say that dialing in DTW is very difficult with regard to not wasting.
Compared to tossing a rez every week though, still more efficient.

 

[Scottish Research]

Really interested in this method. It makes more sense to build your own I think as the cost to purchase and ship is really high.


R.Fortune

 

[stihgnobevoli]

anyone ever thought to DTW to a second res then adjust that second res and have it recirculate to the first res when it empties?

res 1 has 800ppm or whatever and it dtw into the second tub. since its waste the ppm's will be higher most likely. so you take that second res fix it with water or nutes to get it back in range and then it goes back to the first res after it gets 75% empty or something like that?

recirc but with less work since you have 2 res instead of just one to monitor and keep up with. and 2x as much between checks.

 

[DHF]

Heath always ran a "sump rez" that all used runoff feedjuice ran down to with 1/2 strength topoff from a float valve once feed levels were established before it was pumped back to the main rez best I remember to equalize lower ppms across the board and never run above 750/1.5EC consistently runnin through the rootzones in late flower till end of cycle , but I could be wrong cuz it`s been several yrs........

Peace....DHF........

 

[motajardinero]

Bato bucket grower (in the US) for 6 years. I've never run drain to waste. Have run hydroton, silica stone, and coco coir in them. Best results from a mix of all 3. Silica stone in the rez of the bato, then a 70/30 mix of hydroton to coco on top. I used a programable recycling timer and 4 cage type emitters per bato for the best results. Have found the best way to combat pH spikes and nute spikes was to appropriate the proper amount of batos needed to drain a rez in a short but manageable time (>4 days). Small fluctuations, mostly in pH were what I experienced. Mostly a problem when the plants were small and needing a lower pH for optimal N absorption as they do not drain the rez as fast. Still, after initial pH lowering, additional modification was needed only every 2-3 days.
I have watered as little as 3 minutes per day and as much as 40. Best results were by gradually increasing the duration and frequency of watering from 15 seconds every 2 hrs to 30 seconds every 8 minutes as the water demand from the plants increased. I tried to water often enough as to homogenize the solution in the rez with the solution in the well of the bato. A great system, simple, ez to build and maintain, and also very stable with the addition of coco should a pump or line fail. I will be posting the construction and maintenance of the my next garden, which will be all batos minus the 3 footers a buddy just gave me (which will be out after they're done). Cant wait and love that the old techs are showing up once again.

 

[medicalmj]

I am planning on going back to hydro for my new setup, and am thinking very seriously about using Bato buckets. After searching the site for grows using this technique, it's become pretty obvious that it isn't very popular around here! Everything that I read (elsewhere) says that it is a very effective, time-tested, and simple system. What the hell am I missing?

Well, I am doing {EDIT (Recirc)} "bato buckets" this run after getting tired of RDWC. I explained my system in a thread "whats your gpw...". I just didnt know what the name is. I have also built and tried about every could think of when it comes to hydro except a fogger system. And I must say, bato buckets, if thats what you wanna call em, are my personal favorite!

I have 5 gal buckets filled completely w hydroton with holes drilled in bottom and that sits in another bucket which drains back to res. My veg room looks just the picture. For added headroom I have a low profile res(4x4 about 14" tall) in flower. Currently the buckets sit on top of res (custom lid). But I may put a some sort of spacer directly in res and set buckets on top. Then cover the res w poly with pvc pipe for support with hole cut for buckets.

Five gal buckets are huge but I am growing huge plants, 4 per meter^2. I have 2 gal buckets from an Ebb & Grow system that I may rock next run and double plants per m^2. So anyone w a ebb&grow can convert by puttin on a table and top feedin. A lot less to worry about and I think better results than the way its set up from CAPs ebb&grow. Timer intervals are too long and the controller bucket is not commercial quality. Sooner or later a pump will fail or a float will stick, etc...

 

[Priest The Inde]

Hi.

I'm a newbie planning on Bato buckets for my first grow. Where I live is warm and close to the Equator. I was planning to veg the plants indoor under 24 hour light then move them outdoors to a greenhouse to take advantage of the equal natural day light cycles.
I thought I might run a DTW system to start off with, until I get the hang of things and use the waste to water my vegetable garden.

Anyone got any words of advice? I'd really appreciate it. I can't afford to make any mistakes because I have to order all my bits and pieces from very VERY far. Takes at least three weeks for anything to arrive, and customs are a bunch of hyenas.

Priest.

 

[swisscheese]

I'm a fan of hempy style buckets and beds but this is also very interesting to me. Now I may have to experiment again!