Whats up with my roots?

[inreplyavalon]

You sure you don't have springtails?

I am sure i do sometimes have springtales. Have seen them when hunting for other insects with my magnify glass. They are one of the easier insects to identify as they actually jump using their tails.




The damage you are probably seeing is watering, PH related.

If the "YOU" in the above sentece is ME, it has been confirmed a while back that i DO HAVE ROOT APHIDS.

Have stared at many through a looking glass and seen all the excretions, damages, and actual aphids themselves. I appreciate your help greenlung, and have benefited from it before, but this issue has been diagnosed, and correctly.
When this thread began i was so frustrated having not yet seem any aphids that i was grasping at straws. Fact is, watering coco is not rocket science and anyone doing it for a few years should be a master at it. Its hardly an exact science and we all know how weeds grow. this is the other plants in the room. there are eight other lights that look just like it. Day 27-28.

Hardly perfect but watering is the least of my worries.

Maybe i ought to add an edit to page one and let folks know this is no longer a mystery and has become more of a 'root aphids in coco thread'

Anyhow many thanks to everyone that has contributed, and remember if you got problems it may not be root aphids, but it might

 

[inreplyavalon]

every time I check out this thread I think the same thing..
maybe its time to take a step back and start with the basics. ditch all the crazy stuff and just go with plain water, basic nutes, and PH drops.. I've had problems like this before and after pulling hair and questioning everything I know it turns out to be something as simple as a crappy PH meter.

Thats good advice. Thanks.

I am also guessing that the folks that are so sure these signs are not root aphids, have never dealt with them before.

Plants that are drinking a gallon of water a day, for three weeks straight, and then overnight it now takes them 4+ days to drink a gallon, thats got nothing to do with pH or over/underwatering IMHO. If this above scenario ever happens to any of you, get out the magnify glass and go find yourselves an aphid. A Root Aphid

 

[poo-hand]

Thats good advice. Thanks.

I am also guessing that the folks that are so sure these signs are not root aphids, have never dealt with them before.

Plants that are drinking a gallon of water a day, for three weeks straight, and then overnight it now takes them 4+ days to drink a gallon, thats got nothing to do with pH or over/underwatering IMHO. If this above scenario ever happens to any of you, get out the magnify glass and go find yourselves an aphid. A Root Aphid

Just out of curiosity are you using a PH meter and if so what kind?

 

[inreplyavalon]

Just out of curiosity are you using a PH meter and if so what kind?

Hanna Gro-Check calibrated monthly.

 

[poo-hand]

Just for kicks and giggles try checking the PH with your meter and then with some PH drops. I had a problem very similar to yours a few years back after going round and round I decided to double check my nutes with PH drops and was suprised to see how off my PH was. I was nearly 100% positive my problems were due to critters.

You very well may have root aphids I've never (knock on wood) experienced them in all my time using coco.

 

[Roof Berry]

if your roots dont smell and look like shit you probably dont have them. Its hard to see in coco, I transplanted to a sterile white medium and about a week later it was obvious i had aphids because there were aphids on the roots.

How can that guy have a room with that many plants without the experience of knowing how to use a pH meter

 

[Snow Crash]

For what it is worth... I have burned through 3 pH probes on my Hanna GroCheck (the blue one that does uS/cm, pH and Temp). Hanna has had to replace all of them for me for free.

Then again... I was running Cutting Edge Solutions with Plant Amp that drops the pH down under 5.0pH. At first I was TRIPPING out over their low pH level but over time (and with a lot of close monitoring of in-out pH levels) I lost my fears over pH in coco. It has been my experience that if you use an organic acid, like Fulvic, that the pH of the solution really doesn't matter much.

Root Aphids are assholes. They are really making the rounds in the Bay Area medical scene... As if the Borg wasn't enough to deal with already.

I wish you luck in your battle against this formidable opponent. Starting "clean" is probably your only option. I have been using HotShot NoPest strips with a lot of success killing bugs but I still worry about using such an effective pesticide around my ladies.

 

[Roof Berry]

I contacted Ortho, the company that makes the malathion i bought for the aphids because of chimera's suggestion to 40Amps, and because it says on the bottle kills aphids. They say that they do not recommend the used of malathion as a soil drench and for controlling aphids.

very frustrating

 

[Granger2]

Continuing Saga
Two days ago I tried something I hadn't thought of, though I've had it on hand for 3 or 4 years. Cedarcide
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1YUjbyjpvU&lr=1&user=cedarcidepestcontrol
http://www.cedarcidestore.com/natural_pest_control.html

I drenched everything with 1 Tbl/gal of Cedarcide PCO. Tried it on a test plant the day before. No phytotoxicity.

Today, I radically examined the worst plant out of 29, not counting newly rooted cuttings. I removed it from its 1 gal Aero Bag and inspected [with my glasses on] the Coco80%/perlite20% medium. I inspected it handful by handful, thoroughly stirring and sifting every last bit of medium. Also inspected the inside and outside of the AeroBag.

I observed nothing that moved. The day before, I drenched the test plant. About 1 minute after, I looked at the soil surface to see if any thing was crawling out. I happened to be looking where one [the only one] of them emerged. He crawled about 3/4 inch, then slowed way down for a 1/4 inch, stopped, kicked for about 5-10 seconds, then was still. In pace requiescat, you little sombitch.

I will update this as time goes on. Cedarcide works as a repellent, it screws up the insect/mite's pheromone system, kind of making them go haywire. They will at least go away, but when they come in contact with it, as with a drench, it kills them. Eggs and larvae are particularly vulnerable to the penetration effect [see video].

I plan to treat again next week at about 10 days after the first treatment. Then, they claim that it works for about a month, so again in about 3 weeks. I also will use my electric fogger inside and outside my grow room, and storeroom.

If this works, it will be a very doable option-organic, easy to use, smells nice, no mess, doesn't harm microherd, $75 for enough for about 4-6 treatments.

Check it out. -granger

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Botanigard + 5 million nematodes of 2 different varieties = my plants recovered and are well into flowering a healthy green. I lost a 1/3 or so of my crop and they even survived being put in garbage bags but they recovered and this has never happened before. They are a bright green and some are 4 foot.

I only did one application and fogged my house with pyretherin foggers and my plants are green with no signs of bugs anywhere. I won't say I am cured until I finish 2 grow successfully, but my plants went from trashbags to green and tall with this treatment.

PS got my nematodes from arbico organics they were 2 day delivery and gave me millions more than other companies for 1/2 the cost or more.

 

[Sam87]

Update: With the purchase of a USB microscope, I have found the little bastards in all stages. They are small, and quick. Numbers are much lower than I suspect would be normal, and plant health is generally well, but just showing the early signs. Thankfully, everything is big enough to start a heavy treatment routine.

If this does not work, I'll be switching back to the "Organic Nut" regimen. Nothing but a crapload of bacteria, and fungi. And nematodes, it looks like.

40Amps, how did you apply the Botanigard and Nematodes? All in one dose, or Botanigard and Pyretherins before hand?

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Pyreth fog, then botanigard, and nematodes 2 days later when they came in the mail with a chapin sprayer. If you use a sprayer make sure it doesn't have a filter.

 

[Abja Roots]

So it took me scrapping everything, and starting over to finally have a crop that is looking decent. I've got my fingers crossed that it will stay like this.

To split the risk I did half my plants in a pre-amended soil mix, which is just add water. The other half I did in pure coco, which has been my method for a while. I added Met 52 to all of them. So far it seems like it's going to work out.

I can't say for sure why these are looking good. As far as I'm concerned this is just one more issue to consider when growing. For too long I focused on just mites, which have been a huge issue out here in the Bay Area and northern California in general. Powder mildew was the other issue that we would generally contend with. I've given a heads up to lots of my friends about this. It's worth doing this as a preventative, even if you have not had any issues. I can't see how it could do any harm.

Best of luck to everyone. Thanks a bunch for all your advice and sharing your experiences.

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

Sorry to hear you had to go the route I thought I was and still may have to, Abja. I hope you have innumerable blessed gardens from now on. I would recommend everyone pretreat all your grows with nematodes since they are so damn cheap and organic. Hope no one else has to go that route.

 

[inreplyavalon]

Nematodes seem like a nice added precaution. Do you think Met52 would adversely effect the Nematodes?

I have used Botanigard in flower the last two rounds. One or two applications about two weeks in. One thing about it is that at 15ml/g, the day after drench, my room smells mildew/musty for a few weeks after. Its quite strong and takes my strawberry diesel getting to about six weeks flower to start overpowering the mildew smell. I hypothesis that it has something to do with the oilyness of the botanigard. Anyhow it seems to help a bit with control, though i have seen an aphid crawl around the coco a few days after. Must have missed her.

I have had some continued success with Met52 and some issues with it as well. I used about 10-20x the recommended dose on some fresh rooted clones and it seems the mold from the breaking down rice grains that the met52 is transported on, has caused a bad fungus outbreak in my coco. Not the met52 fungus, but some nasty one. Its cause necrosis of the leaves. I guess it actually is possible to use too much MET52.
The flower room where only 2-3x recommended dose is on week 6 and looks strong.

I am finding that growing from seed with root aphids is VERY challenging. The seeds just put out roots at too slow a rate to beat out the aphids before medicines can take effect. Clones out of my cloner with big phat root systems tend to fair much better. I have ended up scrapping nearly a grand in seeds in the last six months from these bastards.

 

[pinecone]

I have had some continued success with Met52 and some issues with it as well. I used about 10-20x the recommended dose on some fresh rooted clones and it seems the mold from the breaking down rice grains that the met52 is transported on, has caused a bad fungus outbreak in my coco. Not the met52 fungus, but some nasty one. Its cause necrosis of the leaves. I guess it actually is possible to use too much MET52.

People grow mycelium in rice flour mixtures so it is really not a surprise that the rice was quick to colonize with some fungus. What is shocking is that the fungus is causing problems. Growers in the organic forum have experimented with adding rice flour and oat flour as fungal food in soil mixes without any problems. How much rice is 10-20x as much per pot? Is there any concern that another fungus will out compete the Met?

Pine

 

[hydr1]

Glad you guys are killing these bastards.
I meant no harm or disrespect with my previous post. Jut want to see everyone able to grow without these things comming around.

When I said I had got rid of them forever BOTH times, means two locations. I have friends battling these things all over the world and they end their problems with the treatment that I suggested. These things can enter at any time and are running free in our ecosystems. You cant spray or soak with chemicals forever...you can, but why would you want to. We get enough chems in our daily lives as is.
Prevention can be acheived in other ways.

I'm glad you have your problems sorted and I wish the best for all. Sorry if I came off wrong. Just trying to help. Good grows to all. Peace

 

[zor]

Pyreth fog, then botanigard, and nematodes 2 days later when they came in the mail with a chapin sprayer. If you use a sprayer make sure it doesn't have a filter.

40, iirc, the botaniguard did not work for you on its own. Are you seeing better results with the combo of fungus and 'todes?

also, are these plants you speak of treated with met 52 as well?

I've used the nematodes before in conjunction with lady bugs and that combo seemed to have keep them from repopulating treated plants.

I'm not sure if it was the ladybugs /nematodes or both.

Although I've read over and over from people that haven't tried them, that lady bugs don't work against aphids since the aphids work there way into the root zone. However, on many occasions, i saw lady bugs crawling up and down the fabric of my smart pots even on the inside of the pot.

I also have seen them chilling out around the netpot of a hydro bucket cleaning the roots off.

So even if this is no cure all, i'd be suprised if the ladybugs/nema's had no effect. When i started using them, i got some slackfrom the 'imid wipes em out completely' crowd, but I have yet to read about any first hand experiences with them for aphids on any site.

Like the nematode, ladybugs can help imo,and most of the people saying it won't work have never tried it and are going on hear say.

Just wanted to share this and put the info out there. Hopefully , others will give feedback.

 

[zor]

I have ended up scrapping nearly a grand in seeds in the last six months from these bastards.

Same shit happened to me when i first discovered i i had em. I finally got over my fear of popping new beans recently wiht some cheaper seeds (fms).

At the risk of sounding like a castings fan boy, i found that a mixture heavy in worm castings along with worm teas and azamax spray /drenches got beans off to a good start. Even with fliers still lurking, they grew as normal.

 

[40AmpstoFreedom]

40, iirc, the botaniguard did not work for you on its own. Are you seeing better results with the combo of fungus and 'todes?

also, are these plants you speak of treated with met 52 as well?

I've used the nematodes before in conjunction with lady bugs and that combo seemed to have keep them from repopulating treated plants.

I'm not sure if it was the ladybugs /nematodes or both.

Although I've read over and over from people that haven't tried them, that lady bugs don't work against aphids since the aphids work there way into the root zone. However, on many occasions, i saw lady bugs crawling up and down the fabric of my smart pots even on the inside of the pot.

I also have seen them chilling out around the netpot of a hydro bucket cleaning the roots off.

So even if this is no cure all, i'd be suprised if the ladybugs/nema's had no effect. When i started using them, i got some slackfrom the 'imid wipes em out completely' crowd, but I have yet to read about any first hand experiences with them for aphids on any site.

Like the nematode, ladybugs can help imo,and most of the people saying it won't work have never tried it and are going on hear say.

Just wanted to share this and put the info out there. Hopefully , others will give feedback.

Ladybugs do indeed ravage aphids that come out of your soil medium but due to their size they cannot get into the root ball and kill the colony.

This is why I did not order any of the large beneficials and went with 2 beneficial nematodes that are MOBILE and small enough to go anywhere.

The two I ordered were:

Steinernema feltiae

and

Steinernema carpocapsae

http://www.arbico-organics.com/product/NemAttack-Nematodes-Carpocapsae

My plants are all flowering and perfectly green now like nothing ever happened, they went from garbage bags to repotted and revegged in 1-2 weeks like nothing had attacked them with white roots to show for it. The only noticeable damage from the attack was the yellow and nutrient deficient leaves from when the bugs attacked at the bottom of the plants. EVERY PLANT HAD BROWN DIEING ROOTS.

I am in awe that my plants are now budding and smelling great...They should be dead like my other grows, even more so having been trashed and then taken back out...

Drop the $$ on botanigard and buy these nematodes. Nothing else worked for me it was a steady decline with no rehabilitation with everything else I tried.

I will for now on pretreat every crop with nematodes and one dose of botanigard before flowering. 10 million nematodes for 40$ is an amazing army. I call them my preatorian guards heh.

A bonus is that botanigard and the nematodes attack both aphids and fungus gnats so if your misdiagnosing the two they will still be killed. LOTS OF PEOPLE MISDIAGNOSE.

PS I did not bother with any met 52 when I repotted to 1 gallons...botan and nematodes worked. there is a reason all the big agricultural suppliers use nematodes, get with it because they build resistance to chemicals rendering them useless.