What will improve drainage and aeration...

[sso]

rocks in the bottom is done for mainly the same reason people put newspaper in the bottom.

to prevent the soil from escaping though the bottom holes.

if the peat moss is so absorbant, why not just use less of that and more of some of the other mediums?
probably perlite if you are having real problems.

drilling holes in the sides, does work somewhat, or at least i think so lol, but can be bit problematic when you water, gotta water slow or sometimes the water shoots out the holes (usually bit further than the tray..)

 

[mad librettist]

the peat moss is so absorbant, why not just use less of that and more of some of the other mediums?

absorption is not the issue here. The problem is particle size, or put another way, the water held between particles, not within them.

adding "aeration" amendments will do nothing for aeration or drainage unless they represent a majority of the particles in your medium. Yes, you are reading right - I am claiming that a 60/40 peaterlite mix will drain about the same as a 80/20 mix. The only difference will be that the 80/20 mix has more water to get rid of. A 20/80 mix of peaterlite will drain just like 40/60, and so on.

This is why I recommend a wick. A wick will remove your perched water, and your results will surpass what you get with "added drainage".

 

[Manstien]

Yeah sorry Mad, I should have understood more from that video but I'm very slow...heh...so yeah...I understand my medium is what has to be improved but since I already have these bags (lots of them) I simply cannot start over again...

.the original bags are 50% "organix mix soil", 40% peatmoss, 10% hort sand....so to improve this I add natural soil, to go up to 60% soil, 10-15% perlite, some EWC, and to be left with 20% peatmoss......this is the best I can do since supply trips are very limited....thats why I was eyeing bark as a drainage solution...since its natural and easy to get in the forest....I understand the wick would be the best option since it would provide that "negative" sucking pressure on the medium.....

I think I could design some simple wick system with a synthetic cloth or T-shirt......It's either the wick system or drilling holes I guess...both are alot of work though on this scale...I'm really hoping this alteration of the original soil bags helps and the summer wind/heat/sun also dries it out better than I have seen with the original bags......

Anybody got links for someone using the wick system? I know its simple but I'd like to see a visual...I will search for it when I get back... thanks everyone ...

 

[mad librettist]

Yeah sorry Mad, I should have understood more from that video but I'm very slow...heh...so yeah...I understand my medium is what has to be improved but since I already have these bags (lots of them) I simply cannot start over again...

exactly! so use a wick and keep your improved CEC, water retention, etc... once the pot is fully colonized by roots your structure is taken care of.

It's either the wick system or drilling holes I guess...both are alot of work though on this scale.

do both!


Bury a strip of cloth, say 2 inches wide, and have it come all the up the inside of the pot, and maybe another foot. If you can bury the free end in soil you are golden. If you are going through a dry spell, just put the free end in water.

 

[Rednick]

If you don't want to drill holes, you can always heat up nails with a torch and burn your holes in the plastic.
Well ventilated area, pls.

 

[h.h.]

As said a heated object might be easier for making holes. I use a razor knife, cutting big holes. I cover them with old coffee filters, shade cloth, fiberglass cloth though you have to be careful with root growth into the cloth. I find coffee filters the best in that regards.
I had the same problem trying to figure out what to do with my perlite. It ended up around my potatoes. I find it goes to shit after awhile and I want to keep reusing my soil. I don't want decomposed perlite. I would rather have something silica based adding silica.

 

[Manstien]

Great points everyone this is why I love IC.......one last question that wasn't answered though..... Would you guys add 2tsp (28g) of super-powderized dolomite lime to a 20% peatmoss mix? or should I be adding less?

 

[Manstien]

Anyone? Very urgent.....2tsp(28g)/per gallon for 20% peatmoss medium?????

 

[trichrider]

imo you could use alot more dolomite lime without concern.

 

[TwistedTommy]

My $0.02........shoot for 30-40% perilite in your mix.

 

[mad librettist]

What will improve drainage and aeration...

My $0.02........shoot for 30-40% perilite in your mix.

that is quite a bit of perlite, and yet still not enough to affect drainage characteristics.

with 40% perlite you have very reduced ability to hold water. and since it drains the same, you are going from perched water to too dry with little time at optimal moisture.

 

[ImaginaryFriend]

"He said water drains (or is sucked out) via capillary action and that any air gaps will stop the capillary action, therefore large matter in the bottom wouldnt actually do anything." any truth to this?

I wasn't going to comment on this when I read it last night... but it bothered me a bit. Mad respect for you Mad, but as you seem to be the coherent proponent of this idea in this thread, I gotta go the other way on this one.

Capillary action is a major player in water distribution throughout media. Big player. It is super important to understand (or at least try and observe) your media with regard to this characteristic.

But to say that it alone effects the drainage capacity of a media overlooks gravity.

The smaller the particle size, the larger the perched water table (and more dramatic the capillary action).

By putting a layer of larger material across your bottom, you are not pushing up the perched water table. I tried to type 'unless' to soften this comment, but there is no unless.

If you fill it with rocks/gravel such that they contact each other, water will adhere, and in conjunction with it's internal cohesion and gravity, it will drain your PWT. Rocks in the bottom of your pot will act as a wick. True story.

Don't agree? Do the experiment. Watch the results. Then do whatever works for you.

 

[mad librettist]

What will improve drainage and aeration...

I wasn't going to comment on this when I read it last night... but it bothered me a bit. Mad respect for you Mad, but as you seem to be the coherent proponent of this idea in this thread, I gotta go the other way on this one.

Capillary action is a major player in water distribution throughout media. Big player. It is super important to understand (or at least try and observe) your media with regard to this characteristic.

But to say that it alone effects the drainage capacity of a media overlooks gravity.

The smaller the particle size, the larger the perched water table (and more dramatic the capillary action).

By putting a layer of larger material across your bottom, you are not pushing up the perched water table. I tried to type 'unless' to soften this comment, but there is no unless.

If you fill it with rocks/gravel such that they contact each other, water will adhere, and in conjunction with it's internal cohesion and gravity, it will drain your PWT. Rocks in the bottom of your pot will act as a wick. True story.

Don't agree? Do the experiment. Watch the results. Then do whatever works for you.

you are saying rocks pull water harder than a soil mix?


seriously?

I think this one is quite well documented. without leaving IC, just do a search for secondtry's infamous threads.

rocks in the bottom do not act like a wick. a wick in the bottom acts like a wick. Rocks - act like rocks.


and btw, you want your wick to pull water away from the bottom of the pot.

and an everyday illustration of this - when I am hunting for specimens, I use small pots on a bed of wet gravel. if I put the pots on wet gravel, the soil pulls water up. when the gravel dries out, or at any other time, the little containers hold perched water and have to be tipped to drain.

how is it my soil mix can pull water up, but the gravel can't pull water down, despite having gravity on it side?

now take a look at your pants. if i take that material and stuff it into a pot, will it hold perched water? yes! and it holds more perched water than dirt. ergo, it is suitable material for overcoming the hydrophilic properties if the soil mix.

 

[Manstien]

Mad, what type of synthetic material/cloth would be good to use? I will put the wick through the medium and out a hole in the bottem/side of the container but not that close to the ground...sound good?

Also if anyone can answer: If you can't mix dolomite lime and nitrogen....are things like EWC ok? has anyone had the nitrogen dolomite lime problem before? I think my organic soil will keep them thriving until I can mix in EWC, Chicken shit or gunao's, but when should I do this....

 

[mad librettist]

Mad, what type of synthetic material/cloth would be good to use? I will put the wick through the medium and out a hole in the bottem/side of the container but not that close to the ground...sound good?

the only requirement is that it wicks. poly-anything. run it from the bottom all the way up the top via the soil, or do what you planned.

 

[h.h.]

Man, Sorry for not replying to your lime question. I kind of just do what everybody else here does and haven't played around with it too much. I didn't use it this grow and wish maybe I had. I just don't have many personal experiences to relate.
I used strips off of an old synthetic sheepskin seat cover running several inches out the bottom. Poly rope should work. I used pieces of an old soaker hose, soaker tubing as well though I didn't pay much attention the results at the time.

 

[Manstien]

Interesting, a rope would work nice ...because I need atleast 50-100 feet...I'm gonna go to homedepot and maybe bring a water bottle to see how much water it can absorb.....

Np about the dolomite lime....people have told me that I shouldn't worry much about things like Earth worm castings, or other organics with dolomite lime.....I wonder if its just very high nitrogen products 10+-*-* ??? Has anyone had problems mixing dolomite lime with nitrogen....and what product where you using?

 

[Scrappy4]

Isn't a fabric pot a wick of sorts? scrappy

 

[mad librettist]

What will improve drainage and aeration...

Isn't a fabric pot a wick of sorts? scrappy

of sorts... yes.


it just happens to be in the wrong place. ie around the soil instead of inside.

your perched water certainly evaporates faster with a fabric pot.

 

[h.h.]

My apologies for not giving credit to whomever first posted this. I thought it was Mad
http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hosta/msg0317110015862.html
It mentions using a synthetic mophead for wicks..