WHAT IS THIS

[Tyga]

Just came back from the garden and pulled out the blumats and gave the girls a good ole hand watering. And watched VERY closely at the coco and to see if any bugs were present or If any bugs tried to go up the stem when they were being watered and I didn't see anything.
I Will admit there are a few "Flyers" In the room which I see 10-15 on the sticky trap but nothing to crazy.... The trap has been up for well over a month... I will try my best to take a look at the root zone and see what's going on (IF anything). Really hoping it was the tubing.... Heres a few more shots of how some are being straight SMASHED and some are doing OK...
Seriously damaged...

Damaged

Leaf symptoms..

Leaf symptoms

Leaf symptoms...

 

[Gardens Keeper]

Did you take any preventive measures when you first noticed fliers? If you did nothing this is most likely what ails you. Now that the tubing is out work on getting this under control. If it is root aphids they are done since you have fliers already. If they are fungus gnats you can probably recoup but you will suffer yield and quality issues most likely. CoCo is way more of a volatile thing to grow in like hydro there is no natural balance of insects and organisms to control bugs and coco is way easier for these bugs to navigate and mass produce in. So if you did nothing to stop these when first noticed they may have increased in numbers enough to ruin your roots and start giving you root rot ;\

I only recommend natural biological controls so if this is root aphids I recommend you pick up an aphid parasite from an insectary like the link I provide below. If it is fungus gnats I recommend hypoaspis miles. There are many insectaries so feel free to shop around. I have found most synthetic chemicals to be completely ineffective for recurrent infestations as well as almost never completely working so I no longer recommend them, especially in coco. Regardless biological controls are astoundingly more effective.

http://www.rinconvitova.com/catalog-beneficials.htm

 

[Tyga]

Did you take any preventive measures when you first noticed fliers? If you did nothing this is most likely what ails you. Now that the tubing is out work on getting this under control. If it is root aphids they are done since you have fliers already. If they are fungus gnats you can probably recoup but you will suffer yield and quality issues most likely. CoCo is way more of a volatile thing to grow in like hydro there is no natural balance of insects and organisms to control bugs and coco is way easier for these bugs to navigate and mass produce in. So if you did nothing to stop these when first noticed they may have increased in numbers enough to ruin your roots and start giving you root rot ;\

I only recommend natural biological controls so if this is root aphids I recommend you pick up an aphid parasite from an insectary like the link I provide below. If it is fungus gnats I recommend hypoaspis miles. There are many insectaries so feel free to shop around. I have found most synthetic chemicals to be completely ineffective for recurrent infestations as well as almost never completely working so I no longer recommend them, especially in coco. Regardless biological controls are astoundingly more effective.

http://www.rinconvitova.com/catalog-beneficials.htm

Thanks man.... How do I go about finding if they are aphids or just fliers? Take a look at the root zone? Any soil drenches I can hit them with that wont cause any damage if they aren't present? Just as sort of a prevenative measure? Assuming they arent already there.

 

[Gardens Keeper]

I tried the root drench rout with many chemicals and I always found it to be more harmful than beneficial. Almost all of them have some sort of oil natural or not and since your roots are taking damage it becomes much more tricky to water and not drown your girls. As a result I don't think root drenches are ever good with any chemical preventive or reactive. A teaspoon of hypoaspis miles per container will eradicate fungus gnats completely in 2-3 days and stick around for as long as they have a food source. In the case of organic soil they will stay around the whole cycle since there is a natural biology and that means nematodes etc. it can eat off of. In coco they tend to disappear much quicker after all the food supply has disappeared. To solve this problem provide them with pollen they can eat off of. A bonus of male plants or order it online as there are many pollen dealers.

 

[SeaMaiden]

GK, I totally appreciate what you're saying about all of this, but I did two full runs with those damn things (the RAs) and it looked nothing like what's being pictured here. Not saying it's impossible, but if he's got few flyers though he's had the sticky traps out, that suggests that RAs are not the root of the problem. I find myself wondering if he tried to flower in another area what might happen.

Tyga, another member here has been doing hot water drenches (not soaks) to good success. He's growing in rockwool, and I wish to HELL I could remember the thread he was posting in! That would be the best way to deal with RAs, IMO, since you've already put them into flower. When I was dealing with RAs I ended up using Spectracide with Triazicide (the stuff I was reading about at the time was Merit75, Bayer Tree & Shrub, that sort of stuff) specifically because of its pre-harvest interval.

Have you turned any plants out of their pots and examined the roots? If you have I missed that.

 

[Gardens Keeper]

@seamaiden definitely agree. I lost nearly everything to them. It also didn't look like this I had many more nutrient deficiencies these seem too exacting! Inexpiable ones. Fungus gnats seem to do the same thing but not near as much damage as quickly as RA's. I really think it was his tubing + the bugs (doing their minor part), but with these things it is best not to settle on hunches!

I too would much like to see him flower in another room next time with all of these parameters in check, but it may not be possible for him hopefully it is though. I am out of explanations for this one currently and have settled on the tubing being the main issue. I will be keeping this thread in mind though and will continue to follow it until we get a conclusion.

 

[Tyga]

GK, I totally appreciate what you're saying about all of this, but I did two full runs with those damn things (the RAs) and it looked nothing like what's being pictured here. Not saying it's impossible, but if he's got few flyers though he's had the sticky traps out, that suggests that RAs are not the root of the problem. I find myself wondering if he tried to flower in another area what might happen.

Tyga, another member here has been doing hot water drenches (not soaks) to good success. He's growing in rockwool, and I wish to HELL I could remember the thread he was posting in! That would be the best way to deal with RAs, IMO, since you've already put them into flower. When I was dealing with RAs I ended up using Spectracide with Triazicide (the stuff I was reading about at the time was Merit75, Bayer Tree & Shrub, that sort of stuff) specifically because of its pre-harvest interval.

I did take a peak today at some of the "Healthier" plants just because the others have not established enough roots and would just fall apart if I tried to take a look. I took a glance and All I seen was healthy white/off white colored roots. Couldn't see any sort of bugs but this was with the naked eye. Can't seem to locate my loupe but am scooping another one up tomorrow so I can get a better look.
Most likely will just sacrifice one of the plants to get a good look at the roots because If things don't turn around soon I'm most likely going to have to scrap yet another round and start from scratch...

Have you turned any plants out of their pots and examined the roots? If you have I missed that.

I did take a peak today at some of the "Healthier" plants just because the others have not established enough roots and would just fall apart if I tried to take a look. I took a glance and All I seen was healthy white/off white colored roots. Couldn't see any sort of bugs but this was with the naked eye. Can't seem to locate my loupe but am scooping another one up tomorrow so I can get a better look.
Most likely will just sacrifice one of the plants to get a good look at the roots because If things don't turn around soon I'm most likely going to have to scrap yet another round and start from scratch...

 

[Kush Technician]

It cant hurt to test the merit75 or bayer t&s on just one plant. It really doesn't harm the plants at all; for someone who said it hurts more than helps -- not true. All I know is I mix up some bayer t&s to 200 ppm in ro water, adjust ph, and get to work. In my experience this does not harm the plants at all, and usually the plants regain their vigor before your eyes. You will see dead RAs in the runoff once you have applied the stuff.

EDIT: Noticing that you are in flower. You should probably trash the problem plants and not apply any chems.

 

[Tyga]

Man I am getting seriously depressed from this shit.... so close to just pulling the plug all together. I was thinking Root Aphids because the description of the systems is so fucking spot on to my situation that I would have bet my damn life that was what was causing this!
Not sure If I should be happy or mad but I have confirmed that it is not Root Aphids.... Took a look at the root zone and roots seem pretty healthy for the most part. Also took a look with a 30x Loupe and not a sign of anything... I still ended up pulling all the plants besides to 2 healthiest which I will keep on growing.
Now the signs are slowly starting to pop up in the veg tent... I have spent so much time/money/ and effort into getting to the bottom of this and I just can't figure it out..... Heres a few more shots I guess..
Roots, Brown chunks are rock wool...

Roots from a weaker plant that was pulled

Veg plant leaves

More damages leaves

 

[Gardens Keeper]

Use your loupe to ID the the bugs on the sticky trap. Make sure they are not adult RA's. Look up pictures of adults and compare the wings and main body. Fungus Gnats are similar but they do not have the same shape body and the wing is different should be easy to tell.

Now sit and and stare at the top of your soil for awhile. If you don't see anything moving breath on it. Usually breathing on it makes them come to the top. If it was a fungus gnat infestation you should see lots of fliers and when it is too far gone you have maggots in the run off. Fungus gnats can be tricky and there can be A LOT more than you think. I have recurrent infestations in my state but hypoaspis miles completely cured me of this for 9 months now. I see a rare flier trying to start a colony every once in awhile and thank it for feeding my predator mites.

When you mentioned off white roots were they sort of brownish? This indicates root rot from root damage whether it be bugs or over watering. Were your blumats possibly giving your plants too much water? You could have drowned your roots, but this really takes some effort to do in coco keeping it constantly sopping wet. I hand watered and drowned mine accidentally a few times.

I know it can be incredibly frustrating especially when dealing with bugs, but hang in there. Hopefully your not income dependent when it comes to growing. I hope you don't have RA's they can be a nightmare to get rid of without beneficial insects and are very good at hiding. If it is just fungus gnats be comforted they are extremely easy to control and eradicate.

 

[Tyga]

Def fungus gnats! which is a relief... sort of. problem is I still don't know whats going onnn
Mine

Fungus gnat

 

[Gardens Keeper]

Alright now pop for the hypoaspis miles (shipping is expensive but you can propagate them in a spare bin of soil or feed them pollen) OR order Gnatrol WDG. Gnatrol is pretty cheap and works as well as being OMRI. Do not go buy that other shit like azamax, gognats, pyrethrum pesticides with cedar oil etc. They will just damage your roots even more especially in coco. I don't want you chasing your tail with chemicals killing bugs only to create serious root damage so do one of the two things I recommended and I guarantee you will never have fear of those things again. The hypoaspis miles are the atomic bomb plain and simple. Not to mention they eat a ton of different insects like thrips, other mites that stick low to the ground, destructive nematodes, list goes on. Your root damage is from the larvae of the gnats eating it. Gnats are much more detrimental in coco than soil but can ruin crops in any medium.

 

[Tyga]

Alright now pop for the hypoaspis miles (shipping is expensive but you can propagate them in a spare bin of soil or feed them pollen) OR order Gnatrol WDG. Gnatrol is pretty cheap and works as well as being OMRI. Do not go buy that other shit like azamax, gognats, pyrethrum pesticides with cedar oil etc. They will just damage your roots even more especially in coco. I don't want you chasing your tail with chemicals killing bugs only to create serious root damage so do one of the two things I recommended and I guarantee you will never have fear of those things again. The hypoaspis miles are the atomic bomb plain and simple. Not to mention they eat a ton of different insects like thrips, other mites that stick low to the ground, destructive nematodes, list goes on. Your root damage is from the larvae of the gnats eating it. Gnats are much more detrimental in coco than soil but can ruin crops in any medium.

So you think all this damage is from fungus gnats?

 

[Gardens Keeper]

Still will not rule out tubing causing possible off-gassing. No way for me to analyze it or test it for my self ;\ Your damage does look like fungus gnats it just so happens it could have also been K deficiency or off-gassing. They look similar which is why this often turns into a process of elimination. RA's tend to give you much more erratic deficiencies. Put it this way you KNOW you have fungus gnats now. They have to be dealt with or they will ruin your crop.

 

[Kush Technician]

Im thinking there must be an underlying cause of the fungus gnats. I dont know. Maybe some bad batch of coco? Fungus gnats larvae damage roots if Im not mistaken, but do they feed on fungus? Maybe the coco is just a bad bag and has too much fungi in it?

 

[Tyga]

Thanks guys. Going to re-hang some traps and hit them with a full dose of azamax tommorow.

 

[DrFever]

Tyga your ph is way out of wack here are some of the micro nutrients that you are lacking which is causing most of your issues
Manganese is immobile in plants; mobility in soil decreases with increasing pH. Soils very high in organic matter
or poorly drained are deficient at pH 5.8 to 6.5. For other soils, deficiency usually occurs between pH 6.5 and 8.0,
especially where soil has been heavily limed.
Toxic in very acid soil. Excessive water, poor aeration, and excess heavy metals influence Mn uptake.
Manganese increases availability of Ca, Mg, and P and is necessary for chlorophyll synthesis and photosynthesis.
Component of enzyme systems.
Deficiency symptoms
General: Yellow to white colored leaves, but with green veins. First noted on new growth. May have a typical
"gray speck"

in your last picture it is start of phos def dude you need to flush with mild nutrient feed get your ph back in proper range

 

[Tyga]

Tyga your ph is way out of wack here are some of the micro nutrients that you are lacking which is causing most of your issues
Manganese is immobile in plants; mobility in soil decreases with increasing pH. Soils very high in organic matter
or poorly drained are deficient at pH 5.8 to 6.5. For other soils, deficiency usually occurs between pH 6.5 and 8.0,
especially where soil has been heavily limed.
Toxic in very acid soil. Excessive water, poor aeration, and excess heavy metals influence Mn uptake.
Manganese increases availability of Ca, Mg, and P and is necessary for chlorophyll synthesis and photosynthesis.
Component of enzyme systems.
Deficiency symptoms
General: Yellow to white colored leaves, but with green veins. First noted on new growth. May have a typical
"gray speck"

in your last picture it is start of phos def dude you need to flush with mild nutrient feed get your ph back in proper range

PH. Of feed is always between 5.8-6.0.... My medium is coco..?

 

[MIway]

Ul figure it out

 

[DrFever]

are you flushing weekly cause coco has a over abundance of phos in it you need to flush them with shit load of Cal mag you obviously have a micronutrient def or locking out to much of one nutrient blocking out other as for lights bleaching i run my 1000's 18" from tops with no bleaching