It's only a "buzzword" to those that have no first hand experience with the difference between the end result of one method vs another...
dank.Frank
dank.Frank
What are 'True Organics' and 'Pseudo Organics' and what are the pros & cons of each?
- Thread starter VerdantGreen
- Start date
B
blazesck
I'm sure most of you veterans already have, but I recommend anyone interested in the idea of what should constitute "organic" and "natural" read The One-Straw Revolution by Masanobu Fukuoka. It's a short read, if that's a motivator for those without much of an attention span 
pseudostelariae
Active member
meh. you might be correct if you weren't definitely wrong. i've tried all organic and 'natural' methods of amending soil, just water, fed with teas, tried soilless blends with bottled nutrients, both organic and synthetic. when done properly they are all comparable. even well flushed hydro can turn to white ash with no foul chemical taste or feel.
when certain 'organic' products are loaded down with heavy metals, it's hard to take the whole realm of gardening seriously when growers are more willing to believe that something is 'good' just because it's referred to as 'organic' than they are to research the sources of these fertilizers, exactly what they contain and decide whether or not they line up with the whole idea of organic, sustainable growing.
it could be argued that synthetic nutrients provide a cleaner end product, considering they were engineered to contain an exact recipe and can be flushed completely, whereas in all organic growing, depending on what you are using, you might have some stuff in your soil you probably wouldn't want hanging around your ladies root systems. that said, i'm currently in an organic soil blend because i'm a caregrower and patients seem to prefer hearing their medicine is organic and it's about them so really, whatever makes them feel better.
Those who think that growing organically or naturally is dependent upon some product labelled as organic are short of the understanding of what growing with living soil is about. The member who referrred to One Straw is more on track.
Living soil growing is not dependent on certain ingredients but on sustained life in the soil. It is amusing to me that certain soil mixes, calling for water only, have been referred to as living soil. What makes a soil come to life is, time, structure (porosity) and organic matter. That, along with a certain volume. Once soil is sustaining life it produces with very minor organic matter input.
If one is referring to organic as in using labelled products, as mentioned, this can be of lesser harm but as pseudo pointed out can also contain harmful ingredients. It is important for the grower to check the labels and research the company. I encourage making one's own liquid amendments but not everyone wants to.
If it were true that synthetic fertilizers could be ' flushed completely' do we not think this would have been applied by the tobacco growers when confronted with the fact that the residues of phosphorus are stored in the glandular trichomes of the plant? As a prophet of what is to come, I hypothesize that this is only the tip of the iceberg and that in the future, many harmful residues caused by synthetic fertilizers will be found stored in plant tissues.
Living soil growing is not dependent on certain ingredients but on sustained life in the soil. It is amusing to me that certain soil mixes, calling for water only, have been referred to as living soil. What makes a soil come to life is, time, structure (porosity) and organic matter. That, along with a certain volume. Once soil is sustaining life it produces with very minor organic matter input.
If one is referring to organic as in using labelled products, as mentioned, this can be of lesser harm but as pseudo pointed out can also contain harmful ingredients. It is important for the grower to check the labels and research the company. I encourage making one's own liquid amendments but not everyone wants to.
If it were true that synthetic fertilizers could be ' flushed completely' do we not think this would have been applied by the tobacco growers when confronted with the fact that the residues of phosphorus are stored in the glandular trichomes of the plant? As a prophet of what is to come, I hypothesize that this is only the tip of the iceberg and that in the future, many harmful residues caused by synthetic fertilizers will be found stored in plant tissues.
And as more states around the world legalize, more research will be had and more truth will be sought after. Some people just need more of a nudge than others.....It's the difference between Whole Foods and Wal-Mart....
sadly, the majority of consumers are unaware of what residues may imply. i tend to be more concerned about pesticide &/or herbicide residues than fertilizer residues but, this is something which varies depending upon the nature of the produce. Clearly, as MM pointed out w/ glandular produce intended for combustion or vaporization {and even for eating} there are concerns beyond fertilizer residue in the typically considered sense {by those who bother to consider it}
still, the concern between conventional farming & even commercial organic extends also to what may not be in the final produce. commercial organic produce may not necessarily be nutrient dense or have good mineral content.
lol @ flushing btw
still, the concern between conventional farming & even commercial organic extends also to what may not be in the final produce. commercial organic produce may not necessarily be nutrient dense or have good mineral content.
lol @ flushing btw
pseudostelariae
Active member
interesting notion but i'm not sure commercial tobacco producers are terribly concerned with a relatively clean end product. perhaps 'completely' was too definitive a word to use but it seems it is possible to wash salt nutrients from a medium and have the plant eat up what remains in fan leaves at least. i'm not sure about tobacco because i haven't grown any but it would seem they harvest tobacco green and wouldn't want to flush out to a yellow plant considering the leaf is the end product.
You believe it is the act of flushing which causes yellowing of leaves? This is just straight forward botany.
The key words were glandular trichomes and tobacco was just given as an example. If you do some research you will ascertain that the tobacco companies were at a point concerned with this.
Someone just needs to have grown a small vegetable garden to be able to garner the vast superiority of naturally grown vegetable over the pale comparisons found at the market.
as commercial conventionally grown produce may be similarily or doubly void.
The key words were glandular trichomes and tobacco was just given as an example. If you do some research you will ascertain that the tobacco companies were at a point concerned with this.
Someone just needs to have grown a small vegetable garden to be able to garner the vast superiority of naturally grown vegetable over the pale comparisons found at the market.
as commercial conventionally grown produce may be similarily or doubly void.
pseudostelariae
Active member
i certainly hope i'm not irritating you. simply here to learn.
i was talking about the difference between finishing a living soil plant vs something like DWC. unless there is a deficiency or nutrient lockout, plants yellow because they are consuming reserve nutrients from the older leaves in order to further whatever it is the plant is producing, correct? with 'organics' it happens when a plant has used up all the available nutrients/gets old but in hydro, unless you remove the nutrients and substitute plain water, the plant will stay green even when the trichomes have matured and a lot of people have complained about this producing a harsh product compared to a plant that couldn't be flushed if you wanted to. i haven't compared sifted trichome heads from organic vs synthetic so i can't comment on the taste devoid of plant material.
it's interesting about what makes it into trichomes. i hadn't read anything about that and was more concerned with what goes into the vegetation but thinking about it, if 'bad' stuff doesn't go into the plant to begin with, it won't make it to the end product so anyone would do well to be conscious of that. i'll be sure to avoid alarmingly radioactive phosphorus fertilizers.
No irritation whatsoever. Cannabis is an annual and like all annuals enters senescence at or near life's end. Sometimes if there is an abundance of soluble N in the media this phase is extended and the foliage remains green. This might occur with missapplied salts or organic preparations with soluble or even too much non-composted manure
In natural growing 'most' nutrients are sequestered and are released via (CEC) microbial and/or plant excreted organic acids. Therefore when a plant enters senescence it will not uptake nitrogen (and other nutrients) even though there is still plenty of sequestered nitrogen remaining in the media to support at least most of the vegetative stage of a new plant. This is why I prefer using only [vermi]compost in mixes and topdressing with anything which may contain soluble nutrients.
In natural growing 'most' nutrients are sequestered and are released via (CEC) microbial and/or plant excreted organic acids. Therefore when a plant enters senescence it will not uptake nitrogen (and other nutrients) even though there is still plenty of sequestered nitrogen remaining in the media to support at least most of the vegetative stage of a new plant. This is why I prefer using only [vermi]compost in mixes and topdressing with anything which may contain soluble nutrients.
perhaps its because i use smaller pots, 3-4 gallon, or because i have been tweaking my mix for a few years now.... but i much prefer to mix my fast release/soluble ferts (bat guano) into my mix rather than top-dress. if you get the amounts just right then it tends to become depleted and kick-start senescence and recycling of Nitrogen from the green leaves during late flower. I find my plants fade out more convincingly than many of the organically grown plants i see pictured online - and imo thats a good thing because i find smoking quality to be directly related to the amount of fading / senescence that i have achieved by harvest.
ime its not just about the plant slowing down its N uptake from the roots... its about encouraging the plant to 'switch' the genetic trigger that causes it to use the N stored in it's green foliage.
VG
ime its not just about the plant slowing down its N uptake from the roots... its about encouraging the plant to 'switch' the genetic trigger that causes it to use the N stored in it's green foliage.
VG
I agree, VG. I'm not personally a big fan of top dressing. Given the choice, I'd always prefer to fully mix everything into the soil...
All about the right balance and proper ratios...and like yourself, I've been fine tuning my mix for years.
I also know via soil testing that my medium is not actually "depleted" - at least not fully - when plants enter into senescence...
Which ultimately just goes back to the plant being in complete control...when allowed to be. Even if there are nutrients remaining - the plant isn't taking more from the soil if it doesn't need to...
dank.Frank
All about the right balance and proper ratios...and like yourself, I've been fine tuning my mix for years.
I also know via soil testing that my medium is not actually "depleted" - at least not fully - when plants enter into senescence...
Which ultimately just goes back to the plant being in complete control...when allowed to be. Even if there are nutrients remaining - the plant isn't taking more from the soil if it doesn't need to...
dank.Frank
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This necessitates a remix for every planting cycle, something I've found through experience as unnecessary when employing living soil. I did practice what you are describing for 2 or 3 years after evolving from the use of soluble liquid fertilizers. Once we began utilizing living soil with enormous savings in man hours and supplies, with no loss in yield and an apparent increase in quality and decrease in pests and pathogens, there was no looking back. Of course, the initial mix contains as I previously outlined.
I'm not saying that this style is for everyone. It requires some unlearning of previously used techniques which are applicable to conventional horticulture, rather than natural.
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how about lights? seemingly 12/12 begins senescence, but naturally the suns cycles varies.
anywho...remember Spurr stating: 'plants will uptake what they require'...not more, not less. so it seems genetics plays a huge role in determining green to the end.
if there is too much of anything in your 'soil' it may act as a poison or the plant may not be affected at all. it doesn't mean the plant will be full of synthetics (or even organically produced NPK+micros).
I've not amended my medium in over a year (but for occasional mollasses and fish hydrosolate to feed mykes between runs ((cooking?)), with no appreciable difference in quality or quantity.
trust me your weeds will grow in the worst soils.
iknow, I know...we want them to be better than just that...but growing inside a bucket under incandescents it is difficult to call organic even using bioavailable nutrients.
anywho...remember Spurr stating: 'plants will uptake what they require'...not more, not less. so it seems genetics plays a huge role in determining green to the end.
if there is too much of anything in your 'soil' it may act as a poison or the plant may not be affected at all. it doesn't mean the plant will be full of synthetics (or even organically produced NPK+micros).
I've not amended my medium in over a year (but for occasional mollasses and fish hydrosolate to feed mykes between runs ((cooking?)), with no appreciable difference in quality or quantity.
trust me your weeds will grow in the worst soils.
iknow, I know...we want them to be better than just that...but growing inside a bucket under incandescents it is difficult to call organic even using bioavailable nutrients.
From my experience this is correct and even applicable to some individual plants. I've had some outdoor grown plants of the same genetic make up, growing side by side where out of 10 or 20, one would finish with more green leaves. No explanation.
hmmm, personally i like to tip out my pots and re-amend. I dont rely on myco and i feel that the benefits of increased aeration and decreased compaction that comes from tilling can outweigh the benefits of no-till. if i used bigger pots or beds i may do it differently.
im not saying that other methods dont work, really there are many ways to grow great organic weed im sure. All i'm telling you is what has consistently worked very well for me in my little set-up... even if its what others will advise against. My galleries are there for all to see.
im often envious of the space and equipment other people have, but hardly ever do i look at someone else's plants and think that they look more healthy and happy than my own.
VG
im not saying that other methods dont work, really there are many ways to grow great organic weed im sure. All i'm telling you is what has consistently worked very well for me in my little set-up... even if its what others will advise against. My galleries are there for all to see.
im often envious of the space and equipment other people have, but hardly ever do i look at someone else's plants and think that they look more healthy and happy than my own.
VG
surfguitar
Member
How are you increasing aeration and decreasing compaction by tilling and breaking up
All the networks or bacteria and fungi that keep the soil loose and aerated? Our mixes are already so aerated and light compared to
Outdoor soils, I don't even get why this is a concern?
All the networks or bacteria and fungi that keep the soil loose and aerated? Our mixes are already so aerated and light compared to
Outdoor soils, I don't even get why this is a concern?
I have been recycling soil for years but i always remixed and fed them in their water or amended and various hybrids of the two in between and I have grown some insanely nice plants in the course of this time (and some fucking ugly ones too lessons learned)
I have been working towards a no till model (living soil ftw) and half my stuff is no till and the other is only not no till because i went up in container size. Next run the bigger containers will not be tilled but I may move the rest of the garden to larger containers.
I prefer to top dress because I do not have the commodity of time to care for a garden
from what I am experiencing it is a matter of what and when you top dress if you are looking for like results from teas.
dont get me wrong teas, ferments and all those tools are excellent, but I am trying to get to a point where with proper planning they simply aren't needed
I was up in the air about the no till aspect until a respected grower friend was using no till and said he sees a visible difference in resin production. Could the information held within the existing myco network induce sars faster in subsequent rhizosphere interactions if undisturbed?
it makes sense that it could so I am doing no till I wanted to try it because it is a very attractive method of organic gardening more planning understanding less work better results
I have been working towards a no till model (living soil ftw) and half my stuff is no till and the other is only not no till because i went up in container size. Next run the bigger containers will not be tilled but I may move the rest of the garden to larger containers.
I prefer to top dress because I do not have the commodity of time to care for a garden
from what I am experiencing it is a matter of what and when you top dress if you are looking for like results from teas.
dont get me wrong teas, ferments and all those tools are excellent, but I am trying to get to a point where with proper planning they simply aren't needed
I was up in the air about the no till aspect until a respected grower friend was using no till and said he sees a visible difference in resin production. Could the information held within the existing myco network induce sars faster in subsequent rhizosphere interactions if undisturbed?
it makes sense that it could so I am doing no till
I wanted to try it because it is a very attractive method of organic gardening more planning understanding less work better results
B
Baked Alaskan
I use a soil mix of pro-mix and a smaller amount of topsoil. I mix in homemade compost and a bit of ewc (would use more ewc if I had them) into the top few inches. Then I dig two trenches on either side of the 14 gallon tote and put a 1/4 cup of,happy frog 5-5-5 and high p guano, and cover the trenches.
This allows the feeder roots to go and feed on what they need from the trenches. My plants go yellow near the end of flower even though there is still fertilizer in the trenches. When I "re-use" my soil I dig out the trench and there is still fertilizer there.
My grow room stays the same as far as light intensity, temperature, humidity, etc. This makes me think that the plants know when its time to finish and die.
I grow in an earthbox style container that I modified for more control; patent pending.
This allows the feeder roots to go and feed on what they need from the trenches. My plants go yellow near the end of flower even though there is still fertilizer in the trenches. When I "re-use" my soil I dig out the trench and there is still fertilizer there.
My grow room stays the same as far as light intensity, temperature, humidity, etc. This makes me think that the plants know when its time to finish and die.
I grow in an earthbox style container that I modified for more control; patent pending.
If I was growing in beds vs containers I might utilize a different approach as well...
Garden mobility and size, permanence of residency, etc. are huge factors to take into consideration when decided what particular methods to employ.
I consider my soil a living soil as it gets recycled - the application of additional amendments isn't really a concern when you have 60 gallons of dirt sitting in a kiddie pool for two months before it is used again...
Two batches of soil...always in rotation. One always composting with a living mulch keeping it biologically active when not in use that simply gets "tilled" in when placed into containers...not to mention the root balls from the previous grow...
I don't use liquid / bottled fertilizers or teas, etc. Everything the plants need is already in the soil. All I have to do is mimic rain.
Ultimately, when I really get to have my way with things and everything is exactly how I REALLY want it...I'd have a large single bed that was no-till as well. 15" deep, 4' wide, 12' long - that's a lot of dirt. As I harvest and removed the base of the previous plant, I'd transplant the next round into the holes, fill with a bit of fresh compost...and still, let water do the rest, without messing around with teas or foliars, etc...
I think we agree - and if not, I'm missing something in your post.
dank.Frank
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