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War breaks out within the marijuana legalization movement

FreedomFGHTR

Active member
Veteran
The number one thing Lee's initiative does is permit possession, cultivation and sale of cannabis by Californians.
The number one thing it does is encourage counties to pass dracionian local laws against pot. There really aren't that many local governments that are going to encourage people to grow and sell. Plus the permitting process will be set up to be rigourous because the counties that have been sending us to prison will set up their own. If you have ever been in trouble you can kiss your right to compete in the market place goodbye. The first law of capitalism is the right to compete. Strict and limited permitting processes only further to enslave the plant.
They are taking your kids from you right now my friend. This is, by any stretch, an improvement over existing laws.
You are wrong. You will get taken away from your kids if you are growing pot in California and are too lazy to see a doctor once a year. Would it be any different if you exceed the canopy or ounce limit? I doubt it. The lesson is, pay $150 and see a doctor once a year if you grow. They never took me from my parents who were pot smokers for "medical" need. My parents weren't rolemodel parents either.

It enables the Legislature to amend the Act by increasing the limits one can possess (but not to reduce them) and to provide for commercial production of cannabis in further legislation and regulations.

It sets the stage my friend. It sets the stage brilliantly.
The voters and legislature have already done this under the "cruel hoax" that is known as prop 215. The stage was set years ago, we are in the final act.

Ask yourself the following question:

Are you better off under existing legislation where:

You can go to jail for cultivation of a single plant, be charged and fined with possession, and be sent to prison for sharing a joint with a friend (potentially under the three strikes law, for decades)?
Anyone who is growing pot just needs to goto a doctor. This is California. Possession of an ounce or less is a $100 ticket, do a California Roll at stop sign some time. The fine for not stopping is higher. If you are a patient then really its no big deal unless you are selling w/o knowing the current legal ropes and documentation (permits if you will) necessary to do so legally.

I have had cops see my garden and not do a damn thing. Infact there was a story our local news last week about the samething happening to someone else.

Under the The Regulate, Control and Tax Cannabis Act of 2010, be entitled to cultivate a 5x5 plot of land on any parcel or residence,
Why should we basically be limited to 1 plant outside? So if you grow 2 plants and the canopy is exceeded? Punishment fines, blah blah blah. I should be able to fill my whole backyard and my house with as many plants as I can fit if I want. This is a beneficial plant, why limits at all? If you know about what we allready have the voters passed 215 under the assumption cannabis could be grown in unlimited quantites anywhere, even next to schools. I think the status quo is better.

to possess an ounce of cannabis,
To be automatically fined $50 per ounce of cannabis is more accurate. Currently IF you get caught with weed it's a $100 ticket in California.
to be able to legally share it with others if you do not charge a fee for doing so,
Already do that now. Last week I smoked a joint in front of city hall in Sacramento and the head of code enforcement congratulated me on doing a good job speaking and presenting my proposed ordinance for the local implementation of 215.

and to purchase it if over the age of 21 from a licensed establishment?
Prop 215 stated no age. Why do we need to set an age limit. People can legally die for the state (California National Guard) at the age of 17 but they can't smoke a joint? Fuck that. I know that weed saved my life when I was 18. I really might have jumped off the bridge if not for a mary jane angel sent from jah to introduce me personally to weed. I respected it as other peeps medicine up to that point.

Which would you prefer to live under? A or B?
I prefer to live free and happy under 215. Don't reform our marijuana laws and send the DEA in brute force. I like the idea of them in Afghanistan and looking for Micheal Jacksons killer, big pharma!

Never mind the fact that it also establishes normalization of marijuana laws and a legislative precedent that you can further build upon in later years when people get used to it? It is clearly drafted as a launch pad, not as a final destination.
You gotta be kidding me right? How many dispensaries and delivery services are there now here? How many people are already growing here now legally with 215. All it will do is piss off the feds, and make it so less people can grow legally and create a small monopoly dominated industry.

And you are against the language of this initiative? WOW. Not only that, but against it with a clarion "call to arms" mentality? WOW.
When our freedoms and liberty are at stake we have no choice but to bring out the guns.

I said it before, I'll say it again: Real legislation is what happens while idealists and crusaders wait for moments that never come.

Except we already have had real legalization. I am living proof. What you guys are doing is detroying the progress that has been made and giving up in the fight against the real enemy, the prohibitionist by handing them buckets of money. It's no different then fining us when we get busted, except that its automatic and happens all thetime.

YOU TAXATION PEOPLE ARE TRAITORS!
:yeahthats
 

FreedomFGHTR

Active member
Veteran
:YaRight:

(For the obvious reason that Medical Marijuana laws applies only to patients, whereas this applies to everybody.)
All use is medical. If you have a California Id and a pulse you can get a doctors reccomendation to smoke pot. It was written that way on purpose.

Ahh... now we finally get to it. You run a dispensary delivery service in Sacto, right?
Your point is? Atleast I encourage open markets and free enterprise. Before this I worked on a high profile farm that eventually got busted by the feds, I also worked for a pot club in SF before most people even knew about medical pot in California. I am a patient first.

Without putting too fine a point on it, in one breath Prop 215 is a "cruel hoax", in your next breath, Prop 215 provides only patients with cultivation permits but that's somehow better than providing a right to grow for everyone else -- which is something they don't have now.
The Richard Lee Treason will allow even less people to grow. Counties will have inconsitent possesion LAWS, so you drive from Oakland where you could theoretically have 3lbs and then hit CoCo county where they only allow an ounce. Anyone can be a legal patient. I my diagnoses is Cannabis Dependency. If you can get it for that you can get it for anything including hangnails, headaches, and theraputic stress relief.


But then we get to the final part about delivery services. And that's where the inconsistencies crystallize all at once.

Know what I think? I think you are concerned your marijuana delivery service will be threatened here; you are concerned that you will make less money if this passes.
Yes I am afraid of that. I won't lie. Atleast I won't pretend to not want to create a monopoly unlike Richard Lee. It will be threaten by being legislated out of business simply because of a mistake I made a decade ago.

The main reason why I am against this is because my friend Dennis Peron is against it.

It's okay to vote with your pocketbook. But it's not okay to do so under the guise of moral outrage and a suggestion that the current laws are better than this.
It's not a guise it is the truth that the current laws are better. And for moral reasons including putting people like me out of business. Did you have the courage to ask the Federal government for an EIN for a weed company? I am not against taxation. I am against NEW taxation especially in the form of a Cannabis specific excise tax.

You are either incapable of rationally assesing the benefits of the proposed law vs the current one for Californians generally, or you are quite able to understand and rationally assess them, but you prefer to reach a conclusion which cannot be supported by the facts.

Hrmm should I take the word from a keyboard commando who's fatigues are probably tighty whites? Or the man who actually has done something? Funny that man who actualy did something also agree's with me.


So why can't you understand it? Hmmm.
Actually I do understand it. Better than most. Infact I have been one of the very first activist to raise the red flag on taxes. So as to support the community first I suggested changes to make the initiative right.

Time to go back to the first post I think for a little reminder:

"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it."

--Upton Sinclair

Quite so.

Upton Sinclair the author of the jungle was an alarmist socialist. It comes as no surprise to me that he would make such a statement. However nothing could be further than the truth. Those who understand the war in Afghanistan are the one's making money off it. Infact they are the only one's who do.
 

fatigues

Active member
Veteran
fatigues said (before he deleted it in a vain attempt to not get unduly personal):

Know what I think? I think you are concerned your marijuana delivery service will be threatened here; you are concerned that you will make less money if this passes.
Responds:

Yes I am afraid of that. I won't lie. Atleast I won't pretend to not want to create a monopoly unlike Richard Lee. It will be threaten by being legislated out of business simply because of a mistake I made a decade ago.

Got to respect a man who stands up and doesn't flinch from a well aimed punch.

I respect your right to disagree. Peace.
 

Zealious

Member
This is bad. I thought we are all on the same side.

There is going to be sin taxes. its just a fact. Marijuana is going to fall in the same foot steps as alcohol. Thats all well and good because its either now or never. This IS the only time we can get this legalization passed.

We dont need to divide the lines because we need jack, we need dennis. we need everyone and we BETTER make sure this shit doesn't turn into Marlboro fucking texaco incorporated.

Organic all the way.
 

Zealious

Member
ahh You know what. We should strive for the wine bussiness model... that is what is called for. It will naturaly be comercialized but, tastes and quality and small time farmers making fine vintages all around the world will stir good competition and keep the playing grounds level.. Sure malboro can pump out huge amounts but will it be any good.. think about it.. there are way tooo many strains out there for that model to work. how many commercial strains of corn are there? or apples? DO you see what im getting at here.. ?

I honestly dont see huge commercialized malboro type shit being a threat.. I think people will have fine tastes like with wine and business will be great for everyone.
 

Zealious

Member
And if there has to be a tax ... then the people should get the right to chose how the tax money will be used.

I demand health care and better education.. Stop bailing out huge corporational criminals.

That should please eveyone right.. yea tax it... but we get a say in what the taxes get used for.. that way it will go back to us and our chilldren.. lets face it.. we got raped. its almost impossible to wrap your head around the astronimical sum of money the goverment just threw away trying to "rescue" gm and our god for saken corporate capitalism . We are fucked. our children are fucked. we will be paying for these mistakes for a long time..

we better fucking act. and act fast.

They got social security. they got descen education... what do we get and future generations.. DEBT and a fucked up job market.

I emplore each and evey one of you to see that if we are going to be paying taxes...

we damn well get something out of it.
 
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maxxim

Member
While it is true that 25 square feet is not enough for some people, the initiative also allows local governments to expand the 25 sq ft. rule (local governments can also expand the possession limits).


Which corporate controlled politicians are going to block Agribiz from opening up a factory and sending him thousands of dollars in campaign contribs?
We saw this with the credit card companies moving their HQ`s to the states that allowed them to rip us off.

Farmers are no longer farmers they are just factory workers now trying to squeeze out a little more product for less price so we can have 99 cent double cheeseburgers. Farmers now get their livestock from a catalog and everything has been shot up with drugs to keep the animals alive while we fatten them up with bad food of their own. To say we eat sick animals would be an understatement. Big corporations gave the big fuckover to farmers, do you think they wouldn`t do the same to us?

Jack how many plants is enough? Where do we balance it from being to small for everyone to benefit to having to many plants resulting in corporations taking it over?

I understand the free for everyone to grow and smoke and let the chips fall and the best growers will win out in the free market and my strain is better then yours ect ect... I just ask why not use this opportunity to address and correct some other problems we are hit by at the same time. Make MJ work for the people and benefit the people not work for the people and benefit the CEO.
 
O

ocean99

Fuck legislation, uphold the status quo, no taxes for brave bootleggers.
 

Hash Zeppelin

Ski Bum Rodeo Clown
Premium user
ICMag Donor
Veteran
The thing is, if legalization occurs in any way the ammount of growers will sky rocket even more. taxing of small home growers will not be able to be enforced.
 

maxxim

Member
I honestly dont see huge commercialized malboro type shit being a threat.. I think people will have fine tastes like with wine and business will be great for everyone.

Are you joking???
Is everyone out of their minds?
Americans don`t make "ANYTHING" anymore.... We who buy the cheapest lowest quality products are going to have "fine taste". Mc Donalds billions served shitty frozen burgers, fake ass Mc Ribs, and WTF ever part of a chicken is a nugget are going to buy gourmet weed? And somehow your going to even be able to compete with a multi-million dollar business with labs and scientists?

And if there has to be a tax ... then the people should get the right to chose how the tax money will be used.

I demand health care and better education.. Stop bailing out huge corporational criminals.

You should be telling your representatives that right now. In Lee`s bill does it say where the money goes? Would be sad to see it used to build more prisons. At least set aside 10-20% for local needs.
 

anthonytaurus

New member
Sorry folks but this all sounds like a pile of bullshit meant to ferment some made up war within the general marijuana community.

What difference does it really make if marijuana is legal or legal, regulated and taxed?

The point we all want is for marijuana to be legal. The only people who have to worry about regulation and taxation are commercial growers. People who grow for personal use simply don't have to say shit about what they have grown. I think we've all got that part (Rule #1) down by now!

Sorry folks, I am for taxation and regulation of the marijuana industry. If the laws bothered me that much, I wouldn't be growing right now. That goes for all of us who grow. What I mean by saying that is taxation and regulation are not something I have to worry about in my own home as a personal grower. Beer is legal, regulated and taxed. If I brew my own beer in the comfort of my home, drink it and share with friends, who's going to regulate and tax me?? Gotta catch me to tax me. That's how we all operate already. That's the American way. Ask UBS in Switzerland.

Beyond those obvious realities, regulation and taxation is the strategy du jour. It's a means to an end - legalization. The point is to introduce control to people who need to feel in control and sweeten the pot with a little money on top of it. That's the path to legalization. There is no better strategy to date whether we, you, or they like it.

I don't see the point in this made-up war within the marijuana community. I have no beef with commercial growers or any efforts trying to get it legalized for greedy or commercial purposes. The main goal here is legalization and that's where we need to look. When I can walk the street without being harassed for marijuana, I'll be happy.

Honestly, this all seems political in nature. It's like a tea party movement WITHIN the marijuana community screaming no taxation and no regulation... rabble rabble rabble. I have to wonder what exactly are your political affiliations.

Well, sorry again but I LOVE regulation. I remember my history classes and I know why quality control and regulation are necessary. If you don't understand, ask the children who died from antifreeze in their similac. The US used to be like China a century ago. Do we have to be reminded? Well, I'd hate for a potential marijuana industry to be unregulated. It's that way now and people are putting some fucked up shit on the buds they sell.

And, I can appreciate taxation because that paid for the roads we drive on and a lot of other shit we tend to take for granted or claim we don't like until we're thanking folks for it later.

Nah.. I call bullshit on this whole "war within" idea. This is not a war within. This is a political issue that really has nothing to do with the marijuana movement. At best, the only thing happening here is that some people have chosen to try to divert funds away from organizations that have been pushing the legalization agenda for a long time. That's not something I can support.

Legalize, regulate, tax! Support NORML, MPP, etc. Anything else is just a derailment from the current path which I believe WILL work in the long run.
 

maxxim

Member
The thing is, if legalization occurs in any way the ammount of growers will sky rocket even more. taxing of small home growers will not be able to be enforced.

Sure we can....

Growers will have to buy a license for their crops.
One license per household...
Commercial producer growing year round will be say $250.00-500.00 yearly
Personal grower will be $10-50 yearly

Personal growers are done from here out and can grow and smoke whatever they grow.

Commercial growers are only allowed to sell to dispensaries and the dispensaries must log the license, amount, and payments for the product they take in and they will collect and pay the taxes on the MJ. This way only those who intend to make money off of selling their homegrown MJ will end up being affected by the taxes.

The market will balance out who will pay the taxes. Most likely it would be divided between the grower in the form of lower price for the product, the dispensary would would have to adjust prices to stay competitive, and the end smoker would be passed part of the tax as higher product costs.

If you let a corporation in there they will cut out the growers and replace them with a few commercial farmers, maybe eliminate the dispensaries all together because Walmart and 7-11 will want to sell the shit to make a buck. And we will be left with our weed so cheap and good no one will complain that all the money is going in the pocket of some CEO`s, we`ll just continue to work hard making them rich.
 

anthonytaurus

New member
The thing is, if legalization occurs in any way the ammount of growers will sky rocket even more. taxing of small home growers will not be able to be enforced.
Yes and no!

If marijuana is legalized, I think there will be fierce competition early on due to the influx of growers. But, all of that will dry up in the long run when big time farmers get involved. That's just the dust gettin stirred up. It will settle sooner than we think.

Also don't forget the import business. You can get pounds of marijuana from places around the world for next to nothing. If marijuana were to be legalized, as a business man although I am NOT a commercial grower, I wouldn't even waste my time growing. I'd put all these SOBs out of business with one flight to Africa or even Aghanistan, flood the market with quality African landraces or hash from the Middle East.

Don't worry about little old me. The first people to worry about is the Altria group. They've got the funds, the distribution, etc etc etc. They can put all commercial growers out of business.

And I am with Zealious.
We should strive for the wine bussiness model... that is what is called for.
The best commercial growers in the US will have to hope for is a wine business model. Even then, I already see competition from breeders we get our seeds from - Greenhouse, Soma, Rezdog, etc etc etc.

Personally, I'll keep growing. It's a good hobby and I already have my set up! So, legalization doesn't bother me much either.
 

FreedomFGHTR

Active member
Veteran
Sure we can....

Growers will have to buy a license for their crops.
One license per household...
Commercial producer growing year round will be say $250.00-500.00 yearly
Personal grower will be $10-50 yearly

Personal growers are done from here out and can grow and smoke whatever they grow.

So we can have the plant police going from house to house checking to make sure you aren't growing to much marijuana. Sounds like a brilliant idea... So how are we going to pay for the plant counters? The pot tax? Wow another brilliant idea. And when you don't have your permit they do what? Fine you in the same amount the felonies currently carry? Sounds great! And if you don't pay the felony level fine you go where? Prison! Wow PrisoneyLand! I love that place! The more you guys talk about it the better and better this bendict arnold esque plan sounds!

/sarcasm
 

Stay Puft

Member
I have a question:
Under current Federal law, If an entity (Like a State,County or Municipal government) collects money (taxes) on a Federally banned substance. [Schedule 1 ]
Wouldn't that entity be guilty of "Racketeering" under current federal laws?
Regards,
Puft
 

Babbabud

Bodhisattva of the Earth
ICMag Donor
Veteran
25sq ft is not nearly enough. Great post FF way to prove your point dude :)
 

maxxim

Member
So we can have the plant police going from house to house checking to make sure you aren't growing to much marijuana. Sounds like a brilliant idea...
So your telling me that right now the city dosen`t go around looking at peoples houses and property? I have 10 properties and right now I receive a threat letter if I lapse a week in cutting my lawn. If there is something wrong with a car in a parking lot it will get tagged and I receive a letter stating to take care of it or pay a fine.
You may not like it but its a fact.

So how are we going to pay for the plant counters? The pot tax? Wow another brilliant idea.
I dunno I get my car inspected every year and my apartments are inspected. My business can be inspected at any second of any day and shut down on the spot by the inspector but I gladly trade that for the opportunity to make a boat load of money.

And when you don't have your permit they do what? Fine you in the same amount the felonies currently carry?
They don`t buy your weed and you are not allowed to sell it. Fines would be monetary and forfeiture in extreme cases like smuggling.
Just because its legalized are you going to do anything to stop it from being sold at schools? Are you going to make the punishment have teeth to ensure that children are not being exploited by this?

Sounds great! And if you don't pay the felony level fine you go where? Prison! Wow PrisoneyLand! I love that place! The more you guys talk about it the better and better this bendict arnold esque plan sounds!
Don`t pay your taxes and let me know where you end up?
Yes if you cheat we should first start by hitting you in the wallet and if you have blatant disregard for the law then we should be able to take your property. You can still be fully legal and grow and sell just follow the directions.


Easy to criticize but whats your plan to address the issue?
 

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