Vintage Mexican, Seed germination and Micro propagation techniques.

[Mystic Funk]

Welcome back - and thanks for the response!

I understand the shortcomings as you point them out; in my meager defense, I had no idea at the time that I’d have them for so long...I did at least squeeze the air out of them when I zipped them up, and rolled them in...y’know, at this point, they either *will* pop or they won’t, and if they won’t - oh well.

At the moment, the best I can probably do is to move them into paper coin envelopes, label / seal / tape / fold and seal them in a few amber bottles with some fresh popcorn kernels (little secret from my computer years: rice is a lousy moisture-absorber, popcorn is *much* more effective)...because I HAVE silica gel, but...since the last move, I’d have to go search for them, and that would rouse the house....

UPDATE - I must just live right: 60 poured seeds weigh in @ 0.999g (yeah, me either...)

But I’m all excited again, just thinking about it: as I have easily 1000+ that are differentiated only by their markings, I think I’ll weigh out a gram or so tonight, and keep that out for purely experimental purposes (you know, “SCIENCE!!”)....

I’ll go down to the bait shop for some castings in the morning, and throw a few in there and see what happens...you had some real good results from that, I recall.

This thread has been a huge inspiration to me: read it thru several times, took a bunch of hints, went chasing them, studied (studying) a lot. You’re a star in my book!

How are your rescued rangers doing? I hope you’ll bring the thread up to date on how your seed resurrection is working out!

That's great you have some old seeds of your own and I didn't know that about the popcorn. I'll have to give that a try once I run out of silica. Just so everyone knows. If you come across some silica setting around or it's prepackaged in those breathable bags it can be reused even if it's full of moisture. All you need to do is bake it in the oven at 200f for one hour then ether use it right away or place it in a jar to seal out humidity for later use. This can be done many times without harming the silica.



I like to buy the color indicating type that turns from Orange to green once it full of moisture. This way I know when it needs to be re-baked. I use it for many things not just seeds. It works great for drying pollen so it can stay fresh for years of use.





If you plan on getting worms from the bait shop be sure to buy the little "red trout worms". Nightcrawers aren't the best worms to use for composting. Just because nightcrawers are big doesn't mean they will make the most castings. In fact they make only one hole in the soil and rarely come to the surface to feed unlike the red top dewelling composting worms. These guys are small but have big appatites and will reproduce very quickly.




Anyway, I plan on getting back into the V-Mex germination methods soon! If you guys have any new methods or want me to revisit an old one please let me know and I'll give it a shot. One of the ones I'd like to try again is the hydrogen peroxide method. I'm going to get some 30% and make my own dilutions I'm seeing a lot of research that says it has some great properties. I believe troutman and one other took the time to post some links so I'll start there.


Thanks to everyone here for all the contributions to this thread and let's keep it going!!!




Peace
Mystic

 

[White Beard]

That's great you have some old seeds of your own and I didn't know that about the popcorn. I'll have to give that a try once I run out of silica. Just so everyone knows. If you come across some silica setting around or it's prepackaged in those breathable bags it can be reused even if it's full of moisture. All you need to do is bake it in the oven at 200f for one hour then ether use it right away or place it in a jar to seal out humidity for later use. This can be done many times without harming the silica.



I like to buy the color indicating type that turns from Orange to green once it full of moisture. This way I know when it needs to be re-baked. I use it for many things not just seeds. It works great for drying pollen so it can stay fresh for years of use.

I’ve been collecting silica packets for awhile myself, even bought some (as well as some LARGE packets to store with things like ammo)... just, like I say, in the mess following the move, they could be anywhere. Yes, damned useful things

If you plan on getting worms from the bait shop be sure to buy the little "red trout worms". Nightcrawers aren't the best worms to use for composting. Just because nightcrawers are big doesn't mean they will make the most castings. In fact they make only one hole in the soil and rarely come to the surface to feed unlike the red top dewelling composting worms. These guys are small but have big appatites and will reproduce very quickly.

okay, now...I thought I had the worm thing sorted, but your remarks prompt me to make sure I’m clear about the difference between worms. The worms I’m talking about are called red wigglers here, they’re sold for bait, and they’re real active. My compost learnings tell me they make the best castings. Don’t know what night crawlers are, the two worms I know of in this context are the wigglers and the common earthworm, which is longer, fatter, floppy, a sort of brown-grey instead of red, and they’re slow compared to the wigglers; and they come up out of the ground when it rains...bait shops don’t sell them around because they’re not good for bait. (Bait shop was actually closed today, they went fishing, or I’d take a pic and post it)

I tried to get pictures of the two to compare, but that really didn’t help...OTOH Amazon sells red wigglers as composters

For germination purposes I only want a cup or two of castings from them

Anyway, I plan on getting back into the V-Mex germination methods soon! If you guys have any new methods or want me to revisit an old one please let me know and I'll give it a shot. One of the ones I'd like to try again is the hydrogen peroxide method. I'm going to get some 30% and make my own dilutions I'm seeing a lot of research that says it has some great properties. I believe troutman and one other took the time to post some links so I'll start there.

Thanks to everyone here for all the contributions to this thread and let's keep it going!!!

Peace
Mystic

Frostqueen has a couple of links at the top of page 30 I found real interesting. For myself, I heard good words about Willard Water in an episode of GrowFromTheHeart podcast re: germination...

 

[Mystic Funk]

@white beard.
Yes. Red wigglers are the ones you want. Nightcrawers are the ones that come out from deep in the soil at night or when it rains. They're big and fat. They work good if you have a deep worm bin and will mostly work the bottom half while the red worms do most of the work up top.




Peace
Mystic

 

[White Beard]

Thank you, sir, all I needed...

I’ve been sketching out my plan for testing the germination on these seeds, and the first thing is since I work on the weekend, I’m not going to start until Monday, when I can be undistracted.

So here’s my plan (please comment):

I’ve pulled out 60 seeds, all stored the same, all sizes and markings.
Based on frostqueen’s link about seed priming, I plan to prime one batch of seeds by soaking them in a solution of 3% H2O2 (1ml) and distilled water (4mi) - 5 for 30min, 5 for 120min.

The seeds will be pulled and dried for at least 6 hours, then planted in fresh worm castings in Dixie cups (bathroom size) and set in a warm, lit spot to wait.

I’ll do the same with another ten seeds, but after priming (iirc the priming process involves soaking *and* drying), they will be soaked for 6 hours in 1ml liquid seaweed and 5ml distilled water, then straight into the cups.

The third batch of 10 will follow suit, but the post-priming solution will have a few drops of Willard water added in place of the seaweed.

The 4th round will post-prime in distilled water, Willard water, and seaweed.

Survivors (if any) will be let to grow until they get to a transplanting size (if any), at which the cups will be peeled away and the root balls examined.

Photos will be taken at all stages.

Tear it apart, y’all - help me improve the experiment!

Depending on the results, the remainder will either be returned to the stash or tossed.

 

[Mystic Funk]

Thank you, sir, all I needed...

I’ve been sketching out my plan for testing the germination on these seeds, and the first thing is since I work on the weekend, I’m not going to start until Monday, when I can be undistracted.

So here’s my plan (please comment):

I’ve pulled out 60 seeds, all stored the same, all sizes and markings.
Based on frostqueen’s link about seed priming, I plan to prime one batch of seeds by soaking them in a solution of 3% H2O2 (1ml) and distilled water (4mi) - 5 for 30min, 5 for 120min.

The seeds will be pulled and dried for at least 6 hours, then planted in fresh worm castings in Dixie cups (bathroom size) and set in a warm, lit spot to wait.

I’ll do the same with another ten seeds, but after priming (iirc the priming process involves soaking *and* drying), they will be soaked for 6 hours in 1ml liquid seaweed and 5ml distilled water, then straight into the cups.

The third batch of 10 will follow suit, but the post-priming solution will have a few drops of Willard water added in place of the seaweed.

The 4th round will post-prime in distilled water, Willard water, and seaweed.

Survivors (if any) will be let to grow until they get to a transplanting size (if any), at which the cups will be peeled away and the root balls examined.

Photos will be taken at all stages.

Tear it apart, y’all - help me improve the experiment!

Depending on the results, the remainder will either be returned to the stash or tossed.

Very cool man!
Hopefully these methods work for you and please let us know how things go.




Peace
Mystic

 

[SweetIndica2]

I was planning on making a worm bin with just two bins from this video i saw on youtube. They are both 17 gallon rubbermaid containers. Would this still work even though i know my EWC/Compost production will be lower? I have old (15+) year old seeds i want to germinate.

How would i build it exactly if i am just using two rubbermaid containers? I can probably find something to hold their weight that is smaller to put under them like you said but from there what do i do drilling wise, pvc wise and drainage nozzle wise?

Thanks!

 

[OldCoolSativa]

I'm arriving really late to this, but Trout, this is probably the most significant paper I've read in years. It's pretty heavy reading, but the gist of it is that hydrogen peroxide does a hell of a lot more than just sterilize and kill off the nasties we face. It enhances signalling in the seed and creates a 'seed priming' situation that continues afterward in the seedling via 'priming memory'.

I am currently working with seeds from my early days of growing in the late '90s. I will be doing more research to come up with a seed priming technique that in part uses hydrogen peroxide. This paper really is a game changer as far as understanding the mechanisms involved.

Different seeds respond in different ways. I have already worked with a few things that have shown limited success: GA3 works but causes elongation. Finding the sweet spot (under 200ppm in my studies) can be a bit of a pain. After trying other methods this would be a last resort IMO. There are better ways to do it.

Fulvic acid and a single drop or two of Superthrive per gallon can be effective as a pre-soak. I also use an enzymatic sterilizer called Z7. How much fulvic acid can be difficult to translate with all of the different products out there; I'd recommend 10ml of Ful Power per gallon, but must admit that I've never done side-by-side comparisons to be sure that amount is best. (Note: humic acid will not penetrate cell walls the way fulvic acid does, so fulvic is preferred.)

Regarding the worm bin technique. This is well known in the agricultural industry as 'bio-priming'. The microbial activity does more than just defend your seed against nasties; it also signals the seed to activate its metabolism and resume cellular respiration, among many other things. The organisms found in worm bins are indeed also found in bagged earthworm castings, though at lower levels.

Earthworm castings are used in aerated compost teas, and with the right conditions the microherd in teas can easily meet or exceed what is found in worm beds. So those of you who don't want to hassle with worm bins should check out ACT as a great alternative to bins. Just pre-soak the seeds in your ACT.

Beyond that, I would think that truly rare seeds that are unlikely to ever germ should be tissue cultured. I will be diving down that rabbit hole this fall, hopefully, and setting up a small lab. Long-term preservation of strains and hybrids is something I really want to explore.

Bolding mine. I couldn't agree more. I'll keep trying small batches of the old hippie seed I have, using different techniques, but I'm of the opinion that the longer I sit on some of these old seeds then eventually tissue culture germination technology will improve and become more accessible to regular folk.

 

[OldCoolSativa]

This gets into some of the physiological changes that seed priming can initiate. Long-term defenses against salt are mentioned in many studies.

In this case it's folic acid and hydrogen peroxide. Whether or not this would translate to better germ rates for old seeds is unclear. At least it gives us a vague idea how much peroxide we should be using: 15 mm/liter. (That's micromoles. No idea how to convert that to ppm; any chemists here?)

MORPHO- PHYSIOLOGICAL CHANGES OF HEMPSEED (CANNABIS SATIVA L.) TRAITS AS AFFECTED BY SEED PRIMING WITH FOLIC ACID AND HYDROGEN PEROXIDE

And here is some more great information about seed germination.

Do you have access to a full copy of this paper? I believe 15 mm/l refers to millimoles per liter (mM/l) and not micromoles per liter (uM/l or μM/l). So 15mM of H2O2 is 0.015 mol, which we multiply by the molar mass of H2O2 (34 g/mol) to get 0.51 g (510 mg) H2O2 per liter of H2O. The equivalent concentration of 15 mM/l H2O2 is therefore 510 mg/l. On a mass percent basis, that's a 0.05% H2O2 solution, which can be made by diluting drug-store 3% H2O2 by 60X.

 

[herbgreen]

You may want to try woodshed seed cracker from instagram or some other physical cracking method

All the cleaning protocol you can find

Also consider freezing for a time or refrigerate to simulate coming out of winter

Then into a live worm bin, soil, paper towels or whatever

You may have to resort to tissue culture or send them out to a lab you trust to do it for you

If you have enough seeds you may be able to find something that works.....

 

[OldCoolSativa]

OK, doing the math, I came up with a simple recipe to give me 15 mM/l H2O2 and 5 mM/l fulvic acid, as per the above article that frostqueen posted:

• Dilute 3% drug store H2O2 solution 60X in distilled water
• Dilute Ful-Power fulvic acid solution 40X in distilled water

The reason I'd like to see the full article is because I want to know what difference, if any, longer soak times do to germination rates. They used 24 hr in fulvic acid and 6 hr in H2O2. Sequentially? I don't think that's long enough to properly soak dry, hardened old cannabis seeds.

I just popped a bunch of ~20 2004 punto rojo and ~15 old hippie stash seeds that are >40-year-old. Now that I'm a worm rancher I'm using fresh worm castings. I was in a hurry and didn't scarify or pre-soak these seeds, which I now regret. We'll see what happens. I also have another small batch of old seeds I'll try soon.

 

[OldCoolSativa]

Oops..I misread the article. They used folic acid, not fulvic acid. There's some folic acid in Superthrive but I'll probably buy some liquid folic acid solution for the next round. Based on my reading it seems that H2O2 is more important in seed priming anyway.

So here's the germination technique I'm using this round:

• Lightly sand seed seams and sides with 400-grit sandpaper.
• Place scarified seeds in aloe vera cutting for 48 hours.
• Prepare solution of 100 ml distilled water, 1 ml Ful-Power fulvic acid, 1 drop superthrive and aloe juice, mix in blender, and bubble in germination bomb for 24 hr.
• Prepare solution of 100 ml distilled water 1.7 ml 3% H2O2 and soak seeds in the H2O2 solution for 6 hours. I will NOT use the bubbler / germination bomb for this step because sparging the solution will strip the O2 from the H2O2.
• Remove from H2O2 solution, towel dry and manually crack the seeds.
• Place primed, cracked seeds in live worm castings.
• Pray.

.

 

[White Beard]

After 3 rounds, I’ve suspended my germination attempts until I can gain more control over my situation. No sprouts out of 30 seeds.

 

[OldCoolSativa]

After 3 rounds, I’ve suspended my germination attempts until I can gain more control over my situation. No sprouts out of 30 seeds.

Bummer. After this current batch of 25 seeds, I'm at the end of my first lot of ~100 seeds. I still have about 600 left. They're all in the freezer. I'll continue to sit on most of those until tissue culture technology advances to the point that it becomes feasible to get these old seeds to embrace the life force.

 

[bestothebest]

That’s pretty crazy OCS

 

[GOT_BUD?]

Regarding the worm bin technique. This is well known in the agricultural industry as 'bio-priming'. The microbial activity does more than just defend your seed against nasties; it also signals the seed to activate its metabolism and resume cellular respiration, among many other things. The organisms found in worm bins are indeed also found in bagged earthworm castings, though at lower levels.

Earthworm castings are used in aerated compost teas, and with the right conditions the microherd in teas can easily meet or exceed what is found in worm beds. So those of you who don't want to hassle with worm bins should check out ACT as a great alternative to bins. Just pre-soak the seeds in your ACT.

Beyond that, I would think that truly rare seeds that are unlikely to ever germ should be tissue cultured. I will be diving down that rabbit hole this fall, hopefully, and setting up a small lab. Long-term preservation of strains and hybrids is something I really want to explore.

Perfect! I just started a tea a couple hours ago and I have old seeds I'm trying to germinate.

I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[GRoot]

Just started on some seeds with a throw together technique. Washed seeds in distilled/h2o2 mix then placed inside aloe Vera leaves for 24hrs. Removed from aloe and into urbnatural soak for 30mins. Beans were then cracked and placed in wet paper towels with a light dilution of tm-7 in it. Seeds were bagged then hung. Some of these seeds are 10+yrs old. A few were already peeking out after 24hrs after removal from aloe leaf. I will check them daily and report back.

 

[Cone Head]

Hey Mystic Funk. Have you got a smoke report for those vintage seeds you popped? I'd love to hear about the tastes and the high.

 

[Mystic Funk]

Hey Mystic Funk. Have you got a smoke report for those vintage seeds you popped? I'd love to hear about the tastes and the high.

Hey Cone Head!
Is there anyone in particular you wanted to hear about? I only smoked about 30 different phenotypes of the V-Mex. Hahaha! I'm just kidding. I know what you're saying. I'll try and sum it up by ones that were most notable.

The flavors and aromas ranged from chocolate, citrus, musty, spicy and incense.... None were skunky, fuely or sour. They were flavors I'd long forgotten about and it was nice to smell and taste them again.
They had many different highs. Mostly head highs that gave me the feeling behind the eyes that I don't offen come across. Only a few modern hybrids have given me that feeling. Some were more spacey and some were more racey but there were a few that were dreamy and I wanted to chill out. Not couch locked but just mellow where I could sit back and think and think without breaking focus.

The flowers definitely get better with age and the highs can become more complex.



Now that you got me talking about the V-Mex. I started some of the F1's or whatever you'd call it? A couple months ago. I'm just waiting to take some cuts and then they're going into flower with my Oaxacan gold line. I'm curious to see what the next generation of V-Mex will look like in flower.

I'll get some pics up of this project soon for you guys.


I haven't done much germination methods lately seeing that I don't have much to go on. I'd like to retest the hydrogen peroxide method seeing that a few people want it revisited.


Thanks for stopping by man!





Peace
Mystic

 

[troutman]

Hey Cone Head!
Is there anyone in particular you wanted to hear about?

How's the Corky pick phenotype?

 

[Mystic Funk]

I kept that one separate in seed form so I can revisit it.

If I remember right it had a spicy\citrus aroma and definitely stood out among the crowd for sativa stature.



That corky fellow sure knew how to pick a plant out at the starting gate...




Peace
Mystic