US growers take note of this Supreme Court ruling!

[BiG H3rB Tr3E]

Oh joy... the just keep chippin' away.

Sad thing is, by the time most americans realize they're being screwed by the pooch, it'll be far too late to do much more than watch our so-called 'liberties' swirling down the commode. Seems our 'rights' just about aren't worth the paper they're written on... but we could always roll up the Constitution and Bill of Rights and SMOKE 'em.

Only in the good 'ol USofA!

Thanks for posting IGT

Well what do you believe we should do about it? There is alot of shit going wrong in the world today, but most of us aren't in a position to make any real changes....

My advice>>> lets start walking around with uncapped hypos in our pockets. that way when you get search,,, PRICK,,, haha;;;;you have AIDS now !!!!!

 

[SrPlantManager]

Hey there, BHT

Well as far as the Constitution was originally written, it provided safegaurds to prevent the government from doing the things they are today. Unfortunately, over the years, our 'Constitution' has been systematically dismantled under the guise of 'protecting Americans', but in reality, they've been preparing things so that Americans can't do anything about it. A revolution in my eyes would be a waste of american lives, as the revolutionaries would be painted in a light of 'terrorists' and as we know, this country has no qualms with killing it's people.

While I may not have the answer to the repairation of such injustices to the Constituion, the only way I see things ever changing is through education and reform, but as long as this is a 'republic for which it stands'(greed) this nation is, well... doomed. All democracies throughout history have shown to be destructive to the country unto which enacted it.

With our govt now quietly moving in the shadows towards the 'North American Union', it's only a small step towards a 'one world government' after that. The Shrub already signed the North American Union agreement with Canada and Mexico.

Politicians are merely puppets for the big banking cartels that actually own this country, and the president, whoever he is, is the main puppet, moving towards THEIR financial interests, not ours. Lobbyists and 'special interest groups' are owned by these interests and influence laws and the overall direction of this country today.

Jefferson would be so proud.

Personally I would have rather lives in the mid-late 1700's, when govt wasn't near as big and pushing this country in it's own direction. It wont be too long now before the US will be a total and complete police state. 10 years, maybe. Well,... maybe a little longer, they have to get the rest of the world powers on board the 'one world govenment' idea first. That's why we try to push our 'democracy' all over the world. I'd be willing to bet those countries that don't comply will be the trigger for a huge world war that will thin out the human species to a point the 'powers that be' can be much more persuasive in getting exactly what they want.

But this is all just a non-toking stoner's rhetoric

 

[NiteTiger]

OMG, I love having Constitutional law discussions with folks who are well versed. I haven't talked about Terry stops for years

How about "police safety" patdowns on sidewalk Terry stops?

Here's the thing though - Terry v Ohio established this exact rule. Police officers have the right to perform a pat-down in temporary detentions, and was extended specifically to include traffic stops. Like I said, nothing new in that.

Even the reasoning behind the decision is the same.

The pat-down is allowed if the police "harbor reasonable suspicion that a person subjected to the frisk is armed, and therefore dangerous to the safety of the police and public," Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg wrote

Nothing new here either. The original Terry opinion states

“Our evaluation of the proper balance that has to be struck in this type of case leads us to conclude that there must be a narrowly drawn authority to permit a reasonable search for weapons for the protection of the police officer, where he has reason to believe that he is dealing with an armed and dangerous individual, regardless of whether he has probable cause to arrest the individual for a crime.”

So, we're still following right in the footsteps of Terry here. And, as I said, the only clear point in this discussion is to broaden the scope of Terry slightly, . The original Terry ruling allowed for a search of the outer clothing for weapons if the officer has reasonable suspicion the person has committed, is in the process of committing, or is about to commit a crime. However, there has to be reasonable suspicion the person is armed, and the Justices were kind enough to clarify that reasonable suspicion must be based on “specific and articulable facts” and that the reasonable standard was to be interpreted as “Would the facts available to the officer at the moment of the seizure or the search warrant a man of reasonable caution in the belief that the action taken was appropriate?”

The only thing done by the new decision is to clarify the language to remove the need for the officer to believe the person was, is, or about to commit a crime. They still have to meet the requirements of reasonableness, and be able to articulate why they felt the person was armed or presented a threat.

Obviously, in this case, the officer was proven correct. After all, the guy did have a gun. The only point of contention in this case was whether the search was legal absent the belief that a crime had, is, or is about to be committed. Like I said, it was merely a clarification, not some great stride in the revocation of the 4th, in my opinion.

As far as a fishing expedition, I disagree completely. Police officers are already allowed to remove people from the car in the interest of both the officer and the persons in a car (more than a few officers and citizens have been killed by collisions during traffic stops), and the removal of people from the car is in no way a prelude to a search. Officers still must have reasonable suspicion that a suspect is armed before conducting a pat down.

So, in summary, after this long ass post, the reasonableness of a search is not waived in this decision. In fact, in the ruling Justice Ginsburg specifically states “To justify a patdown of the driver or a passenger during a traffic stop… the police must harbor reasonable suspicion that the person subjected to the frisk is armed and dangerous”.

I'm going to respond to your DUI Checkpoint Scenario later, because it's late, and I've somehow written a novel. I did warn you I love talking Constitutional law

Quick note: I was referencing Terry v Ohio in my previous posts when I've mentioned how you should respond to a police officer, and what you allow to happen.

My favorite parts of the Terry decision

“There is nothing in the Constitution which prevents a policeman from addressing questions to anyone on the streets. Absent special circumstances, the person approached may not be detained or frisked but may refuse to cooperate and go on his way. However, given the proper circumstances, such as those in this case, it seems to me the person may be briefly detained against his will while pertinent questions are directed to him. Of course, the person stopped is not obliged to answer, answers may not be compelled, and refusal to answer furnishes no basis for an arrest, although it may alert the officer to the need for continued observation.”

and

“We hold today that the police have greater authority to make a ‘seizure’ and conduct a ‘search’ than a judge has to authorize such action. We have said precisely the opposite over and over again.” (392 U.S. 1, at 37).

“To give the police greater power than a magistrate is to take a long step down the totalitarian path. Perhaps such a step is desirable to cope with modern forms of lawlessness. But if it is taken, it should be the deliberate choice of the people through a constitutional amendment.” (392 U.S. 1, at 38).

Food for thought, eh?

 

[Blue Dot]

The only thing done by the new decision is to clarify the language to remove the need for the officer to believe the person was, is, or about to commit a crime.

But that's HUGE, right?

 

[NiteTiger]

Wow, their were a bunch of posts while I was writing that

Obviously, I need to address the DUI Checkpoint scenario sooner than later so we can continue this great discussion in an orderly manner.

In a DUI checkpoint, it's considered a compliance check, and not an actual 'stop'. This means that, lacking any evidence of a violation, you must be allowed to proceed. Now, if the officer diverts you from your course ("Pull over here to the side, sir"), he has now detained you, and all the rules of evidence and reasonableness apply.

The first problem with your scenario is that you cannot be ordered out of the car just for arriving at a DUI Checkpoint. If that were to happen, it would most certainly fall under the Fourth Amendment against Unreasonable Search and Seizure, since your person is being seized (defined by the Supreme Court as the citizen feeling that they are not free to leave the encounter [Terry Decision:“whenever a police officer accosts an individual and restrains his freedom to walk away, he has ‘seized’ that person.”]) without cause. You would also then be able to assert your 5th and 6th Amendment rights to not answer questions, and to have an attorney present. Remember, your rights are always in force, not just after the officer reads his Miranda card.

The other problem with your scenario is that you mention a warrant on record. That is most certainly probable cause for arrest, and search incident to arrest is well established.

Also keep in mind that in this case, the passenger was not just randomly removed from the car. He was wearing gang colors, in a known gang area, carrying a police scanner in his pocket, and had just been released from prison. Given these facts, the Justices felt that the officer had reasonable suspicion based on her position in the Gang Unit that gave her knowledge that the majority of the gang members in that area and that specific gang were armed. Taken in totality, the reasonableness of the pat down was clear.

Like I said, the only issue here was the 'was, is, or about to commit a crime'. None of the Justices thought the reasonableness of the pat down was remotely in question.

Oh, and yes, I agree, a pat down is a search, as clearly established by the Supreme Court as well. I was just making the clarification for those that are maybe a bit less versed.

...it is nothing less than sheer torture of the English language to suggest that a careful exploration of the outer surfaces of a person’s clothing all over his or her body in an attempt to find weapons is not a ‘search.’ ”

 

[NiteTiger]

But that's HUGE, right?

You snuck in on me again!

No, I don't believe it is huge, because you are still protected by the 'reasonableness' of the search - what led the officer to feel the person was armed and dangerous.

What the decision is saying is that an officer may act to preemptively insure their safety when there is a clear reason to believe that the person is armed and dangerous. It allows them to avert a potentially deadly situation before discovering what may precipitate that deadly action (the discovery of a crime having been committed, is being committed, or about to be committed).

In other words, the decision clarifies that an officer may take steps to insure safety before the investigation uncovers the violation, since that is when most resistance occurs. Allowing a person to retain a weapon the officer has reasonable suspicion to believe is present until the time comes that it is most likely to be put into use is at the very best unreasonable, and at the very worst, a death sentence to the officer and/or the suspect.

 

[Graffiti]

There is lot of good info here helping stoners understand their rights. But the truth is that every american is looking at a future where they either obey the laws of the governing elite who openly exploit us, obey the harsh laws of the jungle, or get drug from your home, taken to a fema camp and murdered. Most of us will be murdered. They are just slowly taking our rights away so that when the event takes place there won't be any room for an uprising or a revolution. The slow and inevitable destruction of our rights, those are really just small issues compared to the larger problem at hand. Within one human lifetime we will witness either the end of or the rebirth of all of humanity. This is a fact! At our current rate of growth we can not sustain human life on earth. LIFE CAN NOT BE SUSTAINED AT ANY RATE OF GROWTH. You probably think it's bad know, but if you survive what's to come you will obey every order you are given, your voice will be unheard, and your every move will be monitored, tracked, and controlled. I know this sounds like ridiculous conspiracy theory, but if you do the research and you look at direction we're heading and the events taking place all over the world. And ask yourself "If i was a nation leader, how would I deal with the population problem? Try to take it into humanities hands like we've always done, or let things continue to spiral out of control until nature takes care of it, possibly wiping us out completely..." We are at the peak of human civilization, it's all downhill from here. Well what can we do? you ask. Me, I've got a gun, I will fight, I will die. That's my future, you figure yours out.

I apologize if I'm off topic, I can't help but bring this shit up any time I even think about something to do with the government and the steps they are taking to turn the free nation of America into the fascist police state of the north american union.

 

[NiteTiger]

We are at the peak of human civilization

That's the most depressing thing I've ever heard. If we believe it to be true that we can do no better, then we deserve, and should actually welcome, extinction.

 

[swishaman]

Doesn't matter to me.

Just have to focus on driving well. Not fast, not slow. I liked to go about 1-2mph over the speed limit if I'm in a hurry, but that's it.

I've only been stopped once, and I do not believe I was even high or holding. He gave me a warning for going 51 in a 45 .. told me to 'watch my speed going down hills' which was funny because we live in Houston TX. lol...

Pretty sure he wanted to bust me for drugs or something, because he let me off wth a warning, but then again, it may just be because I have a perfect driving record...

To me, driving has always been as dangerous or even more dangerous than growing.

So, if i'm carrying dope from point A to point B, going the speed limit, using blinkers, using caution, not riding peoples ass takes priority over 'getting home quick'.


It's like you robbed a bank, and noone saw your get-a-way vehicle... are you going to blast through town as fast as possible? Or are you going to drive normally and blend in?

Blend in

 

[Graffiti]

That's the most depressing thing I've ever heard. If we believe it to be true that we can do no better, then we deserve, and should actually welcome, extinction.

Word, if some highly contagious plague swept through and wiped us all out, that probably wouldn't be a bad event in the grand scheme of things. If people really think we're still going to be driving cars, eating fast food, getting into debt and having families full of children in 20 years, then they are living in a fucking fairy tale land. In 1927 the population was 2 billion people, now it is 6.6 billion, MORE THAN TRIPLED IN 80 YEARS! How the fuck can we continue on like this? The only way we can sustain human life on earth is to return to the ways of our ancestors and learn to live off the land and let the weak die and the strong survive.

Believe me, I'd love to say that in 20 years we'll have like 8 or so billion people and they will all have food, water, and shelter and be cruising around in flying cars and being all futuristic and happy and shit. But if you knew what I knew, the thought of humanity 'advancing' much beyond this point seems pretty impossible with the kind of things that we are facing in the years to come. *sigh* But the masses will always be sleepwalking, believing all the words they hear from the magical picture box "Don't worry, we're gonna be fine!" if the truth is too much to handle, by all means keep believing the lies, I wish I could... it'd be a lot easier to live

 

[BiG H3rB Tr3E]

There is nothing funny about AIDS. I hope you die a very miserable and painful death if you think spreading HIV to people is funny. Yeah cops are assholes, and infact I hate them for the lies they used to ruin my early 20's. But guess what they are still fucking human too (sorta), and AIDS is not a joke.

get the fuck over it ,,,, it was a god damned joke. if you want tto be mad at someone,,,blame the fucking CIA<<<<they are the ones who engineered that disease and blamed it on africa. not me.

Word, if some highly contagious plague swept through and wiped us all out, that probably wouldn't be a bad event in the grand scheme of things. If people really think we're still going to be driving cars, eating fast food, getting into debt and having families full of children in 20 years, then they are living in a fucking fairy tale land. In 1927 the population was 2 billion people, now it is 6.6 billion, MORE THAN TRIPLED IN 80 YEARS! How the fuck can we continue on like this? The only way we can sustain human life on earth is to return to the ways of our ancestors and learn to live off the land and let the weak die and the strong survive.

Believe me, I'd love to say that in 20 years we'll have like 8 or so billion people and they will all have food, water, and shelter and be cruising around in flying cars and being all futuristic and happy and shit. But if you knew what I knew, the thought of humanity 'advancing' much beyond this point seems pretty impossible with the kind of things that we are facing in the years to come. *sigh* But the masses will always be sleepwalking, believing all the words they hear from the magical picture box "Don't worry, we're gonna be fine!" if the truth is too much to handle, by all means keep believing the lies, I wish I could... it'd be a lot easier to live

I really enjoy all these talks aobut how were all brainless sheeple sleepwalking. I forgot the part of your message where you detailed change?? Oh you have no fuckign idea either?

Well thank you for your post apocalyptic dream reality. Yeah theres 6.6 billion people IN THE WORLD. Go over to indonesia,, china,, and look at their population. China 1.3 Billion people themselfs (as of 07/2008).

So just because china looks like the chicken coup at kfc im all of a sudden supposed to freak out?

What we will see is a failing economy, the downfall of many business and enterprises, as well as starvation. But that is nothing we cant fix, we have created all these problems.

In fact we can do everything you said we cant.

They have already proved that they could cultivate much larger crops if they were grown indoors with solar power. But we dont want to have surplus, otherwise those crops are much cheaper.

We still have more water than land, and with the ice caps melting it will only usher in more water for us to desaltenize to become usable. So worst comes to worst....water might cost more. But this will only usher in new filtration units for personal use...

Flying cars, I really dont think any of us will ever be smart enough to fly these. Hell, I drive outside when its sprinkling outside and people are crashing all over the place. Can you imagine a air-to-air collision? No thank you.

Be real. Living in paranoid delusional quasi-reality can really turn you into an unlikeable person....

 

[NiteTiger]

Flying cars, I really dont think any of us will ever be smart enough to fly these. Hell, I drive outside when its sprinkling outside and people are crashing all over the place. Can you imagine a air-to-air collision? No thank you.

But it's the 21st century, and I still hold the truths of the Jetsons to be self-evident!

I will have my flying car dammit!

 

[ItsGrowTime]

NT posted way too much for me to even begin to reply in kind so Ill just hit a couple points and leave it at that.

First, I meant that a Terry stop would be conducted *solely* to start patting people down for "safety", not a pat down as incidental to a lawful Terry stop. I look at these things in the big picture, not just the case in front of the court. In a courtroom, lawyers use all sorts of end-around techniques to make inapplicable case law apply. When its the prosecution doing it, the judge tends to side with the state. Just how it is.

I disagree that DUI checkpoints will not allow this pat down ruling to apply. In the absence of direct prohibition by SCOTUS, it will be used. Cops will now take every liberty to pull passengers out of cars for "pat downs" regardless of whether there was justification since they can just make up whatever they want. Again, a pat down is a search since we all know that if you have a 1/8 in your pocket, the cop will feel it and say "What is that? Pull that out." If you say no, there's his reasonable suspicion to dig into your pocket and conduct a real "search". BAM! Busted. A patdown is a search since there's no way to NOT be busted if you are holding. And of course when the cops start doing this to everyone, DUI checkpoints included, you'll never hear about the 90% that didn't have anything on them and went on their way eventhough (IMHO) their 4th Amendment right was violated. We only hear about the cases that make it to the SCOTUS.

Bottom line, I dont really get into the Constitutional law argument so much as I get into the practical application argument. Give LEO an inch and they'll take a mile. When was the last time SCOTUS ruled in favor of a citizen on 4th Amendment grounds?!?

 

[madgravity34]

Wow, I really dont like the sounds of this. It always helped me relax some knowing that my last line of defense could be something like this.

All the more reason to put some real effort into stealth and *KEEP PEOPLE IN THE KNOW TO A MINIMUM*

Be safe everyone and keep it lit.

 

[Graffiti]

Well thank you for your post apocalyptic dream reality.

You are welcome. I can see you are upset with my last post. I do admit I sound like a jackass near the end, I'm sorry. To be honest a lot of you already know some of the shit I know, but you're either convinced it's nothing to worry about, or you just refuse to believe that it's even true. I'm not trying to say I'm some genius that knows something you don't, this shit is easy to find and research, I'm not trying to be smart or a smart ass, I'm not trying to say you are all a bunch of sheeple. In fact ICmag is full of some of the most intelligent and open minded people out there.

So just because china looks like the chicken coup at kfc im all of a sudden supposed to freak out?

Lets' get this straight, YES, I am fucking freaking out man! but NO I'm really not trying to freak you out... if the idea of overpopulation doesn't bother you then I don't imagine anything could really freak you out. But who knows, maybe someone out there will hear my paranoia and start to look this shit up for themselves and actually get concerned. That person is definately not you big herb tree.

But that is nothing we cant fix, we have created all these problems.

So since we are the cause of the problems then we are ultimately the solution? Isn't that the opposite of your quote that's under your name "No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it."
The chief cause of problems are solutions, think about it.

In fact we can do everything you said we cant.

I really do admire your faith in the ingenuity of mankind. But is it really that delusional for me to think that we might be facing problems that are beyond the solutions of humanity?

I forgot the part of your message where you detailed change?? Oh you have no fuckign idea either?

I'm taking steps towards change every day. I gather supplies and ammo, train, and learn how to survive without depending on the success of this government. I'm not perfect and i'll probably die if it comes down to it, but fuck it, the weak die and the strong live. There is no solution to this problem that will not end with massive civil unrest, our leaders know this and that is exactly why they are slowly tightening the noose.
I don't really understand what YOU think I'm trying to say, but the basics of it are this... Get guns and ammunition while you can and learn how to survive off the land. Even if I'm paranoid, these are still essential things for a human being to survive. This thread was started to note how the supreme court is slowly taking away our freedoms. Once all your freedoms are gone, then what? Just do what your told? Just let them administer their solutions to our problems with or without our consent? I knew I shouldn't have brought this bullshit up. I'm done now. It's time for me to go sit in my room with a helmet on and a shotgun, waiting for the end of the world... or a zombie apocalypse... or chuck norris
ItsGrowTime, I'm really sorry for polluting your thread with my nonsense, please forgive me.

 

[GeneticHeirloom]

To the OP: Throw a frog in boiling water it will jump out but slowly heat it up and it'll boil to death.


To the current convo:
There are endless versions of what's going on right now in history in an almost infinite degrees and no one ever learns. People get money hungry, power drunk and try to take over the world. Why is this period of human civilization any different?

Mongolia, China, Europe, Mayan, Babylon, Rome.. There's more, and endless names to go with these fallen empires and it was almost always over power and money.

The main differences between those periods and this is the availability of information, its speed of delivery, our vast knowledge of history, exponential increases in technologies and a massive world GDP.

I think we're in for rough times. Ignore everything else and you still have 2 major headaches. We are polluting the little fresh water we have and its disappearing fast and we only have cheap oil because of the recession, it wont be cheap for long and it will run out fast (seeing that 99% of your goods and daily items you eat wear and touch had some form of oil in its creation and delivery to you.)

my

 

[Shady Smoka]

Theres gonna be alot more accidents if ya know what i mean. This country is a fucking joke

So get out

 

[jaysplifferton]

Yeah. The worst thing is that to speak up about this BS IRL people will call you a fanatic, a freak, a wacko. They don't tell you about stuff like this on TV either. Same with how nobody knows that there's mercury in the High Fructose Corn Syrup (for real). With mass media, we now have a "smooth" "pleasant" "reality" where everything is separated into easy paint-by-numbers black and white. Ignorance is the reason stuff like this happens; stupid people. Nobody knows how to think critically anymore, the state doesn't reflect it's constituents, it has it's own agenda. Orwell's 1984. They can track us with our phones. The Patriot Act already gave them complete control over us. Nobody cares. The ships on fire and we're all going down with it. People don't talk to each other anymore. To live in this world you have to get your hope from some trumped up god who doesn't exist who's supposed to give you easy answers that don't exist. We can't ask questions, we don't know how, it's "un-American". How can you question the war? Sounds like I should illegally search your car.

God damn it. My ulcer is acting up again.

 

[hoosierdaddy]

Maybe you could show us a report of all of the Americans that have been locked up as a result of the Patriot Act?
I mean...hell...if we have lost it all to the man, I would suspect a long list.
Show us the list so we can see just how intrusive the PA has been on our lives.

 

[Blue Dot]

Yeah. The worst thing is that to speak up about this BS IRL people will call you a fanatic, a freak, a wacko. They don't tell you about stuff like this on TV either. Same with how nobody knows that there's mercury in the High Fructose Corn Syrup (for real). With mass media, we now have a "smooth" "pleasant" "reality" where everything is separated into easy paint-by-numbers black and white. Ignorance is the reason stuff like this happens; stupid people. Nobody knows how to think critically anymore, the state doesn't reflect it's constituents, it has it's own agenda. Orwell's 1984. They can track us with our phones. The Patriot Act already gave them complete control over us. Nobody cares. The ships on fire and we're all going down with it. People don't talk to each other anymore. To live in this world you have to get your hope from some trumped up god who doesn't exist who's supposed to give you easy answers that don't exist. We can't ask questions, we don't know how, it's "un-American". How can you question the war? Sounds like I should illegally search your car.

God damn it. My ulcer is acting up again.

Awesome post!