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to feed or not to feed
- Thread starter maryjohn
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master shake
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oops sorry, didn't notice the original post date. Yeah if you're close to harvest, no N as you know.
Meaning? You halted the yellowing advance? Your fading fans greened up again?
I've got two White Satins that are in a terrific mix, "Amazon Bloom". Terrific that is until the end of the first week of stretch. I noticed the lowest fans starting to go (yellow) after a flawless veg. I've been feeding EJ Grow at full strength every watering since and I can't stop the yellowing progression. IMO it's just too early.
That's why I wanted to know what you meant by "worked out well".
"worked out well" means I got a great yield for my first timer scrog skills with healthy, tasty, aromatically complex buds. As in, the hydrolysate (not an emulsion, my mistake) did not overfertilize my mix, causing stretching, or any other problems. Also bud formation went at a good clip, despite the fact I had to cut the lights by 1/3 in the last week due to non-optional travel. The plant also went through drought, heat stress, and other insults at various points.
The yellowing did slow down but did not halt completely. I do have a strong suspicion that had I done nothing, I would have had similar results in terms of yield and quality. But advice that might help and doesn't hurt and costs very little is good advice in my book. I wasn't growing for the lower fan leaves, and the actual buds were very healthy looking.
I have the same strain in 12/12 now, in the beginning of stretch. I've been on the ball with this one, transplanting when I should and installing the screen on time, and using a clone of the first one. So my veg time has been much much shorter, and everything looks as beautiful as a scrog can look. (there is a picture in the experimental grows section). Also I have been applying fish hydrolysate occasionally, 2 times total for the veg. After harvest I will give an opinion on whether I got a better yield per bud site with more fertile soil, but it will be very subjective and pretty meaningless. On bud quality I will have better info.
I occurs to me that in a scrog, you remove a whole lot of leaves that are used to store nutrients. That's probably very stressful, and no further stressing is required (in my case, add rootbinding: I do it all in 8"pots). So I've been giving them hydrolysate. I will try to post pics of the latest iteration around 3 weeks flowering for comparison, and also let you know if the buds are different.
bottom line: that was easy. the less is more approach served me well this time, though I did intervene beyond just watering. Also the plant did very well despite being in very depleted soil by flowering, and having most of its stores removed. very tough plant. Had I tried to correct the yellowing, or given high P supplements, rather than gently feeding the soil with gentle and balanced nutrition, I might have disturbed some other process that was working in my favor.
Organics can be so easy, but you have to give up micromanagement. If I could fit bigger pots in my setup, I would cut out even the fish fertilizer.
The yellowing did slow down but did not halt completely. I do have a strong suspicion that had I done nothing, I would have had similar results in terms of yield and quality. But advice that might help and doesn't hurt and costs very little is good advice in my book. I wasn't growing for the lower fan leaves, and the actual buds were very healthy looking.
I have the same strain in 12/12 now, in the beginning of stretch. I've been on the ball with this one, transplanting when I should and installing the screen on time, and using a clone of the first one. So my veg time has been much much shorter, and everything looks as beautiful as a scrog can look. (there is a picture in the experimental grows section). Also I have been applying fish hydrolysate occasionally, 2 times total for the veg. After harvest I will give an opinion on whether I got a better yield per bud site with more fertile soil, but it will be very subjective and pretty meaningless. On bud quality I will have better info.
I occurs to me that in a scrog, you remove a whole lot of leaves that are used to store nutrients. That's probably very stressful, and no further stressing is required (in my case, add rootbinding: I do it all in 8"pots). So I've been giving them hydrolysate. I will try to post pics of the latest iteration around 3 weeks flowering for comparison, and also let you know if the buds are different.
bottom line: that was easy. the less is more approach served me well this time, though I did intervene beyond just watering. Also the plant did very well despite being in very depleted soil by flowering, and having most of its stores removed. very tough plant. Had I tried to correct the yellowing, or given high P supplements, rather than gently feeding the soil with gentle and balanced nutrition, I might have disturbed some other process that was working in my favor.
Organics can be so easy, but you have to give up micromanagement. If I could fit bigger pots in my setup, I would cut out even the fish fertilizer.
Yes try larger containers next time. Because you used tiny pots, the critical mass to support soil life as an entity wasn't quite there. The fish hydrolysate (yes NOT emulsion) is a very good choice as it feeds the entire realm of microbes and really supports fungal hyphae growth (including mycorrhizal). When you establish your large containers, mix in a little kelp and rock phosphate. After you harvest, drop a few of your composting worms in there to convert the dead roots to vermicompost. To get them out again just make a trap using some container with the right size mesh/openings against the soil for them to crawl up into and put their favorite food in there (soggy bread, etc) and cover the trap with wet cardboard which also attracts them to the trap (I used mesh plastic transplant pot trays but I used bins). No big deal if you miss a few. Between crops is a good time to apply EM fermentations as EM is a great soil contidioner.
they won't fit in my cab. 2 x 8" is the max and it's a tight fit, although I could try building a larger square container that holds one or two plants and has just one screen. However I would lose the ability to offset the addition of a new pot, which I'm trying to figure out for a more perpetual grow.
with the bigger container I would get a better yield per watt I think, but less convenience.
still, it's remarkable what you can pull out of an 8" pot.
thanks for those other methods though, I will set something up with my used soil when my bokashi bin is ready. As for trapping the worms, you really are a worm lover. I would just leave them in there and let them die. Got tons of worms.
cosmiccowboy
Member
do you lst?
BTW I noticed someone said again that organic N can be assimilated through the leaves (stomata). Please provide evidence for this. I'm dying to see it and become convinced. Evidence is not 'I sprayed my plants and they looked better, etc.'
cowboy, I scrog in a cab made from rubbermaid tubs. It's in the "library of links".
If you go to the experimental grows in the breeders section, you can see my setup somewhat. If you want to see my cab, do search in the micro grows section. It's called the "super simple stacker".
Funny, I came here looking for a way to grow inside, and wound up staying to talk about soil. I've disappeared from my usual spots.
Microbe, I used to be pretty sure diluted urine was absorbed through the leaves, but when you made me think about it, I realized most of it was dripping onto my soil after hitting the leaves. It did work fast though, which tells me it was readily available to some fast working microbes at the least.
this is what they look like now after a training session. top one is pacific mix, bottom is blue burmese (bagseed origin).
and an older shot to show how small this all is:
I'm still nervous about posting pics at all.
If you go to the experimental grows in the breeders section, you can see my setup somewhat. If you want to see my cab, do search in the micro grows section. It's called the "super simple stacker".
Funny, I came here looking for a way to grow inside, and wound up staying to talk about soil. I've disappeared from my usual spots.
Microbe, I used to be pretty sure diluted urine was absorbed through the leaves, but when you made me think about it, I realized most of it was dripping onto my soil after hitting the leaves. It did work fast though, which tells me it was readily available to some fast working microbes at the least.
this is what they look like now after a training session. top one is pacific mix, bottom is blue burmese (bagseed origin).
and an older shot to show how small this all is:
I'm still nervous about posting pics at all.
glad it worked out for you mj!. i find that yellow leaves dont really green up again once they have gone past a certain point, but if you feed the plants still respond well to it.
on the subject of leaves i hardly remove any from my scrog.
one way i used to mitigate the problems of small pots is to stand the small pot in another identical pot with no holes, then when you water you can leave the runoff in the second pot and i find the roots will grow through the holes and drink the nutrient rich water - you almost get a mini hydro type thing going on in the second pot. obviously you cant leave too much water in there and you dont want it there all the time but it's easy to check. i did this with 1 gallon pits in my greenhouse this summer and got some decent sized plants which i know would have suffered without the extra water/feeding.
V.
on the subject of leaves i hardly remove any from my scrog.
one way i used to mitigate the problems of small pots is to stand the small pot in another identical pot with no holes, then when you water you can leave the runoff in the second pot and i find the roots will grow through the holes and drink the nutrient rich water - you almost get a mini hydro type thing going on in the second pot. obviously you cant leave too much water in there and you dont want it there all the time but it's easy to check. i did this with 1 gallon pits in my greenhouse this summer and got some decent sized plants which i know would have suffered without the extra water/feeding.
V.
leaves: I'm not sure I could manage to leave them on. It gets very humid in there, and airflow is not great unless I thin them. It's just more material than my system can handle, and I don't think the cfl does much good that far away anyway. And my design does sacrifice a reflectivity for stealth.
I'd love to try your suggestion, but I don't think I could fit anything else in there. the trellis braces already touch the wall of the tub. I was thinking along those lines though, when I decided to give the walmart self watering planter a try. So far it seems to do about as well as a regular planter.
here's how it looks, but it now has 2 fans and some other adjustments.
I'd love to try your suggestion, but I don't think I could fit anything else in there. the trellis braces already touch the wall of the tub. I was thinking along those lines though, when I decided to give the walmart self watering planter a try. So far it seems to do about as well as a regular planter.
here's how it looks, but it now has 2 fans and some other adjustments.
stomata open signals
high rh (low vpd)
low temperature
low c02 concentration
high light level
growing greenhouse seedless cucumbers in soil and soilless media:
considerations.
high mobility nutrient, especially urea. applied in light concentrations. other high mobility nutrients are potassium, and phosphorous.
>1.0 ec/>500 ppm/ph 7.0+, as slightly alkaline nutrient ph influences stomata opening.
non-polarized, low-surface tension surfacants. couple drops of baby oil seems to work.
http://turf.arizona.edu/ccps101.htm:
hope this helps. enjoy your garden!
mistress, from the second link you posted:
and not to quibble, but your article discusses turf grasses, which are essentially a leaf with roots, and the author goes on to say it has to get to the roots to really work anyway.
It does appear though, from what you posted, that urea can be absorbed through the leaf in small amounts, and urea is indeed an organic compound. But your article also points out that most nutrient compounds are too big to fit through the available pore.
At this juncture it seems best to stick with microbeman's advice if foliar feeding can have any adverse effects (humidity, etc...), and otherwise go ahead but you are probably wasting your time; you could have just dumped it on the soil. The advantages described in your article have to do with the way mowing tends to disperse fertilizer pellets. Are you mowing your plants? If not, what are the advantages to foliar spraying of organic nutrients if they need to reach the soil to be effective?
let me further point out that your second article contradicts your first point with regards to open stomata. Is this because we have switched to turf?:
In conclusion let me point out some other things: 1)MJ is not a turf grass, and it's either lazy or disingenuous to treat it like one to backfill the facts for your conclusion. Without some research or explanations, you can't always conclude that monocots and dicots work the same way, especially when it comes to absorbing things. In this case all the obvious differences seem to have been overlooked, leaving you out there with a ridiculously hasty conclusion and some baseless assumptions. Was this article fully read before it was posted?
2)Cucurbits in general seem to absorb everything and anything, and they do so passively, and this makes them a bit special among dicots. That's why Cucumbers often show up in greenhouse studies. Just one example: guess what I found when researching silicon? Cucmbers. Guess what else? Monocots like horsetail and rice. What conclusion could I draw for MJ, given the research on grasses and cucumbers? NONE.
3)feeding at night, especially during 12/12, is a problem for most. I guess with a grow room and a special light you could do it, but would it be worth the trouble to achieve something less effective than feeding via the soil?
and not to quibble, but your article discusses turf grasses, which are essentially a leaf with roots, and the author goes on to say it has to get to the roots to really work anyway.
It does appear though, from what you posted, that urea can be absorbed through the leaf in small amounts, and urea is indeed an organic compound. But your article also points out that most nutrient compounds are too big to fit through the available pore.
At this juncture it seems best to stick with microbeman's advice if foliar feeding can have any adverse effects (humidity, etc...), and otherwise go ahead but you are probably wasting your time; you could have just dumped it on the soil. The advantages described in your article have to do with the way mowing tends to disperse fertilizer pellets. Are you mowing your plants? If not, what are the advantages to foliar spraying of organic nutrients if they need to reach the soil to be effective?
let me further point out that your second article contradicts your first point with regards to open stomata. Is this because we have switched to turf?:
In conclusion let me point out some other things: 1)MJ is not a turf grass, and it's either lazy or disingenuous to treat it like one to backfill the facts for your conclusion. Without some research or explanations, you can't always conclude that monocots and dicots work the same way, especially when it comes to absorbing things. In this case all the obvious differences seem to have been overlooked, leaving you out there with a ridiculously hasty conclusion and some baseless assumptions. Was this article fully read before it was posted?
2)Cucurbits in general seem to absorb everything and anything, and they do so passively, and this makes them a bit special among dicots. That's why Cucumbers often show up in greenhouse studies. Just one example: guess what I found when researching silicon? Cucmbers. Guess what else? Monocots like horsetail and rice. What conclusion could I draw for MJ, given the research on grasses and cucumbers? NONE.
3)feeding at night, especially during 12/12, is a problem for most. I guess with a grow room and a special light you could do it, but would it be worth the trouble to achieve something less effective than feeding via the soil?
fwiw, the foliar regime that is used in imaginary garden is here:maryjohn said:
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=121285
ultimate foliar feeding recipe
&
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=121285
foliar feeding in flowering
here, it is kept expremely simple. the normal root regime is watered down to ~250 ppm, w/ ph of 7.0+. couple drops of baby oil as surfacant (wetting agent). end.
if uncomfortable w/ foliar feeding - dont do it. again, simple.
the only adverse effects occur when there is no air circulation to carry away the vapor pressure (aka rh). after foliar spray, entire canopy shpuld be 100% dry in >5 mins. here, it is 2 min... turbulent + laminate air flows, like in clean room.
the foliar feeding process is not exclusive to turf grasses...
from:*mistress* said:
calculating npk/nutrient profile
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=2635680#post2635680
not to mention that floralicious recommends foliar spraying w/ it... npk 1-1-1, derived from molasses + humic acids...
from what can gather, the 100% organic gardeners love to foliar spray more than chem gardeners. molasses is a universally advocated as a wetting agent and non-burning foliar spray.
not basing this/that on articles. in imagination, have foliar sprayed up to wk 6 for many, many seasons...
not attempting to convince any gardener to do anything. it is you and your that will eat the fruit. this is open forum on internet; there are obviously no dominant viewpoints. the objective would seem to be to acquire as much data as possible - then select the methods that best suit your garden .
a high school biology book will let you know that most c4 plants can readily assimilate nutes, or any thing else, via leaves, @ correct ph & environmental conditions... or even @ incorrect conditions. see acid rain... this is generally termed respiration...
dont have to feed @ night, though cheap green party light does make this possible. can foliar feed any time... just need that air flow to get condensation off leaves. fans on 'high' usually gets this done.
do prefer when lights initially come on. this is 'lag' period, or time plant is most capable of being influenced. ~1 hr after lights on is when they register temps, vpd, light levels/spectrum, etc.
dont discuss mj. only discuss tomatoes, cucumbers, etc. if think regime for these fruits inapplicable - dont apply.
actually, the seedless cucumber book has been literally copied by so many 'mj' gardening books it is amazing. acquired it when 1st came out, circa 1994. since then, it has been referenced +++ times in many industry texts. not turf grass, but viable fruit. ultimately, this is what you want: good fruit.
there is no trouble @ all to foliar. 1 part nute mix to 4-5 part tap water + a little pro-tekt to raise ph +_add silica. h202 always present for oxygen... spray entire garden, using all 32oz. end. instant assimilation of electrical charges...
a poster asks if n can be assimilated via leaves. answer: yes. if want further evidence, do research on links/texts provided.
if a greenhouse research station is recommending foliar spray of nitrogen, perhaps it is doable...
enjoy your garden!
exactly what was your point? Nobody should look into anything but you just wanted to remind us that some people foliar spray cucumbers and turf grass? And you wish to point out that you are still confused about tea? And you reposted your regimen again...
1)you claimed you apply foliar spray to feed through stomates, with technical details that sound fascinating
2)you post an article stating no such thing is possible
just one example of some confounding assertions gleaned from a superficial understanding of the principles at work. My rebuttal feels like talking to a tree - a tree that doesn't get it.
I maintain that most people who believe they are foliar feeding are in fact applying fertilizer to soil or medium. The absorbtion via leaves is minimal, and is best done at night. Unsaid was the fact that urea converts to ammonia if it stays on a leaf surface and is lost to the air, so surfactants are a further waste of resources.
The other liquid nutes that are absorbed - are they organic? Is anything you are talking about organic? Are you in the right forum?
1)you claimed you apply foliar spray to feed through stomates, with technical details that sound fascinating
2)you post an article stating no such thing is possible
just one example of some confounding assertions gleaned from a superficial understanding of the principles at work. My rebuttal feels like talking to a tree - a tree that doesn't get it.
I maintain that most people who believe they are foliar feeding are in fact applying fertilizer to soil or medium. The absorbtion via leaves is minimal, and is best done at night. Unsaid was the fact that urea converts to ammonia if it stays on a leaf surface and is lost to the air, so surfactants are a further waste of resources.
The other liquid nutes that are absorbed - are they organic? Is anything you are talking about organic? Are you in the right forum?
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2635655&postcount=34:
*edit*
posted facts.
member microbeman had question about organic n being assimilated into leaves.
provided substantial data supporting that 'organic' n can be assimilated. see above.
members must sort thru facts and reach own conclusions.
enjoy your garden!
organic fertilizer is stating that it is an "excellent nitrogen source"... and that they recommend foliar feeding...*mistress* said:
*edit*
posted facts.
member microbeman had question about organic n being assimilated into leaves.
provided substantial data supporting that 'organic' n can be assimilated. see above.
members must sort thru facts and reach own conclusions.
enjoy your garden!
Mistress *can* as long as she is not here to start fights, aka a troll. "Tying others into knots" is maybe your daily operation, but can you let us discuss organic gardening? I don't wish to be tied into knots and I never agreed to it.
You repeatedly avoid the argument over facts in favor of discussing what is "organic". No offense intended but it appears to be a juvenile diversion. Organic gardening is not the same as organic chemistry.
Do you have anything at all to say about the factual and substantive disagreements I and others have with the statements you made?
You repeatedly avoid the argument over facts in favor of discussing what is "organic". No offense intended but it appears to be a juvenile diversion. Organic gardening is not the same as organic chemistry.
Do you have anything at all to say about the factual and substantive disagreements I and others have with the statements you made?
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