Tikal

[Campfire]

Dubi - I'm buying a couple packs of Tikal and Orient Express. I just learned that you backcrossed the original Tikal to the Guatemalan father - I have three questions in regard to this:


(1) - does the backcrossed Tikal finish any later (outdoors) than the original?

(2) - How close to the pure Guatemalan is the Tikal experience?

(3) - would Tikal tend to finish later than Orient Express? (I'm at 43N)



And thank you, SO much, for providing such fantastic, lively sativa varieties to the world.

 

[dubi]

Hello Campfire,

The original Tikal was a selected Nl Haze mother pollinated by guatemala father, latest standard versions (post 2006) are original Tikal crossed again to guatemala fathers (NL/Haze/Guatemala x Guatemala), it's a backcross to the same guatemala line but not the same father.

The fem version is a serious improvement in the line: an original Tikal mum selected for her strawberry aromas, high yield and happy positive high, was reversed to pollinate selected females from a concrete standard backcrossed Tikal line, a bit more long flowering line but showing excellent potency, yield, high flower leaf ratio and incensey aromas. So the fem version is: NL/Haze/Guatemala x Guatemala (powerful incensey pheno) females X NL/Haze/Guatemala reversed female (happy strawberry pheno). Quite a complex hybrid.

To answer your questions:

1) Both fem and standard version finish around 2nd-3rd week of October, 2 weeks earlier than pure guatemala.

2) The standard line is the closest in concept and finished product to the pure guatemala sativa.

3) Tikal usually needs 10-14 days more to mature than Orient Express.

Hope it helps, please let me know if you have any doubt. Tikal was bred by komanche, one of my closest friends and ace seeds' breeder since the early days of our collective.

Dubi - I'm buying a couple packs of Tikal. I just learned that you backcrossed the original Tikal to the Guatemalan father - I have TWO questions in regard to this:


(1) - does the backcrossed Tikal finish any later (outdoors) than the original?

(2) - How close to the pure Guatemalan is the Tikal experience?



And thank you SO much for providing such fantastic sativa varieties to the world.

 

[Campfire]

Wow, thank you for that very comprehensive reply. That's all I needed to know.

 

[spiralofeyes]

Godamn it...I need to get this strain. It kind of strikes me as the ace version of Flo,a nice latino sativa adapted to indoors with a positive up high and nice aromas. What's not to like? A cross to my purple DP Flo cut or perhaps a cross with the Barra Crinkle Oaxacans I just got could be divine.

 

[Bacchus]

Awesome!!!!

 

[Gandalb]

Tikal is my favourite. The smell is strawberry, the flavour is hazy-strawberry-herbal.
This year I'm growing a pheno called Tikal#4.
Dubi told me that is one of the best phenos of Tikal. Long narrow leaves.
As soon as I put it on the floor i'll show you some photos.

Saludos

 

[dubi]

Godamn it...I need to get this strain. It kind of strikes me as the ace version of Flo,a nice latino sativa adapted to indoors with a positive up high and nice aromas. What's not to like? A cross to my purple DP Flo cut or perhaps a cross with the Barra Crinkle Oaxacans I just got could be divine.

Hello spiralofeyes,

Tikal is more vigorous, bigger, bushier and better yielding than Flo (especially Tikal fem version), althought both have incensey sativa aromas they are a different smokes. I like Flo and blue indicas a lot ... DJ's work is fantastic, i've always try to motivate growers to cross our sativas with dj short's blue indica breds. I bet the results are outstanding.

 

[dubi]

Tikal is my favourite. The smell is strawberry, the flavour is hazy-strawberry-herbal.
This year I'm growing a pheno called Tikal#4.
Dubi told me that is one of the best phenos of Tikal. Long narrow leaves.
As soon as I put it on the floor i'll show you some photos.

Saludos

Great to see you around Gandalb!

I know you truely love Tikal, thanks a lot for your feedback! Hope you are enjoying there! Best wishes for new outdoor season.

 

[spiralofeyes]

Hello spiralofeyes,

Tikal is more vigorous, bigger, bushier and better yielding than Flo (especially Tikal fem version), althought both have incensey sativa aromas they are a different smokes. I like Flo and blue indicas a lot ... DJ's work is fantastic, i've always try to motivate growers to cross our sativas with dj short's blue indica breds. I bet the results are outstanding.

Thanks for the response,dubi. It's great to hear that you also see potential in my planned cross. My original intention was to bring the Flo closer to her oaxacan roots,as I've heard that Guatemalan strains are quite similar to the heirloom Mexicans and Guatemala's proximity to the state of Oaxaca leads me to believe that there would be some shared traits,if not direct genetic heritage. Adding more vigour,namely stronger stalks to the Flo would be a definite plus,I think. As my cut is very floppy and needs to be staked extensively. If you wouldn't mind,could you please expand upon how they differ in effect?

edit: I'm also contemplating using the pure Guatemalan for this cross. Any thoughts,tips etc. on this?

 

[bodymind]

I am also planning on breeding pure guat sativa, pck, and my selected and inbred, very sativa, line of flo together this summer! I am VERY excited by this project. Although, I have never grown or sampled the guatemalan or the pck, I have been dreaming about them ever since i first read about them!

 

[dubi]

Thanks for the response,dubi. It's great to hear that you also see potential in my planned cross. My original intention was to bring the Flo closer to her oaxacan roots,as I've heard that Guatemalan strains are quite similar to the heirloom Mexicans and Guatemala's proximity to the state of Oaxaca leads me to believe that there would be some shared traits,if not direct genetic heritage. Adding more vigour,namely stronger stalks to the Flo would be a definite plus,I think. As my cut is very floppy and needs to be staked extensively. If you wouldn't mind,could you please expand upon how they differ in effect?

edit: I'm also contemplating using the pure Guatemalan for this cross. Any thoughts,tips etc. on this?

Hello spiralofeyes,

Guatemala strain has many traits related to mexican sativas: vigorous branchy structure, clear up high, moderate flowering time, easy to acclimatize to northern latitudes.

My breeding experience with DJ's lines is limited, i tried his Flo many years ago and i liked it a lot, especially its hashy/incensey aromas and its powerful clear peaceful effect. Despite the low vigour, Dj shorts' indica breds have many desirable traits: quality of aromas taste and effect, aesthetic appearance ...

I think you can easily join the desirable traits from our sativas with dj shorts indica positive traits. Indeed, if you find the right sativa/indica combo, all this positive traits should be expressed in a more vigorous way, especially in the F1 hybrid.

I'd consider to cross Tikal with Flo too, outcome should have stronger effect and aromas, stronger structure and shorter flowering time than guatemala x flo hybrid.

I think you already have all this things in mind, not sure if it helps but it's always a pleasure to talk about cannabis breeding

 

[dubi]

I am also planning on breeding pure guat sativa, pck, and my selected and inbred, very sativa, line of flo together this summer! I am VERY excited by this project. Although, I have never grown or sampled the guatemalan or the pck, I have been dreaming about them ever since i first read about them!

Hello bodymind,

I think we tried a PCK x Flo hybrid around 2006. Charlie's pakistan chitral is a perfect indica to join with dj short's indica breds. You can easily bred a very colorful, grape floral hashy indica with great mold resistance and outstanding quality of effect. Thanks for consider ace seeds/cannabiogen lines for your own breeding projects.

 

[spiralofeyes]

Hello spiralofeyes,

Guatemala strain has many traits related to mexican sativas: vigorous branchy structure, clear up high, moderate flowering time, easy to acclimatize to northern latitudes.

My breeding experience with DJ's lines is limited, i tried his Flo many years ago and i liked it a lot, especially its hashy/incensey aromas and its powerful clear peaceful effect. Despite the low vigour, Dj shorts' indica breds have many desirable traits: quality of aromas taste and effect, aesthetic appearance ...

I think you can easily join the desirable traits from our sativas with dj shorts indica positive traits. Indeed, if you find the right sativa/indica combo, all this positive traits should be expressed in a more vigorous way, especially in the F1 hybrid.

I'd consider to cross Tikal with Flo too, outcome should have stronger effect and aromas, stronger structure and shorter flowering time than guatemala x flo hybrid.

I think you already have all this things in mind, not sure if it helps but it's always a pleasure to talk about cannabis breeding

Thank you so much,yet again,dubi. Any insight you can offer helps a lot. A real pleasure to able to glean information from the actual breeder of the genetics I'm looking to get

I gotta say, even though I love the idea of using the pure Guatemalan,I feel that the small percentage of dutch genetics in Tikal will make it blend better with Flo,a suspicion you've seemed to confirm.I also think my head needs the indica in there to smooth out the sativa effect,as I'm a pretty anxious person by nature.Would you say the Tikal is calmer/kinder then the pure GS?

Physical traits don't worry me much as I've tamed thais and other very stretchy plants to grow quite comfortably in my homebox.
Root restriction,pruning and low nitrogen levels seem to work on even the most extreme sativas. I'm just worried that the 600 watts I'm currently running won't be enough to get the full potential out of the GS... Would more watts/mixed spectrum lighting help with this?

At the moment I'm leaning towards using Tikal, I see a strong conceptual parallel,an affinity of sorts between it and Flo ,they both bring old-school Mexican qualities in an indoor friendly package. I'm very excited about the possible outcomes of the cross.

A few more specifics I'm wondering about,if you don't mind speculating with me,man:

-You say that the right combination of sat/indi traits could yield a F1. My Flo cut,which is pretty sativa dominant,is the female I would like to use,it's just a matter of convenience/familiarity. Would I be better off popping some more Flo and looking for a more indi expression there or could I find a more indica-ish Tikal male in the pack? Would doing an incross of Tikal help in finding a suitable male perhaps? This is obviously more work,but I'm willing to do this if it would yield a better result. Or,on the flipside,would I be better off using Flo as the male in this cross? I've noticed that people in general seem to have more luck with using the Blues as the pollen donor in most cases.

-Would you recommend any of your other strains for a cross with Flo,or another blue strain? A paralell line of sorts,I guess. I'd love some variety in aromas/effects,but still stay in that general area. Panama has my eye,as 3d's cross of panama and F13 looked and sounded incredible to me. The Nep/Haze has also piqued my interest...

 

[bodymind]

-You say that the right combination of sat/indi traits could yield a F1. My Flo cut,which is pretty sativa dominant,is the female I would like to use,it's just a matter of convenience/familiarity. Would I be better off popping some more Flo and looking for a more indi expression there or could I find a more indica-ish Tikal male in the pack? Would doing an incross of Tikal help in finding a suitable male perhaps? This is obviously more work,but I'm willing to do this if it would yield a better result. Or,on the flipside,would I be better off using Flo as the male in this cross? I've noticed that people in general seem to have more luck with using the Blues as the pollen donor in most cases.

-Would you recommend any of your other strains for a cross with Flo,or another blue strain? A paralell line of sorts,I guess. I'd love some variety in aromas/effects,but still stay in that general area. Panama has my eye,as 3d's cross of panama and F13 looked and sounded incredible to me. The Nep/Haze has also piqued my interest...

HEY! I'm loving these ides being voiced, as they've all been knocking around in my head for awhile, too. I think you should stick with your flo mom. Finding and testing suitable males will take way longer than necessary. That's just my knee-jerk reaction though.

 

[spiralofeyes]

I you have quite experienced and knowledgeable knees I'm leaning in that direction too,I have limited space,so I could never really do the numbers needed for real selection work,so I might as well roll with the dice I have. I'm pretty familiar witth my gal,and I think she'll breed well. She's a nice starting point just because I've smoked her so much,I guess. She'll be the acid-test of sorts for any barra males that may show up this summer,and the tikals which will be coming down the line.

Thanks for the backup,dude. I think I may have been complicating things unnecessarily for myself. I ain't no breeder.But I' can't really go wrong with any of these crosses me thinks. I just have a hunch about some stuff,and i know what I like to smoke/grow.That should be enough for some intuitive pollen chucking and grade school level breeding,like+like equals like.Satisfying my own needs is just fine with me

 

[bodymind]

Exactly... the numbers needed for selecting well are pretty high when dealing with dj's lines from my experience.... It's one thing to make strong plants with good physical characteristics - It's a whole other thing to select for the high.

 

[spiralofeyes]

Yeah,I'm glad I got myself down to earth on that one. Running even a smallish lot of 20-30 plants would take me several rounds. I'm just looking to get some interesting plants and conversely,buds out of this,not establishing a new line.

 

[dubi]

Thank you so much,yet again,dubi. Any insight you can offer helps a lot. A real pleasure to able to glean information from the actual breeder of the genetics I'm looking to get

I gotta say, even though I love the idea of using the pure Guatemalan,I feel that the small percentage of dutch genetics in Tikal will make it blend better with Flo,a suspicion you've seemed to confirm.I also think my head needs the indica in there to smooth out the sativa effect,as I'm a pretty anxious person by nature.Would you say the Tikal is calmer/kinder then the pure GS?

Physical traits don't worry me much as I've tamed thais and other very stretchy plants to grow quite comfortably in my homebox.
Root restriction,pruning and low nitrogen levels seem to work on even the most extreme sativas. I'm just worried that the 600 watts I'm currently running won't be enough to get the full potential out of the GS... Would more watts/mixed spectrum lighting help with this?

At the moment I'm leaning towards using Tikal, I see a strong conceptual parallel,an affinity of sorts between it and Flo ,they both bring old-school Mexican qualities in an indoor friendly package. I'm very excited about the possible outcomes of the cross.

A few more specifics I'm wondering about,if you don't mind speculating with me,man:

-You say that the right combination of sat/indi traits could yield a F1. My Flo cut,which is pretty sativa dominant,is the female I would like to use,it's just a matter of convenience/familiarity. Would I be better off popping some more Flo and looking for a more indi expression there or could I find a more indica-ish Tikal male in the pack? Would doing an incross of Tikal help in finding a suitable male perhaps? This is obviously more work,but I'm willing to do this if it would yield a better result. Or,on the flipside,would I be better off using Flo as the male in this cross? I've noticed that people in general seem to have more luck with using the Blues as the pollen donor in most cases.

-Would you recommend any of your other strains for a cross with Flo,or another blue strain? A paralell line of sorts,I guess. I'd love some variety in aromas/effects,but still stay in that general area. Panama has my eye,as 3d's cross of panama and F13 looked and sounded incredible to me. The Nep/Haze has also piqued my interest...

High spiralofeyes,

It's also a pleasure try to help and to fantasize about new canna combinations.

I dont Tikal effect is calmer/kinder than pure guatemala sativa. Guatemala has a more natural kind of effect, Tikal is more powerful and complex. 600 w is enough to grow Tikal and Guatemala.

If you are thinking to do a sativa x flo cross i'd choose the sativa as a mum and Flo as a father. If you already have your selected Flo female you can start a fem project, selecting a good Tikal (or guatemala female), reversing your Flo mum and then pollinate the sativa. I have the feeling that a flo x sativa cross would produce a taller branchy hybrid but i maybe be wrong.

Other strains to join with Flo mmmmmm .... PCK naturally comes to my mind.... Flo x Bangi Haze, Flo x Orient Express or Flo x Nepalese Jam would produce good high yielding indoor friendly sativa dom hybrids too.

Good luck on your projects!

 

[spiralofeyes]

Hey dubi,

THANK YOU You've made things MUCH easier for me,man.I've settled on using the Guatemalan Sativa over Tikal. A natural effect sounds like my cup of tea.And hanging around the DJ sub has turned me into somewhat of a latin landrace nut. I'll have a shot at getting some Flo males this winter/fall if all goes to plan. If this pans out,I think I'll try the cross both ways,i.e my Flo mom x GS,and GS x Flo male. These two lines could be combined at a later date as well,me thinks... I have limited space on my own,but I have a few friends who grow and may be persuaded to help in growing out these beans. It's early days yet,and I have way to many ideas nad way too little time/space....sigh.

I'll start the project with some controlled pollinations of my Flo this fall. A trial run of sorts. The first round of daddies will be: a GS male,a barra oaxaca crinkle male and two other candidates yet to be revealed. I might try my own cross of Ice x Thai if any stand-out males show up from that experiment. Nep/Jam is also a strong contender for one of those two spots,PCK has also risen on my list as I'm getting more and more into drysifting and bubblemaking.
Combining the BOC and the GS at a later stage should also yield some interesting results,me thinks. An uber heirloom mexican of sorts....
/ramble.

Thanks again dubi, you're an awesome guy and a great breeder.I look forward to growing your wonderful strains,and I'll document my ace stuff here for sure.

edit: when,will the Guatemalan be back in stock at the bou? Should I just order it directly form the ace site,maybe?

 

[dubi]

Hi spiralofeyes! It's a pleasure try to help you

It' will be great if you have the chance to try both sides: flo x guatemala and guatemala x flo, i'd also consider to include PCK or nepalese jam to your breeding project. A cross between a good oaxacan and guatemala sativa would be great too! Lot of ideas come to mind

Not sure about a guatemala re stock at SB ... we still have a few pure guatemala packs here at ace seeds store (08 harvest) and we are working on a new guatemala reproduction right now so hopefully there will be plenty of fresh stock early next year.

Thanks for your kind of words, have a great weekend and enjoy!