This Is How You Kill Powder Mildew Forever!!!!!

[SeaMaiden]

Or find a friend in the biz...Picking up my 2.5 gallons of Oxidate next week! Not that'll need that much, but hey, that's how (smallest size) he gets it.

Yep, that's the smallest size you can get for ag use, just like that big ol' bag of Surround is all you can get for ag use (it's good to have an agitator in your tanks).

I like to get things done for myself when and where ever I can.

 

[krunchbubble]

Now, let's go with your assertion that I'm speculating. This suggests to me that you're using the shit out of E20 and haven't done one iota of due diligence; i.e. research and reading.

You dont know me or my growing practices...

 

[macdiesel]

I had PM a few years ago. Hit it with Eagle20 and haven't seen it since.

Wish I had something that worked as well for mites.

I understand Krunchbubble rage at naysayers. So much disinformation out there....let the idiots choke on truth.

 

[SeaMaiden]

You dont know me or my growing practices...

As I can say as well. Would you like that information I offered? It is known to cause resistance in PM fungi.

Never mind, I'm going to hit everyone with the truth of my words.

First, the label on E20 (which anyone would see *if* they've read it, since I have a bottle I went and typed it up from that):

General Use Precautions

Fungicide Resistance Management

Eagle 20EW belongs to the sterol demethylation inhibitor (DMI) class of fungicides and is classified as a Group 3 Fungicide by EPA. Since certain fungi can develop resistance to this class of products, the use of Eagle 20EW should be part of a resistance management strategy that includes alternation and/or tank mixing with fungicides of different modes of action. Consult your local or state agricultural authorities for resistance management strategies that are appropriate for your disease management program.

Then, an article (specific to cucurbits, applicable across the spectrum).
http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/NewsArticles/Cuc_Cntct_Fcides.htm

Protectant (contact) fungicides are an important component of the fungicide program recommended for managing powdery mildew in cucurbits. They play a critical role in delayingdevelopment of resistance to systemic fungicides. The fungus causing cucurbit powdery mildew has an established track record worldwide of being able to develop resistance to systemic fungicides. Most systemic fungicides are at risk for resistance development because they have single-site mode of action. Thus modification of one gene in the pathogen may be enough to enable the pathogen to resist the action of the fungicide. Most protectant fungicides are not at risk for resistance development because they have multi-site mode of action. Their role in resistance management is to control both sensitive and resistant strains thereby reducing the overall size of the pathogen population subjected to the resistance-selecting action of the systemic fungicides. Systemic fungicides are essential for managing powdery mildew on the underside of leaves (Figure 1) to avoid premature death of leaves (Figure 2). Therefore, managing resistance to prolong the utility of systemic fungicides is very important. It is important to recognize that the goal of resistance management is to delay development of resistance rather than to manage resistant strains; therefore, resistance management should always be a component of powdery mildew management. For more information, see the on-line articles on resistance.

The integrated program currently recommended for managing powdery mildew includes nonchemical control measures plus a fungicide program with both systemic and protectant fungicides. Nonchemical control measures include selecting resistant varieties and separating successive plantings. These are important for managing fungicide resistance because they reduce the overall size of the pathogen population and because fewer applications of systemic fungicides may be needed for control, thereby reducing selection pressure for resistance. Further reduction can be achieved by using systemic fungicides only when needed and not curatively; this can be accomplished by scouting to ensure applications are started very early in powdery mildew development. Additionally, protectant fungicides alone may be sufficient for the last applications late in the growing season. The fungicide program should consist of an alternation among systemic fungicides with different modes of action (eg a QoI, aka strobilurin, fungicide, Quadris or Flint, alternated with the DMI fungicide Nova) and mixing these with protectant fungicides. When new systemic fungicides are registered, they should be added to the program or used in place of other systemics whose efficacy has been reduced due to resistance.

So here you are telling people E20 is the end-all, be-all answer to ALL powdery mildew problems, and here I am telling people it's only a matter of time. I admit, to my chagrin, that I've used it, and won't use it again. It's just not part of an approved organic program, for one thing, and isn't making much sense given everything else that goes on in this world for the other.

 

[One Love 731]

Krunch is only tryin to help. If ya want the one two punch (I always do) try Sovran and Eagle20. Mites, Floramite (I know, bad shit) and Forbid. I use nothing in flower and always give a plant plenty of time to work through whatever I give them before flower. I try to fix a problem the first time I see it due to the perpetual nature of my garden. Thanks for everything Krunch. 1

 

[Burning Tree]

As I can say as well. Would you like that information I offered? It is known to cause resistance in PM fungi.

Never mind, I'm going to hit everyone with the truth of my words.

First, the label on E20 (which anyone would see *if* they've read it, since I have a bottle I went and typed it up from that):

General Use Precautions

Fungicide Resistance Management

Eagle 20EW belongs to the sterol demethylation inhibitor (DMI) class of fungicides and is classified as a Group 3 Fungicide by EPA. Since certain fungi can develop resistance to this class of products, the use of Eagle 20EW should be part of a resistance management strategy that includes alternation and/or tank mixing with fungicides of different modes of action. Consult your local or state agricultural authorities for resistance management strategies that are appropriate for your disease management program.

Then, an article (specific to cucurbits, applicable across the spectrum).
http://vegetablemdonline.ppath.cornell.edu/NewsArticles/Cuc_Cntct_Fcides.htm



So here you are telling people E20 is the end-all, be-all answer to ALL powdery mildew problems, and here I am telling people it's only a matter of time. I admit, to my chagrin, that I've used it, and won't use it again. It's just not part of an approved organic program, for one thing, and isn't making much sense given everything else that goes on in this world for the other.

PM could possibly develop a resistance to E20 in an enclosed grow room environment only if it was not completely eradicated from the environment with the first use and repeated applications are used. The same strain of the species would have to survive the application and instill the resistance in subsequent generations. PM is generally reintroduced into a growroom from a different source each time therefore a different organism each time. If clones are coming from the same source each time and E20 is used by the provider improperly then the risk would be magnified.

Outdoors it is impossible to completely eradicate the pathogen because there is no way to contain it such as in a sealed grow environment and prevent re exposure. This is where resistance management is important as the plants will be re-exposed outdoors, guaranteed. In an enclosed environment it is possible with due diligence and proper use of all the tools available to completely eradicate the organism and remaining conidia present in the environment. PM conidia(asexual spores) can only persist in the environment for a max of 5 weeks without a viable plant house to germinate on. Ascospores(sexual spores) can persist much longer and are much harder to eradicate but these will not be generated in an indoor environment as the organism will never see the environmental conditions needed to trigger such reproduction as these spores are meant to over winter the organism until more favorable conditions arise. Therefore making the plants immune via E20 for ~40-60 days and a very thorough cleansing of the environment is all it usually takes.

I personally had a 1.5 year bout with PM and went through all the motions. I was a slave to spraying. Greencure, SM90, Silica, Kelp, Oxidate, Peroxide, Sulfer, serenade whichever once a week or more. I applied E20 once to mother stock and all veg stock about to enter the bloom room. After the last infected plants were pulled out of the bloom room there was a good douching of the facility with bleach and physan. I only made that one application and have been PM free for just over a year now.

My $.02

 

[krunchbubble]

So here you are telling people E20 is the end-all, be-all answer to ALL powdery mildew problems, and here I am telling people it's only a matter of time.

Its exactly what im saying...

1500+ posts, and not ONE person can say that Eagle20 DIDN'T completely eradicate PM...

You assume to much and really, you dont have a clue in this big boy world, your a small shit....

Trying to come in here an spread your organic bullshit only stirs the pot for more people to show YOU that it worked, and worked exactly as it should....

So fucking ignorant. Instead of reading about it, listen to people who used it.....

 

[MtnLivin]

I've said it before and I will say it again.. I fought PM for over a year trying EVERY SINGLE natural and "safe" way of eradication. Guess what? They all FAILED. I said fuck it and grabbed a bottle of E20. Guess what? have not seen PM in over two years.

 

[YosemiteSam]

YOU have never used Eagle20...

And there HAS NOT been ONE case in this entire thread, pertaining to any resistance at all, including ME who have been using this longer then anyone here....

Fucking sideline speculation bullshit....

Stick to your bandaids and half ass cures, but keep it out of here...

so do you use it every grow or not...kinda confused as you seem to go back and forth on that. if you don't use it every grow you can't say from personal experience whether tolerance is an issue or not.

 

[Kcar]

Its exactly what im saying...

1500+ posts, and not ONE person can say that Eagle20 DIDN'T completely eradicate PM...

You assume to much and really, you dont have a clue in this big boy world, your a small shit....

Trying to come in here an spread your organic bullshit only stirs the pot for more people to show YOU that it worked, and worked exactly as it should....

So fucking ignorant. Instead of reading about it, listen to people who used it.....

Ya know, Krunch, your really coming off like a big bully. This is, after all, a public forum. If you don't like what others have to say,
you are really quick with the 'Fuck off's and 'get the hell out of my thread'.
Do you talk to your mother like that?
That's pretty lame. I thought you were a bigger man.

 

[oceangrownkush]

When I mentioned E20 at the grow shop the dude told me it lasts for like years in a plant, and isn't safe for consumption. Now if thats bullshit it wouldn't be the very first time he's told me some straight BS, dude recommended some really bullshit spray for Botrytis this year.. Didn't do shit.

So how long does E20 last?

 

[komodod]

i always heard there was cyanide etc in smoke so doesnt it contain worse than eagle 20 anyway?

i like eagle 20 as a one off application. i guess if your growing organic dont use it. if you dont mind then use it.

 

[SeaMaiden]

Burning Tree, I think it's actually more likely that the variety or species of PM that's brought into a grow room may already be resistant. I personally don't think that there are quite enough cannabis growers using this stuff for cannabis growers to be fully responsible for incidents of resistance.

However, I'm certain that the precautions would apply to greenhouse growing, and that's pretty close to indoor cultivation. Also, there are plenty of growers using it outside. Drift...? It's why I won't use OxiDate outdoors--I cannot control drift well enough.

Its exactly what im saying...

1500+ posts, and not ONE person can say that Eagle20 DIDN'T completely eradicate PM...

You assume to much and really, you dont have a clue in this big boy world, your a small shit....

Trying to come in here an spread your organic bullshit only stirs the pot for more people to show YOU that it worked, and worked exactly as it should....

So fucking ignorant. Instead of reading about it, listen to people who used it.....

I've already observed it not completely eliminating PM, and I've read of at least two others on this board who've said the same thing. You must have missed those posts, but that's what labels and literature are for.

Are you capable of communicating without going on the attack, btw? You're being an absolute dick to me about this, and I'm not attacking you, I'm presenting facts. Facts that are there in the public sphere, available for anyone who will be bothered to just read them.

You insisted I was spouting BS when I made my previous assertion, so I backed my shit up. Now you're pissed off at me because I backed my shit up and it doesn't jive with what you're pushing. Never ONCE have I made a judgement about you or anyone else who uses this 'stuff', but I have my opinions.

 

[Granger2]

> you dont have a clue in this big boy world, your
> a small shit....

Just a reminder-Some of the best bud on the planet is grown by small growers, and growers who keep it organic. Some of the most expert growers are small growers. -granger

 

[vertigo0007]

Facts? Since when are 2 peope mentioning it on a pot board and a bottle label fact? Ive got plenty of bottles that make all kinds of claims and they are in no way factual. Dont you think thats why people are here in the first place? Millions of dollars wasted on organic bullshit proves youre wrong. since you know all about how it went down can u prove that the 2 mentioners on this board actually used the product correctly or didnt get it in a tiny resale bottle that was watered down.


Btw, do you try to preach your shit to chimera for using meltatox??

Burning Tree, I think it's actually more likely that the variety or species of PM that's brought into a grow room may already be resistant. I personally don't think that there are quite enough cannabis growers using this stuff for cannabis growers to be fully responsible for incidents of resistance.

However, I'm certain that the precautions would apply to greenhouse growing, and that's pretty close to indoor cultivation. Also, there are plenty of growers using it outside. Drift...? It's why I won't use OxiDate outdoors--I cannot control drift well enough.

I've already observed it not completely eliminating PM, and I've read of at least two others on this board who've said the same thing. You must have missed those posts, but that's what labels and literature are for.

Are you capable of communicating without going on the attack, btw? You're being an absolute dick to me about this, and I'm not attacking you, I'm presenting facts. Facts that are there in the public sphere, available for anyone who will be bothered to just read them.

You insisted I was spouting BS when I made my previous assertion, so I backed my shit up. Now you're pissed off at me because I backed my shit up and it doesn't jive with what you're pushing. Never ONCE have I made a judgement about you or anyone else who uses this 'stuff', but I have my opinions.

 

[Chimera]

Haven't read the whole thread, but PM has definitely been shown to develop a resistance to the active ingredient of Eagle20 Myclobutanil in other crops, feel free to google "PM resistance Myclobutanil" and you'll see some papers on the subject.

SeaMaiden is correct in saying that nature develops resistance to biocides of all types, it's an evolutionary response by the species under attack to adapt and avoid extinction, and it has been seen across every fungicide/miticide/insecticide known to man. It's akin to antibiotic resistance, which is why your doctor will tell you to complete the cycle/course of antibiotics you are prescribed - even after you are feeling better; they want to ensure that the bacteria that is infecting you, are all killed and some don't survive that may have a genetic resistance, which can spawn a whole generation of resistant individuals.

It's part of a responsible IPM program to rotate your treatment chemical, and always make sure to follow the label instructions and give a proper dose of the chemical that wil actually kill the organisms affecting your crop. None of us want the chemicals we are using to stop working, it defeats the point.

We have a mite in BC that is known as the BC nuclear mite... you spray the bastards down with Avid and they don't even flinch, they are so big and fat and just kind of look up at you and say 'are you done yet?' and get back to sucking the juices from your leaves. Avid used to knock them down perfectly years ago, but so many growers buying Avid under the counter at hydro shops and partially or improperly spraying their crops led to a subset of the mites to develop a resistance to the chemical, and now Avid is like water to them; they just shrug it off and keep on truckin'. However if you use a combination of floramite and then a few days later Avid, and repeat the cycle a few times, you can actually get rid of them all.

This is why in Canada at least, you are supposed to have a license to buy many of these chemicals, because their careless use by people who don't understand how to properly use them can make them inneffective against their intended targets over time. To get your license, you need to pass a test that is in place to make sure you understand how to use the chemical properly, to avoid speeding up the process of resistance.

Whatever you are using be it Eagle20 or Meltatox or other, please just be sure you understand the lifecycle of the pest, and how to preperly use the chemical; that way no resistance will develop and we'll all be able to knock down these pests when they do show up.

Respectfully,
-Chimera

 

[Dkgrower]

@Chimera in europa and i dont get it, u can get it at your local feedstore if u look around alittel or ask

There are many agricultural products that stop mildew, Amistar is very popular if some 1 is looking into finding a european brand.

It is also sold under many other names.

Also u really want to apply products in a correct manner i ruined a hole greenhouse crop (got mildew infection) because off wrong mixing ratio.

 

[SeaMaiden]

This is why in Canada at least, you are supposed to have a license to buy many of these chemicals, because their careless use by people who don't understand how to properly use them can make them inneffective against their intended targets over time. To get your license, you need to pass a test that is in place to make sure you understand how to use the chemical properly, to avoid speeding up the process of resistance.

Whatever you are using be it Eagle20 or Meltatox or other, please just be sure you understand the lifecycle of the pest, and how to preperly use the chemical; that way no resistance will develop and we'll all be able to knock down these pests when they do show up.

Respectfully,
-Chimera

Chimera, thank you for chiming in. I'd like to snip the portions I would like to answer to the best of my knowledge.

In California the aforementioned products are strictly controlled. I know many people are easily able to purchase them through a hydroponics shop without having to present a pesticide ID#. In those cases, those sales are illegal. In fact, selling a perfectly safe (for you and the environment) product such as Surround, which is nothing more than micronized kaolin clay, to someone without recording their current pesticide ID# is illegal even though no special use permit is required.

Furthermore, the restricted products, those that require a special use permit (which requires specific training to acquire) that folks are talking about using may or may not be the version that's been approved for use on consumables. There are at least two versions of E20, for example, one is meant for use primarily on turf grass (not forage or pasture) and ornamentals, whereas another version is approved for use on consumables such as GH tomatoes.

That doesn't begin to address the issue of approved crops, but I'll use quinoa as the example here--there are NO 'cides' approved in the US for use on quinoa. None whatsoever. So if you grow quinoa that you plan to sell to the public and have a pest or PM problem, there is no manufactured 'cide' that is approved for its use. You can use it, but you can't legally sell that quinoa to the public. How'd I learn this? By trying to add quinoa to the list of crops I submit to the county ag department each year when I apply for my pesticide ID#.

Not one thing is approved for use on cannabis. Not one. I have found many products approved for use on hemp, but I'm not growing hemp and even if I were, it's unlikely I would try to smoke it.

While I do have my pesticide ID#, I do not have a restricted use permit. It was when I entered into the organic food cultivation foray that I began to get my head wrapped around this stuff and why it is this way, and when people become sick from foods they've purchased at the supermarket, then we begin to understand why the government bureaucracies behave as they do.
To me it reads as one part paper trail:2 parts safety.

Seeing as how many of those posting here are either medical patients OR are selling "meds" to medical patients, I personally believe there should be a higher standard we hold ourselves to than this. Also, since I *still* can't find a single case of death or illness caused by powdery mildew, I'll take a little PM if I see it over using something with napthalene and other toxic, noxious carriers any time I possibly can.

 

[Space Case]

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SeaMaiden again.

 

[Frozenguy]

we're still having this talk?

It's really bad to spray stuff on plants you're smoking.

smoking and eating are two tottaly different things.

You cannot look at application rates and systemic holding rates in terms of eating limits.

This is smoking.


Spraying stuff on the plants for PM and bugs is bad, and just a cover up for a flaw in one's growing ability.

Learn to grow clean, get some good genetics.

Patients don't deserve this, they deserve clean buds.

This heavily unregulated weed market can be detrimental on peoples health especially when people start playing professions they aren't and making guesses people go to school for years to figure out.


I beg you to seek out a solution to your problem instead of sprays.

Your plants will grow better, and you'll get more bang and more $$ and happier customers..