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The traitor within?

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theJointedOne

Active member
Veteran
Sleepy Hollow, an absurdly entertaining new show recasting Ichabod Crane as a time-traveling Revolutionary War hero who fights evil with George Washington's Bible, took some time near the end of its first season to address gun rights.

"Crane, remind me to later have a chat about what your founding friends were thinking when they crafted our rights to bear arms," police lieutenant Abbie Mills tells the aforementioned Ichabod.

"There was concern among us that it could lead to perverse consequences," he concedes.

Did it ever. About 32,000 Americans are killed each year using guns (murder or suicide), and a mountain evidence makes it increasingly clear that the wide availability of firearms in the United States bears a great deal of blame.

There is no longer any defensible argument for a constitutional right to own a firearm, if there ever was.

Let's bracket the notoriously confusing text of the Second Amendment, and pretend we were writing the thing from scratch. Why would you want a gun rights proviso? I can think of three reasons, broadly speaking.

1. Guns protect liberty. Citizens have the right to rebel against a tyrannical government, and they need guns to do that.

2. Citizens have a right to defend themselves however they'd like. Gun rights enable self-defense and, thus, save lives.

3. People enjoy guns, and millions of reasonable gun owners shouldn't be deprived of something they love because other people abuse it.

Each of these arguments depends on indefensible factual and/or moral assumptions. I'll take them in turn.

The "right to rebel" argument assumes that armed revolt is the last option available if the American government ever goes Full Weimar. Not only has that never happened in a consolidated democracy like the United States, but that kind of paranoid thinking is itself profoundly corrosive of democratic politics.

What's more, it's wrong. Political scientists Erica Chenoweth and Maria Stephan's book Why Civil Resistance Works puts together compelling statistical evidence that non-violent protest is more likely to attract mass participation and topple governments than its armed twin, especially in the modern era. Protecting gun ownership, it turns out, is a terrible way to facilitate rebellions against the state. That goes double when the weapons protected are handguns rather than automatic rifles, RPGs, and anti-aircraft batteries.

The second argument in favor of untrammeled gun ownership, a right to self-defense, is equally incoherent. For starters, there's no reason that, in a civil society, the right to defend yourself implies the right to defend yourself however you'd like. A basic part of government's job is to limit our ability to hurt others; assuming the absolute right to self-defense constitutes, in Alan Jacobs' evocative phrasing, "the absolute abandonment of civil society."

And indeed, the evidence is very clear that a government that fails to adequately regulate guns is failing in its duty to protect its citizens. A recent study found that, after Missouri repealed its background check law, the murder rate spiked by 16 percent; the researchers tracked many of the killings back to newly purchased guns. Conservative writer Robert VerBruggen double-checked the data, and concluded that "the state's murder rate indeed soared the year after a gun law changed, and there's no other obvious explanation."

It's not just that background checks save lives, however: Guns take them. Contrary to what you may have heard, there just isn't that much scientific controversy about whether easy access to guns helps more than it hurts. Two recent, methodologically rigorous studies confirmed that high levels of gun ownership lead to both more murders and more suicides. A recent survey of the best research on guns confirmed that those two studies spoke for the consensus of gun researchers.

So there's one argument left: the idea that because people deeply enjoy firearms and gun culture, it's wrong for the federal government to restrict it. This is easily the most serious of the three arguments. There's more than a whiff of disdain for "rifle-toting rubes" in the anti-gun argument, and it's terribly immoral to use the power of the government to restrict people's rights merely because you find their subculture unpleasant.

Still, this isn't nearly good enough to defend a constitutional right to gun ownership. The rights you protect in a constitution — rights to free speech and against arbitrary discrimination, for instance — are fundamental rights, to be protected absolutely. They deserve that status because they are so essential to the functioning of a democracy that no majority should be permitted to override them.

Gun rights don't rise to that status. The basic principle of a liberal democracy is that, for laws to be legitimate, majorities must enact them. Setting aside the basic rights protections necessary for majority rule to function fairly, any other determinations about the scope of lesser rights should be set by Congress and state legislatures. Gun rights, then, shouldn't be constitutionally protected.

Instead, they should be regulated like another dangerous thing many Americans enjoy: drugs. People who deeply enjoy alcohol, marijuana, and other drugs should be free to use them — drug prohibition is monstrously illiberal. But that doesn't mean that they should be able to get wasted while driving, on the job, or when underage.

Likewise, the fact that there's a liberty interest in allowing gun ownership doesn't mean guns should be easy to get. Background checks are a no-brainer, but beyond that, it should be much harder to purchase guns and the penalties for abusing them should be much more serious. For instance, Japan's onerous gun regulations have almost wiped out gun crime. Many of these rules, like requiring that gun owners regularly undertake the equivalent of a driver's test for guns, can be borrowed without imposing a full handgun ban.

"Having a gun now is like having a time bomb," one Yakuza (Japanese mafia) boss told The Japan Times' Jake Adelstein. "Do you think any sane person wants to keep one around the house?"

Our Yakuza don is, much like Ichabod Crane, an unexpected source of wisdom. While it's probably impossible to eliminate the Second Amendment today, and not worth the resources it would take to find out, one thing is clear: The Founding Fathers of the Sleepy Hollow universe were right to worry. There are thousands of "perverse consequences" every year that vindicate their hesitation.
 

theJointedOne

Active member
Veteran
From after Vegas - Fifty-eight dead, nearly 500 injured, but our national debate will come through unscathed.

Like so many before it, the mass shooting in Las Vegas has resolved into a set piece between gun-rights advocates and gun-control advocates, yielding no fundamental change. Bump stocks may get banned, but that's as far as things will go, because in America, discussion ends with the 2nd Amendment.

Worse, the 2nd Amendment ends discussion. The other day, I heard an expert close a debate by shouting, "Too bad, it's in the Constitution!" That really is too bad, because the Constitution is getting in the way of the conversation. There's a lot to debate about guns and law. Do guns guard against tyranny? Do you support background checks? Do you like to hunt? There are good reasons to limit guns, and to have them. But the 2nd Amendment isn't one of those reasons.

Sensible people disagree about what the 2nd Amendment means. Perhaps it ensures an individual right, forbidding restrictions on "constitutional carry." Perhaps it refers only to militias, and therefore authorizes regulation. But everyone agrees that the 2nd Amendment was an amendment — a change to the Constitution
 

CaptainDankness

Well-known member
Fact: without the Russian army fighting the Germans, we'd not have won.

Not exactly a fact, we might have nuked Berlin, many other things could have happened. Also the Russians were invaded so they weren't really trying to do us a favor, more like "the enemy of my enemy is a friend."
 
Sleepy Hollow, an absurdly entertaining new show recasting Ichabod Crane as a time-traveling Revolutionary War hero who fights evil with George Washington's Bible, took some time near the end of its first season to address gun rights.

"Crane, remind me to later have a chat about what your founding friends were thinking when they crafted our rights to bear arms," police lieutenant Abbie Mills tells the aforementioned Ichabod.

"There was concern among us that it could lead to perverse consequences," he concedes.

Did it ever. About 32,000 Americans are killed each year using guns (murder or suicide), and a mountain evidence makes it increasingly clear that the wide availability of firearms in the United States bears a great deal of blame.

There is no longer any defensible argument for a constitutional right to own a firearm, if there ever was.

Let's bracket the notoriously confusing text of the Second Amendment, and pretend we were writing the thing from scratch. Why would you want a gun rights proviso? I can think of three reasons, broadly speaking.

1. Guns protect liberty. Citizens have the right to rebel against a tyrannical government, and they need guns to do that.

2. Citizens have a right to defend themselves however they'd like. Gun rights enable self-defense and, thus, save lives.

3. People enjoy guns, and millions of reasonable gun owners shouldn't be deprived of something they love because other people abuse it.

Each of these arguments depends on indefensible factual and/or moral assumptions. I'll take them in turn.

The "right to rebel" argument assumes that armed revolt is the last option available if the American government ever goes Full Weimar. Not only has that never happened in a consolidated democracy like the United States, but that kind of paranoid thinking is itself profoundly corrosive of democratic politics.

What's more, it's wrong. Political scientists Erica Chenoweth and Maria Stephan's book Why Civil Resistance Works puts together compelling statistical evidence that non-violent protest is more likely to attract mass participation and topple governments than its armed twin, especially in the modern era. Protecting gun ownership, it turns out, is a terrible way to facilitate rebellions against the state. That goes double when the weapons protected are handguns rather than automatic rifles, RPGs, and anti-aircraft batteries.

The second argument in favor of untrammeled gun ownership, a right to self-defense, is equally incoherent. For starters, there's no reason that, in a civil society, the right to defend yourself implies the right to defend yourself however you'd like. A basic part of government's job is to limit our ability to hurt others; assuming the absolute right to self-defense constitutes, in Alan Jacobs' evocative phrasing, "the absolute abandonment of civil society."

And indeed, the evidence is very clear that a government that fails to adequately regulate guns is failing in its duty to protect its citizens. A recent study found that, after Missouri repealed its background check law, the murder rate spiked by 16 percent; the researchers tracked many of the killings back to newly purchased guns. Conservative writer Robert VerBruggen double-checked the data, and concluded that "the state's murder rate indeed soared the year after a gun law changed, and there's no other obvious explanation."

It's not just that background checks save lives, however: Guns take them. Contrary to what you may have heard, there just isn't that much scientific controversy about whether easy access to guns helps more than it hurts. Two recent, methodologically rigorous studies confirmed that high levels of gun ownership lead to both more murders and more suicides. A recent survey of the best research on guns confirmed that those two studies spoke for the consensus of gun researchers.

So there's one argument left: the idea that because people deeply enjoy firearms and gun culture, it's wrong for the federal government to restrict it. This is easily the most serious of the three arguments. There's more than a whiff of disdain for "rifle-toting rubes" in the anti-gun argument, and it's terribly immoral to use the power of the government to restrict people's rights merely because you find their subculture unpleasant.

Still, this isn't nearly good enough to defend a constitutional right to gun ownership. The rights you protect in a constitution — rights to free speech and against arbitrary discrimination, for instance — are fundamental rights, to be protected absolutely. They deserve that status because they are so essential to the functioning of a democracy that no majority should be permitted to override them.

Gun rights don't rise to that status. The basic principle of a liberal democracy is that, for laws to be legitimate, majorities must enact them. Setting aside the basic rights protections necessary for majority rule to function fairly, any other determinations about the scope of lesser rights should be set by Congress and state legislatures. Gun rights, then, shouldn't be constitutionally protected.

Instead, they should be regulated like another dangerous thing many Americans enjoy: drugs. People who deeply enjoy alcohol, marijuana, and other drugs should be free to use them — drug prohibition is monstrously illiberal. But that doesn't mean that they should be able to get wasted while driving, on the job, or when underage.

Likewise, the fact that there's a liberty interest in allowing gun ownership doesn't mean guns should be easy to get. Background checks are a no-brainer, but beyond that, it should be much harder to purchase guns and the penalties for abusing them should be much more serious. For instance, Japan's onerous gun regulations have almost wiped out gun crime. Many of these rules, like requiring that gun owners regularly undertake the equivalent of a driver's test for guns, can be borrowed without imposing a full handgun ban.

"Having a gun now is like having a time bomb," one Yakuza (Japanese mafia) boss told The Japan Times' Jake Adelstein. "Do you think any sane person wants to keep one around the house?"

Our Yakuza don is, much like Ichabod Crane, an unexpected source of wisdom. While it's probably impossible to eliminate the Second Amendment today, and not worth the resources it would take to find out, one thing is clear: The Founding Fathers of the Sleepy Hollow universe were right to worry. There are thousands of "perverse consequences" every year that vindicate their hesitation.

Possibly the most ignorant view on guns I have ever seen...... :tiphat::tiphat: Where did you copy and paste that from? No sources?


Edit: Never mind. https://theweek.com/articles/450519/ban-second-amendment no wonder is sounded so ignorant. BTW, when people copy and paste pages of other peoples words, they usually use quotes and page source information....... otherwise is plagiarism.
 

theJointedOne

Active member
Veteran
But everyone agrees that the 2nd Amendment was an amendment — a change to the Constitution

It's really hard to read what you lay down..... The second amendment was part of the bill of rights, and the original laws of the land. Pick up a history book before you say stuff like this...... It's appalling.
 

pinkus

Well-known member
Veteran
Not exactly a fact, we might have nuked Berlin, many other things could have happened. Also the Russians were invaded so they weren't really trying to do us a favor, more like "the enemy of my enemy is a friend."

We were all required to work with each other. We got invaded too, remember? In fact we as a nation would have been happy to sit it out the whole conflict, depending on which threads of history you want to emphasize.
 
W

Water-

I never said we won every war we've been a part of. Nobody has defeated America at home, we have never been successfully invaded. We could have won Vietnam but it wasn't worth the trouble, they didn't win either because they didn't follow us home and conquer our homeland. Same can be said about North Korea and the Philippines sure we didn't win, but did we really lose? I don't think so because we still have the US Constitution.

Tell me who has succesfully invaded or conquered the USA since 1776?

Israel
 

bigtacofarmer

Well-known member
Veteran
In
Nestle, Pepsi, Bp, Bayer, China (amazon/walmart) and so on. Not to mention in under 100 years they turned 75% of population into service employees or telephone operator's. How bout our water. Has that been poisoned?

We been so invaded I feel violated just thinking about it.
 
In
Nestle, Pepsi, Bp, Bayer, China (amazon/walmart) and so on. Not to mention in under 100 years they turned 75% of population into service employees or telephone operator's. How bout our water. Has that been poisoned?

We been so invaded I feel violated just thinking about it.
:laughing:
So by your definition, every country in the world that serves or provides Nestle, Pepsi, Bp, Bayer, Amazon have been invaded? Crap, the whole world is being invaded.......lol.

No, the answer is, no country has invaded the USA since 1776. Come on people......

I am sure if you attacked Pepsi at their headquarters and said they invaded your home when your wife brought home the groceries, I think you might be in trouble......
 

packerfan79

Active member
Veteran
It's really hard to read what you lay down..... The second amendment was part of the bill of rights, and the original laws of the land. Pick up a history book before you say stuff like this...... It's appalling.

While yes it is an ammendment, it's not actually altering the constitution. The bill of Rights ammendment 1-10 were clearly a planned addition. Some of the founders didn't think it was necessary. They never imagined that half the nation would demand that their rights should be taken away. Yet here we are millions of Americans don't believe we have the right to arms, private property, illegal search and seizure, free speech and religion. It's almost funny if it wasn't so terrifying that citizens demand to be treated as subjects, so they can ask the government to take away the people's rights they disagree with.

Fortunately they as a group realized the tyranny is the inevitable outcome of government. To prevent tyranny, a bill of individual rights would be a strong deterrent.
 

theJointedOne

Active member
Veteran
It's really hard to read what you lay down..... The second amendment was part of the bill of rights, and the original laws of the land. Pick up a history book before you say stuff like this...... It's appalling.

dude its a fkin article, i didnt write it..you found one sentence and them boom..

im done with your click bait instigating trump tactics

peace man ill see you at the events like i always do and you can be the same nice guy you are, the opposite of what you are online..seriously black and white..dont expect a handshake this time though, or free seeds and a smile
 
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