The OBBT Grow Show!

[rrog]

Surfer I'll be starting to cook the medium in mid Sept. Building sound isolation box for air pump, building the buckets themselves. (Built a test bucket and will be going with Uniseals)

QUICK QUESTION:

Cant find Bloom Burst 10-52-10 . I already have Fat Flower 0-50-30 . Would that work? Thanks

EDIT: It appears that Expert Gardener has sold / changed to the Schultz brand. That product is now Schultz Bloom Plus Plant Food, 10-54-10. Seems to be the same.

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

I dont know anything really about US nutes but that sounds good for flowering. You do need a bit of N up until week 5 or 6... i use fish emulsion myself and sometimes a bit of urine to give a N boost. I also supplement with high quality mineral ferts.

 

[ripman]

Hey guys,

question for you: could grow bags like these work as containers for an OBBT?
Or do you think there is no way that the exit plumbing can be made without impairing the impermeability of the product?
Using growbags could make the "pots" more flexible and allow me to more effectively use the space of my grow room, wouldn't be bad stuff at all! Plus, they are cheap!!!

EDIT: I see now they have drainage holes at the bottom, they could work though if used inside a container where water would be provided, making the bottom level of the OBBT more similar to a DWC-Multiflow project... I'm now considering trying this system

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

Not sure about the bags Ripman but sound good...

Thanks for the link though!!! Just ordered their 8oz mychorz granules... YAY!!! Paypal checkout. Love it.

 

[LadyLargely]

Hey there cowboys!

Sorry for the long absence! A combination of business and a lack of awesome from my grow have kept me away for a whole week! Glad to see the thread staying active though.

Some truly lovely grow pics gentlemen!

Citizen024

Hah, I don't mind when the pics are as nice as those! What a rig! I see now why you want to develop the OBBTs into a table method. Very frosty and super-dense nugs, they do look tasty. Now maybe its because there is nothing in the pictures to set the scale, but I gotta say I'm not terribly impressed with the size of them. With tables like that I assume you're running 1000 watt hortilux? If thats the case then tsk tsk, I expected better of you buddy!

Hehe, just being a meanie! Those buds are of pretty good size considering how small the plants themselves are. By the looks of it I bet your grams-per-watt ratio is badass. I'm just amused by the fact that your nugs look roughly the same size as my last batch which ran under a pittance of lighting compared to what you've got. Though I'd bet density-wise I'm not even in the same league!

RVW my hat goes off to you for that bitchin vertical setup! I have always been a fan of compact grows and pride myself on being a bit of an expert on them. I wouldn't usually use the terms "compact" and "motherfuckin 1000 watt HPS" when describing the same grow, but you have pulled it off amazingly! Major props sir.

Silver_Surfer lovely lovely colas my good man! I love screen-training. That said, I would call what you are doing "screen-training" and not "ScrOG". The flat-grow method you use seems to be all I see anymore. Doing a truly 'woven' horizontal grow seems to be a bit of a lost art. You and I are both running horizontal grows but as mine gets into flower it will become apparent just what a huge difference there is between what you do and what I consider 'true ScrOG'.

Not that I'm criticizing. My method is way, way more work. Forgoing all of that crap you have achieved spectacular nuggies all the same. Well done!

Some things have changed. You may remember me struggling to set a sprout in tub #2. I finally had success with DM # 4, but by that time it was at a massive time disadvantage. So I went to plan B. I ditched DM #4. Don't worry, she lives on at a different location. Luck would have it that a gardening buddy of mine had started a veg cycle just 10 days before I had. He had a nice batch of good-looking plants, but he fucked up on nutrients and accidentally had one plant which got no nutrients at all! She was the runt of the litter by a long shot. One of the yellowest live plants I've ever seen. I slapped her down in tub #2 and after deliberating for a day or two she greened right up and shot off in hot pursuit of my other 4 plants.



She's been designated as MW#1 Mutt Weed Let's see what she does!

Things have really started heating up for my 4 original plants. Let's see how they look:



Woa! Viva la difference! They have much more than doubled in size over this last week.

Right, so what's going on here?

Well, they are bushing like mad, look:



Stem of WW#1, it is a thing of beauty! The rapidly increasing stem diameter has done little to stop the nodes from being crazy-tight. WW #1 is chugging away on nodes 7 and 8 and has just pased the 2 inch mark. So far I've managed to sustain the 4 nodes per inch I had in the beginning.

I started using my veg spray this past Wednesday. It has made a big difference. The plants are becoming fabulously complex:



Yep, that there is what I refer to as compounding!

What you see there is one of the biggest offshoots from WW#1, it comes up right from the bottom. In fact this is the same shoot that I was excitedly showing you guys just starting to emerge in my last picture post. Even though it is a young shoot coming from the bottom of the plant it is starting to form offshoots of its own! From its very first node! I don't usually see this until a week from now in the scedule and I've seen pleanty of growers here on the site who have never produced this phenomenon. Seeing it happen this early fills me with hope for this grow. The furious compounding will really pay dividends when it comes time to fill my screen

Sadly, as exciting as the early compounding is its a bit too early, and the pictured offshoots where promptly removed. They are just too far down on the plant to ever be productive. Thats OK though because new ones are forming in the upper nodes which will be high enough to stay for the long haul!

Aside from the compounding my veg spray has really spurred some furious development. The plants are just wadding up with new growth and its been getting out of hand. Which brings us to:

Today's Lesson!

Leaf Training

Early on in veg the plants begin to 'wad up'. They get covered in new shoots. The bummer is at the same time they really begin to baloon the main fan leaves. These bastards get in the way and slow down development of the new shoots. Left unattended this can drastically reduce potential yield. We combat it with something I call Leaf Training.

It is simply the practice of supercropping the leaf stems and then folding the whole thing down under lower leaves and foliage. This allows the new nodes to get some direct light so they can stretch to the surface. Supercropping the shit out of the main stem helps here too. It means the new shoots have a much shorter distance to get as tall as the rest of the plant (which is just what we want).

Other than this description its tough to explain, so I've made some before and after shots. Sadly I forgot to shoot a 'before' for WW#1, so you'll just have to reference the group image at the top of this post to compare.

WW#1 after training.

Its a bit of a mess but you should be able to see all of the new shoots getting direct light.



Sheerah! before and after



Dutch Mystery #2 before and after



White Widow #2 before and after.

It really isn't complicated and makes a big difference in the number of top colas you get on the finished plant. When under floro lamps like me this technique is pretty much a necessity if you want a yield to be proud of.

Don't be shy, you would be amazed at what the leaf stems will take. Look:

A perfectly healthy fan-leaf on Sheerah! Nothing wrong here right?



Gah! Oh god no! Haha. This is the stem from that leaf, looks wasted right? Well I'll tell ya: it's been that way for 5 days. This gaping hole has done nothing to slow the growth and development of the leaf. It is just as big and green as it's twin that share's the node with it. Do not be afraid to bring some serious pain down on the fan leaves.

And I've had to do just that. Sheerah! and the White Widows have been bushing wonderfully. Hell, the widows love it, I swear they have a genetic predisposition to bushing. Dutch Mystery #2 on the hand has been a kunt! She wants to be a tree, not a fuckin bush! I've had a bastard of a time getting her to bush out. So much so that I've had to raise the lights on her side to induce some streching from the offshoots. Her fan-leaves are so big and thick and dark and her offshoots are so tiny and reluctant to grow that its been a serious battle. Whatever this plant is it just wants to be a crown and nothing else. These genes would work amazingly in a classic 'budsicle' style SOG grow.

Sadly, that's not what I'm doing! I'm starting to make headway though, finally. Luckily she's a tough plant with thick hempy stems. She has been putting up with the merciless punishment that I've had to administer.

I know you guys have been anticipating some tips on my organic teas, but its looking like I won't be running one for a while! The plants, especially the White Widows, continue to show signs that they are right up to the maximum tolerable nute concentration. Baby leaves keep getting black tips. My gardener's intuition tells me that a nute tea is not what they need right now. I think my pre-loaded nutes and spray are gonna be all that's necessary to make it through veg. You cats will have to wait till I flip the switch to see my tea techniques.

Being right-on-the-limit doesn't seem to have slowed them down any though. Check it out:



The stem from from WW #2, my smallest (of the origional) plant. She passed up the width of a #2 pencil long ago and is well on her way to being bigger round than my little finger.

All this training has made the plants a little high-maintenance. I would like to take a moment to point out that I like high-maintenance grow styles. I like to see my plants every day and tend to pop in on them even if they don't need anything. Because of that all this fussing about with the plants suits me well. Please understand that this shit is OPTIONAL! So far as OBBT-related mantinance goes the plants have made it this far on ONE SINGLE WATERING. That's it! More than two weeks into the grow now and the only truly necessary input from me has been that sole water addition. Everything else: the seed surgury, the leaf training and the sprays have all been optional extras. If I where running from clones under high-powered HID lighting I could have left them completely alone. My grow is surely not the best method of showing the easiest way to utilize OBBTs.

Well that just about does it for now. My bigger plants are working on their third vertical inch now which means it won't be long before I introduce the screen. Unlike many horizontal gardeners I introduce the screen well before flipping the switch. The plants will have already completed a step or two before they go to flower.

I'm gonna wrap things up with another group shot, this time after Leaf Training:



Stay tuned!

 

[rrog]

LadyL, I sure hand it to you for this step by step. I have been cutting and pasting notes and pics so it's easy for me to follow.

1 Question: For Leaf Training / SuperCropping you are simply tucking the fan leaves under? No tying or bending the very young plant over to accomplish?

Thanks a heap.

 

[LadyLargely]

early training can be done a whole bunch of different ways. The goal is to get as many top colas at the canopy level as possible.

Depending on your grow conditions making this happen will require different actions from the gardener. I'm on a pretty extreme end of the spectrum. My main stems are crazy-short given the number of nodes they are sporting. On top of that I plan to ScrOG. I want to keep the main stems vertical until they hit the screen, whereupon they will promptly be going horizontal like you describe.

Bending the main stem over, for me, would just be counter-productive. I want to get my ladies up into the screen ASAP.

What you describe is a little more like LST. Forgo the screen and just bend the girls over at their main stem. Allow all of the side-colas to curl around and head towards the light. This can get you a lot of the benefits of ScrOG without all the hassle. I won't be doing that but it is another good way of meeting our goals.

One way or another you want to get those new little growth tips bathed in direct light. Always remember to supercrop (pinch the bit of stem in question and rotate until you feel it crunch a little) before attempting to move anything. If you try leaf training without supercropping you're just gonna put a kink in the leaf and kill it. Make that mistake on the main stem and you'll be looking like this guy:

Whatever you do, just make sure not to top the plants if you are growing from seed. This training style may seem abusive but it is much lower-stress than actually cutting the plant. Keep them short and dense and it'll be nothing but fine sensi coming out of your grow box.

 

[rrog]

Absolutely excellent answer. Thank you. I'll do exactly as you say. I'll be SCROGing again also, so I'll keep vertical.

Looking at YouTube vids of the process also http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=caregiving&view=videos&start=40 Start with "Pinching," then "Pinching 02," "Pinching 03," etc. Many vids devoted to the SuperCropping of an AK-47.

The difference with this guy is that he starts the process a lot later

 

[McDanger]

WOW

WOW

That is some awesome growth LadyL.
The cut I tried to put into the system didn't make it.
Then I went away for the weekend with the light off and the other plant didn't like that. I think without light the plant didn't convert any nutrients to chlorophyll. It is doing much better now as the new growth shows.
I tried to move a ww that was in soil into the other OBBT but that didn't work either. (I drenched it in a bucket of water to get the soil off the roots, then transplanted to the OBBT.) I think disturbing the medium screws up the network and it takes awhile for the bacteria to regroup. Now I have a new sprout in there and there seems to be no action one way or the other so that is better than death. I do water right by the stem just to make sure the roots stay moist.
I should have read your update before I tried the supercrop, that is why there is ductape on the stem. I'll remember to pinch 1st the next time before I try to bend.

 

[LadyLargely]

Hahaha, aww, poor McD, looks like you've got a few different newbie growing pains happening all at once.

If you think that growth is impressive just wait till we get to sexing, watching these ladies fill the screen will just blow you away!

Stems absolutely must be crushed before you attempt to bend them. The crushing makes the outer stem layers very compliant. If you do it right they will happily adopt whatever position you place them in, no matter how unorthodox.

Gotta say it man, leaving the lights off is a pretty big fuckup! They need light to stimulate chlorination, which is why you have them big yellow patches in the center of those lower leaves.

Don't worry about the new sprout not appearing to do anything. The little gal looks just like mine did, first set of tiny serrated leaves laying right on top of the round leaves. She will chill out like that for a couple of days. Don't think she's doing nothing though! Young plants take their time rooting into hot OBBTs, those tiny leaves will provide all the energy needed for her to get cracking on a sweet root network.

Disturbing the medium doesn't bother the bacteria much, its the fragile fungus you have to worry about. When you dig around in an OBBT the mycelium network needs a few days to recover.

Soon though the fungal network will recover and your tiny girl will be firmly tied to it. Once this happens, prepare for blastoff! If you do things right growth just keeps on accelerating until about the 4th week of flower where things begin to settle down. This is the 'biological inertia' I keep talking about.

Don't worry about adding water near the root zone of the plants. If you have constructed your OBBT correctly it matters not where the water gets added. Active whicking makes sure that the entire medium stays uniformly moist so long as the air stone stays submerged. Just look at my plants. They've been watered once since they where started, and that water was just tipped into the tubs out of a bucket where convenient. Didn't bother trying to add the water anywhere near the plants.

rrog

My son, you continue to focus too much on the specifics of my technique and not enough on the goal at hand. We want an even canopy. We want all of the new shoots that emerge from the main stem to eventually be as tall as the head cola. Think about it. The best way to do this is to supercrop the crap out of the main stem while leaving the offshoots alone. Let them get as tall and spindly as they want until they have reached the canopy. Once offshoots are as tall as the main stem supercrop them without mercy. This will slow them down and keep them even with the main growth. Supercropping the leaf stems just makes the side shoots grow faster. Leaf Training allows you to utilize even the smallest offshoots coming from the very very bottom of the plant. Normally the first handfull of shoots go to waste as they can be hard to develop to full size. Leaf training helps you to leave no cola behind.

 

[rrog]

rrog

My son, you continue to focus too much on the specifics of my technique and not enough on the goal at hand. We want an even canopy. We want all of the new shoots that emerge from the main stem to eventually be as tall as the head cola.

The goal is simple and clear. I'm looking to completely understand the technique is all. I've never done it so I ask questions to try and replace my lack of experience.

Thanks for your patience with me.

 

[LadyLargely]

Hehe, no problems mate. I'm just not a very good teacher and my methods can be a little odd and convoluted at times. I'm not the scientist that DM is and so I worry about people copying me verbatum. Even with all the pictures and explanations I am surely leaving some shit out. I totally feel my way through grows, this measuring and explaining and trying to be precise bullshit is just not up my street.

If you couldn't tell I don't have a lot of faith in my exact grow method when it is placed in the hands of other gardeners. I think I can help this community most by getting you guys to understand the underlying concepts. I think someone more scientifically inclined would be better suited to taking these broad ideas and turning them into a handy step-by-step guide.

I'm sure you understood what I meant the first time, you're just making extra-double sure that you've got it down pat. As McD demonstrated even missing a small detail in these methods can lead to problems.

I guess that I should be glad you are so tuned in, the more people like you in here the more popular the OBBTs will become.

The girls are really chugging along, they're starting to grow faster at night than during the day. This along with alternating nodes shows that they are starting to reach 'maturity'. That means the screen goes up very soon! Expect an update around Thursday or Friday and the first instructional installment on how to run what I call 'true ScrOG'. Until then, stay tuned!

 

[rrog]

I can get annoying with questions, I sure realize that. I have degrees in bio and chem both, so I can follow along and have found all of this just entirely fascinating. When I try a new recipe (I do a lot of that) I always try and follow along as close as possible the first time.

I have a step-by-step guide put together with all of the details I have found on the three OBBT threads, actually. Cut and pasted with added comments from me.

 

[LadyLargely]

hah, sick! you the man rrog! Glad a sciency chap such as yourself has taken up the mantle. Something tells me that with you on board and some help from crazy bastards like RVW and C024 we'll yet make this mess into a tight, reliable, popular cultivation method. If only Mr. Wags hadn't shut down that Organic Grow-Off thread, I was really looking forward to that.

 

[rrog]

I first caught wind of the benefits of benefitials in my last (and only) MJ grow. I was doing drip hydro and used a bennie mix in my res, with a little molasses. Unbelievably great. I saw the light at that point. Traditional hydro is artificial and too sterile.

So when I stumbled over here to see DMs thread, I realized this is exactly what I was looking for. I'm grateful for all the work you two have invested.

 

[SwitchAvenger]

...the more people like you in here the more popular the OBBTs will become.

I've been reading this about every day, or when every someone updates it. Rrog is on the gun with dissecting your technique. So i just read all of the Q&As and hide in a corner drawling up designs. I have a concept I'm working on but I'm a really cheap bastard so I'm waiting to find someone getting rid of 1/2 pvc.

With my current soil project i since tried using %10 urine (it's actually makes pretty good plant food) it's also my first one so it's just one plant on a 12/12 cycle, i know it's ghetto but for me the more basic and undemanding i can make it, the better off it is. But it also made me wonder how well it would work with an OBBT. It can't get more organic then fresh from you i guess either.

 

[LadyLargely]

Hahaha

Ahh, sorry, the idea of salt-based hydro being 'sterile' just amuses the piss outta me. All these salt growers think that they have achieved 'control' over their grow environment. Nothing is clean, there is no such thing as sterile, it is effectively impossible to make a hydro rig without something living down there. It has just always baffled me, it seems so counter-intuitive. Why on earth would you try to fight nature when she always wins in the end. Winning is what she does.

I'm not really into all that spiritual bullshit. Thinking that you need a relationship with Gia or good carma or whatever the fuck is just as dum, if not more so. Going either pure science or pure feel is just stupid. The most important thing as a cultivator is to realize just how small we are. I hate to quote him, but as DrunkenMessiah always said:

"In the grand scheme of things, everyone is wrong about everything."

As cool as humans are, we are still just an insignificant little piece of the vast body of natural occurrences. I think gardeners, hell anyone who tries to produce anything, need to take this to heart a lot more than they do now.

 

[LadyLargely]

Hey there SA, man I appreciate lurkers like you just as much as I do my buddy rrog here. I can totally identify with cheap-assedness. This has been my spendiest grow to date and it nearly killed me spending all that money. That said, if you are in it for the long term (are interested in more than just 1 or 2 quick n dirty runs) it is definitely worth the investment to get quality gear.

It can't get more organic then fresh from you i guess either.

Ehhh, urine works for nitrogen but you have to be careful with it. Its really volatile and should be run through a nice tea cycle before putting it on the plant. You could never boost the nitrogen levels with urine like I've been able to with composted blood meal. But if you aren't interested in pushing the envelope then it will work.

 

[ItsAllOver]

Keep it comin'. We're all curious to see where OBBT goes with cannabis. I buy the idea, for sure, and I'm trying to figure out how to apply it to flood and drain type tables.
I'll be keeping you up to date.

Good luck

 

[rrog]

Anyone here do 24/0 veg light cycles? I was looking at this a while ago and found a much stronger case for it than against it.