The numbers on single solvent dewaxing? not good

[Hashmasta-Kut]

its odd you go on about the lungs suffering, but typically most long term bho users dont report or show lung damage. i myself will admit to sinus problems, but my lungs are pretty great, and way better than when i used to smoke a lot of hash. like way, way, way better

 

[Permacultuure]

Thanks for all the positive vibes whiterasta......

 

[DrySiftWizrd]

its odd you go on about the lungs suffering, but typically most long term bho users dont report or show lung damage. i myself will admit to sinus problems, but my lungs are pretty great, and way better than when i used to smoke a lot of hash. like way, way, way better

But.. did those lungs get LAB TESTED?

Haha.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

yes, the lab is called my body, and i have been running experiments on it for over 40 years

 

[jd2]

yes, the lab is called my body, and i have been running experiments on it for over 40 years

haha --- good one!

Look, consuming toxic vapors of any sort can be dangerous. The question is what makes for a toxic vapor.

For some unlucky soles it could be something as simple as emissions from their outside yard burn.

Adding kinetic energy in the form of heat and prolonged contact is an activity that compounds the issue.

In general, studies claiming consumption of pot flower vapor is “less” dangerous than smoking cigarettes, base the claim on the rate of contact and not necessarily that the same harmful toxins aren’t involved.

The bottom line is that pot is a drug of choice. That means it is a “user” be wary activity, and the burden is on the user to decide if he or she wants to take the risk.

Consuming heated vapors with unknown content can be a risk, period. Some people decide to take the risk and blow out their fucking air-bags. Their choice; not mine, not your’s.

Turing pot into a pharma regulated product is a terrible concept.

Unfortunately we live in a society where there are those who want to protect the “idots” from themselves and in the guise of “doing” good and strive to control the “idiot” via regulation.

It’s unfortunate but these kind of people exist. That’s the bottom line.

If you want to consume just understand the chemical composition of your product and the possible reactions and decide if it’s worth the risk.

It’s important to understand that Ding-Dong here is basing his claim,(read the title), on a standard that may or may not be applied to BHO.

Regulatory agencies don’t move fast, studies and more studies will be done before this gets settled.

I don’t have a problem with the message that “not knowing what you’re consuming is a risk”, it’s the fact that the message isn’t inclusive by not being applied as a general message to include all elevated “heated” vapors of unknown sources.

 

[jdee]

"The Department of Health and Human Services (DHHS) has determined that benzene causes cancer in humans."

"The actual and real danger is the oxidation products of paraffin which are benzene, toluene"

"The used device produced THC at a temperature of 185°C while completely eliminating benzene, toluene and naphthalene. Significant amounts of benzene began to appear at temperatures of 200°C"

"Exposure to cannabis smoke, even over the long-term, is not associated with adverse effects on pulmonary function. That’s the conclusion of a major clinical trial published today in the prestigious Journal of the American Medical Association"

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

hey those are all quotes from different sources, right? where is the third one from, what device?


and here is one i found earlier in this thread, those two dont really jive, one must be out of wack i guess?

"Paraffin wax is a white or colorless soft solid derivable from petroleum, coal or shale, that consists of a mixture of hydrocarbon molecules containing between twenty and forty carbon atoms.... its boiling point is >370 °C (698 °F)."

 

[jackgastche]

its odd you go on about the lungs suffering, but typically most long term bho users dont report or show lung damage. i myself will admit to sinus problems, but my lungs are pretty great, and way better than when i used to smoke a lot of hash. like way, way, way better

What is the extent of your sinus issues? I used to have some issues with mine while vaping, but they've cleared up now.

 

[A6 Grower]

its odd you go on about the lungs suffering, but typically most long term bho users dont report or show lung damage. i myself will admit to sinus problems, but my lungs are pretty great, and way better than when i used to smoke a lot of hash. like way, way, way better

Ill second this, going from 8 years of joints, knife hits of hash, sobe bongs, and bongs in general, to the past 6 or so years of mainly dabs and the occasional weekend joint with friends my lungs capacity has increased quite a bit. My doctor agreed that vaporizing oil was probably better then smoking but he said that's just by what i've said and what hes seen in my lung capacity.

About the hash and normal smoking, inhaling these waxes along with the polar terps and things we arn't getting from our non polar extractions is actually better then vaporizing a product with less of these waxes? This is what confuses me, it seems inhaling less would be better then inhaling more but counter acting it with these anti histamines you speak of. Am i misunderstanding your statements?

I appreciate all the info you share jim, and always spend more time researching what you say then reading what you say lol.

 

[jdee]

hey those are all quotes from different sources, right? where is the third one from, what device?


and here is one i found earlier in this thread, those two dont really jive, one must be out of wack i guess?

"Paraffin wax is a white or colorless soft solid derivable from petroleum, coal or shale, that consists of a mixture of hydrocarbon molecules containing between twenty and forty carbon atoms.... its boiling point is >370 °C (698 °F)."

There was a link earlier in the thread about boiling point ranges, but it appeared to be more in the range of a few degrees than hundreds.

The vape used in the study was the M1 Volatizer. The info was from these.

Cannabis "Vaporization": A Promising Strategy for Smoke Harm Reduction
http://www.cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/2001-03-04-9.pdf
Harm Reduction Associated with Inhalation and Oral Administration of Cannabis and THC
http://www.cannabis-med.org/data/pdf/2001-03-04-8.pdf

 

[whiterasta]

Ill second this, going from 8 years of joints, knife hits of hash, sobe bongs, and bongs in general, to the past 6 or so years of mainly dabs and the occasional weekend joint with friends my lungs capacity has increased quite a bit. My doctor agreed that vaporizing oil was probably better then smoking but he said that's just by what i've said and what hes seen in my lung capacity.

About the hash and normal smoking, inhaling these waxes along with the polar terps and things we arn't getting from our non polar extractions is actually better then vaporizing a product with less of these waxes? This is what confuses me, it seems inhaling less would be better then inhaling more but counter acting it with these anti histamines you speak of. Am i misunderstanding your statements?

I appreciate all the info you share jim, and always spend more time researching what you say then reading what you say lol.

A-6, thank you for you question.This is what is known
http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1104848

Which has shown no net harm from natural cannabis smoke. This is backed up by several thousand yrs of history

This is ALL that has been generated on "dabs" in the PDF.
It is an initial survey but it is not painting as rosy a picture. Acknowledging what the subjects were using in the survey was not examined.

Additionally for the most part dabs are not fully destearinated and there are some real issues with both vapor paraffin and especially oxidized paraffin. As they say the devil is in the dose. In a concentrate that has not been second solvent destearinated the dose of wax will increase along with the cannabinoids and can be in the multiple mgs over several tokes as opposed to a much smaller fraction in the flowers. And while some folks can use these products with benefit it is not the case for a lot of other folks that dabs cause 45minute fits of coughing from the same 0ppm shatter. IMO it is cause to look further at what the "other" non-cannabinoid percentages in cannabis and work to fully remove the unnecessary adulterants. It certainly is not going to make a worse product by making it cleaner and more potent in the active components.
As for the NIH limits on paraffin exposure. They were set at that level to establish the greatest exposure and still have X% unaffected by it over an 8hr work day. And again the devil is in the dose. What may well be easily tolerated by one may be a dire excess to another. As concentrates hit the shelves there is a certain responsibility to make your product as harmless to as many potential customers as possible. That is the jist of what I wish to get across at this point. I hope this covers what you were curious about. Thank you for the pleasant way you approached me. I respond so much more accurately and on point when my buttons are not being pushed.


"About the hash and normal smoking, inhaling these waxes along with the polar terps and things we arn't getting from our non polar extractions is actually better then vaporizing a product with less of these waxes? This is what confuses me, it seems inhaling less would be better then inhaling more but counter acting it with these anti histamines you speak of. Am i misunderstanding your statements?"

no A-6 I think the less of these waxes the better but unless the concentrate has had the waxes precipitated in a light alcohol under cold conditions and filtered as a preparatory/polishing step before the final purge it is going to have a proportionally higher wax content that matches closely the increase in cannabinoids. Single solvent methods are limited by a number of reasons which will leave various amounts of residual waxes as yet not fully quantified but easily exceeding what is considered a noxious exposure for paraffin given it is a rather low number. Understand i am not entirely against vaped concentrates only raw waxy gum. A properly destearinated and purged concentrate is a very potent method of delivery and for some the ideal solution to their medical issues. That said until it is proven these oils are without harm and the first survey suggests there may be issues I think all caution and care should be used in the production of salable products including removal of any impurities and in-actives like waxes , chorophylls and sugars. As far as raw plant materials ,flowers, hashish, etc There is a mechanism of protection only in the beginnings of being fleshed out. It likely will have some very important therapeutic potential when understood. I know three researchers working on the "why does pot smoke act like it is good for your lungs?" question now. Time will flesh it out I merely passed along what is known now about protective mechanisms in the limited knowledge we have about secondary compound chemistry and what I know about the solubility of these compounds in a Non-polar solvent.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

What is the extent of your sinus issues? I used to have some issues with mine while vaping, but they've cleared up now.

not too terrible, but a minor constant bit of stuffiness typically. i maybe have other environmental factors at play here too, but if i cut back a lot the sinus stuffiness recedes some. But all of this minor congestion is like night and day compared to when i used to smoke herb and hash a lot, that was much worse.

i find it really hard to fathom how this mechanism of protection would make one suffer constant lung congestion and hacking? its not like you could cough and then be fine and keep smoking. if i smoked hash a lot one day, the next morning trying to take another toke would be incredibly hellish, and i could barely take a large one after a bit of previous use. with oil, this pretty much doesnt happen at all. can vape my brains out, and then the next dab awhile later is smooth, no coughing..

 

[BrainChild]

Interesting stuff. I certainly appreciate the information.

One thing hard for me to imagine is a government regulatory body excepting the antihistamine and expectorant qualities of cannabis as the counter to the paraffin, when it's not even recognized federally to have ANY medicinal benefits at all. We all know that's bullshit though~

I'm all for getting the paraffin or any impurities out of extracts. But if over exposure to paraffin has health consequences and limits are set, to suggest regulators will except paraffin content in flowers and mechanical hash because of the other beneficial components doesn't seem likely.

But perhaps the medical cannabis community should recognize this. But in a backward world with regulated pollution, alcohol, tobacco and GMO food...I have a hard time seeing paraffin content getting anything more than a warning label.

Just my opinion though, very interesting topic

 

[whiterasta]

not too terrible, but a minor constant bit of stuffiness typically. i maybe have other environmental factors at play here too, but if i cut back a lot the sinus stuffiness recedes some. But all of this minor congestion is like night and day compared to when i used to smoke herb and hash a lot, that was much worse.

i find it really hard to fathom how this mechanism of protection would make one suffer constant lung congestion and hacking? its not like you could cough and then be fine and keep smoking. if i smoked hash a lot one day, the next morning trying to take another toke would be incredibly hellish, and i could barely take a large one after a bit of previous use. with oil, this pretty much doesnt happen at all. can vape my brains out, and then the next dab awhile later is smooth, no coughing..

I think there is a lot of individual response involved. Genetically we are all predisposed to different reactions to cannabis based on the distribution of receptors. Some people who try a dab cough until they puke and find it extremely unpleasant, others are like "crackalacka" and are dabbing all day long. For myself I prefer old school hashish, could be a cultural thing but physically using hash is MUCH easier on my lungs than dabs, which BTW cause me horrible sinus issues for about 5 minutes post dab. But When my pain level goes way up and I get very short tempered I will add a drop on top of a bong of high CBD herb and feel much better. Again we all have slightly different ways we react to cannabis that create a range of response, additionally cannabis has a biphasic dose response all are factors in how someone reacts to using cannabis or a cannabis concentrate.

 

[Hashmasta-Kut]

for sure everyone should have a different reaction, but its true for pretty much everyone i talk to, who has switched over, that its like night and day, and the irritation is much less with vapor dabs than weed or hash smoke. it seems to be at least 9 out of ten.. it could just be switching to vapor rather than smoking that is the major change that makes it so much easier on a person.

 

[whiterasta]

It is just wax and harmless....
Only someone with an agenda,like the weight of their sales will defend a contaminant in their product. FWIW I back read this post and there were some interesting reactions, including my own to the level of denial and excuses made about a simple and easily removed contaminant. That it is being continuously defended I suppose is to be expected considering that I received the same reaction when I called out canned gas on the John Doe Radio show... "medical butane" was being advertised in CO in a week and I was a dick. When I pointed out underpurged "tane soup" I was a dick. In fact evertime I have said anything to this "community" about what the rest of the real world sees and expects hackles are raised and I am the dick. That is all well and good as I would rather be a dick than a sucker and so far those who would rather think i am a dick because of my message have been suckers. I did not come here to make anyone feel badly, I did not come here to make anyone mad. I have done both. i apologize. I own my bad temper and admit it flared up when my points were twisted.
I offer this new carcass to dismember in PDF form so it can be as Irrelevant as everything else I have posted.
Peace ICMag.
PS yeah, I know that was some real passive aggressive stuff

 

[KiefSweat]

the crux of the argument has always been the same, it used to paraffin from the butane now its from the plant.

 

[jd2]

It is just wax and harmless....
Only someone with an agenda,like the weight of their sales will defend a contaminant in their product. FWIW I back read this post and there were some interesting reactions, including my own to the level of denial and excuses made about a simple and easily removed contaminant. That it is being continuously defended I suppose is to be expected considering that I received the same reaction when I called out canned gas on the John Doe Radio show... "medical butane" was being advertised in CO in a week and I was a dick. When I pointed out underpurged "tane soup" I was a dick. In fact evertime I have said anything to this "community" about what the rest of the real world sees and expects hackles are raised and I am the dick. That is all well and good as I would rather be a dick than a sucker and so far those who would rather think i am a dick because of my message have been suckers. I did not come here to make anyone feel badly, I did not come here to make anyone mad. I have done both. i apologize. I own my bad temper and admit it flared up when my points were twisted.
I offer this new carcass to dismember in PDF form so it can be as Irrelevant as everything else I have posted.
Peace ICMag.
PS yeah, I know that was some real passive aggressive stuff

Rasta,

You’re obviously a bright guy, with a lot to offer; albeit with an awful thin skin.

Perhaps what you perceive as people twisting your words might be their effort to find clarity in terms of the bigger picture.

Look at it this way; you’re the guy that got the conversation started.

Anyway moving on;

This is an older study, but it offers an interesting argument for more potency.

I’m betting a guy like you could figure out how to build a better mouse trap.

 

[jd2]

the crux of the argument has always been the same, it used to paraffin from the butane now its from the plant.

Hardly surprising though when you consider it's a major constituents of both.

 

[KiefSweat]

plant waxes are a byproduct of terpene/cannabinoid synthesis and are probably shorter chain molecules. Similar but not the same to petroleum derived paraffin but no ones ever actually tested the wax to determine what it is anyway