The NEW E-Papillon 1000W Thread

[pHive.8]

@thewhitelotus
Great to hear you will be trying the ePapillon fixtures! You will be amazed by the yield!
Your 4x4 area will definately be covered by the footprint of the ePapillon 1000W.
500 cfm should be sufficient. You can expect about 4000 BTU on heat coming from them.
The ePap's have just regular 240V plugs.

 

[thewhitelotus]

thanks for the info. found a dealer locally that can get the units in a day or two since were fairly close to Irvine. think i might step up the fan to a 725 and get a controller just to be on the safe side

 

[pHive.8]

@thewhitelotus
Good to hear! Good luck with your ePap's. I'm sure you'll definately like them!

 

[habeeb]

DGS,

another question on the 315 fixture..

do they ship with a bulb? or do I have to buy separate?



Thanks

 

[pHive.8]

@Habeeb
I can be either way. Please check with your shop.
The dPapillon can come with two types of lamps and both can be supplied by your shop.

 

[Ogmijukush]

Hello, I was wondering I want to cover a 4'x16.5' footprint. Should I use 3 or 4 e-paps?

 

[pHive.8]

Hello, I was wondering I want to cover a 4'x16.5' footprint. Should I use 3 or 4 e-paps?

3 ePapillon 1000W fixtures will result in about 1000 µmol/m²s.
4 ePapillon 1000W fixtures will result in about 1200 µmol/m²s.

It's up to you!
Either way, the light will be uniform over the total surface when putting them 3 ft above the plants.

 

[rawgutter]

I'm a big fan of max lighting... How close could I stack these, 8 lights side by side? 3'x4', 3.5'x4'? Thanks

 

[pHive.8]

@rawgutter:

How close could you stack these. I'm not sure what you mean, but you can stack them as close as you want. The lightdistribution is made in such a way that it is very clean so very smooth.
This is necessary for greenhouses that do flowers.
Lighting for chrysanthemum is installed in a pattern of 31 ft by 4 ft at a height of 9 ft. They get uniformities of > 90% with no problem at all.
They work with lightlevels of 100 micromol/m2s. Medicine will grow best at about 1000 micromol/m2s.
So the closer you put up the lights, the better the uniformity will be and the higher the lightlevel will be. The lightdistribution will only get better when more lights are installed.

Or did you ask a complete different question? I'm Dutch so I might have misunderstood you.

 

[rawgutter]

Lets say I have room for a bed that is 8 foot by 12 foot or 8 foot by 14 foot, could I put 8 lights in that area with out issue? CO2 sealed room with plenty of AC.

I currently run 12 radiant 8s in a 9 foot x 12 foot area and like the results.

 

[pHive.8]

@rawgutter. A I completely misunderstood your questions.

Radiant 8s are aircooled 1000W's right?
Just a quick calculation: 8 ft by 12ft is 2,44m by 3,65m is 8,9 m^2.
8 fixtures times 2000 micromol/s is 16000 micromol/s.
Take off loss at the walls, reflector efficiency leaves about 14000 micromol/s
14000 micromol/s devided by 8,9 m^2 is 1575 micromol/m2s

I'm not sure whether your plant can handle that.
But the lightdistribution will be great. That's no problem at all.

I wouldn't know why it could be a problem.

probably you could replace 12 radiant 8s by 8 ePapillon 1000W's and get the same amount of light.

 

[rawgutter]

Yes, Radiant 8s are aircooled 1000W's on "super lumen" digital ballast. The space is new and would like to build it out with Epap's. I just want max lighting so maybe the 8x14 foot area is the way to go.

 

[pHive.8]

Are you worried about heat? Or what would you be worried about?

 

[rawgutter]

Cooling will be sufficient, and air movement will be fine. I hoping high light levels help the use of CO2. Everything has been dialed with the Radiant 8s so change is always something to worry about, I just hope the plants cant take the light, big fan of overlapping.

 

[pHive.8]

If you don't worry about cooling, definately go for the ePapillon 1000W's.

Photosynthesis are 3 main ingredients: light, CO2 and nutrients (+water).
It's all about the weakest link. Up your light, up CO2 and nutrients.

If you worry about the amount of light: Replace 12 radiant 8's by 8 ePapillon 1000W's. They will probably give you the equal amount of light.

I made a little picture that shows what the ePapillon is all about lighting wise when it comes to overlap!

 

[rawgutter]

In the new room I would like to go 2 wide, 4ft apart since the reflector spreads light wide. By rows of 4 that is why I would only put them 3ft apart.

 

[pHive.8]

I would definately go for it.
They will give you light like you haven't seen before.

 

[whazzup]

It is great to see that my colleagues from Lights Interaction come on the forums too to share their knowledge and support their lighting solutions. More suppliers who actually have the professional knowledge should do that.

Talking for myself, I do not talk about other solutions in my posts unless asked for it, and I do respond in the same topic if I am asked to respond. I always invite anyone to respond to anything I write, and I also always recommend to not take my word for it and consult your peers.

So I am not going to start a long discussion here but I do want to respond to what was written by my esteemed colleague. We meet each other of course at trade shows and we talk on the phone, so rest assured, we are not going to have a "spurr" discussion .

So Whazzup posted the following:

=================================================

It is really simple. The e-papillon is a wide reflector, which is by nature less efficient and penetrates not as deep as our design reflector. Furthermore in any room you will have much higher wall losses from a wide reflector. I have just seen the manual of the 1000W papillon and they recommend about the same distance as our reflector, even a bit more. That will certainly result in lower light levels.

The plus is that the lower light levels will result in less heat on your plants, but do you really want lower light levels and less penetration?

It is not true that the e-papillon generates less heat: it just distributes the light (and heat) wider. Light on your walls will be partly dissipated in heat, and that will also warm up your room. So less reflector efficiency and more light on your walls, together with less penetration makes this reflector imho less suitable for indoor growing. If you love light you need to cope with the heat, it's that simple.


=================================================


What's true and what's untrue in this story:

The ePapillon is a wide reflector: Untrue.
An open reflector doesn't make the reflector a wide reflector. The lightspread is 60 degrees to both sides.

That will certainly result in lower light levels: Untrue
Like Whazzup has posted before: You light a room, not a table. Reflectors need overlap.
The ePapillon reflector will result in higher lightlevels measured in a room with a 4'by 4' setup or any other similar setup.

It is not true that the e-papillon generates less heat: it just distributes the light (and heat) wider. Untrue
Efficiency means: all electricity that hasn't been converted to light will become heat.
Because the reflector is more efficient it will generate less heat.
Next to that, the heat is distributed more even across the room because of the open reflector.

At the time of posting the older reflector was still the standard. Though the new reflector is less wide, it is still wider than the Gavita reflector. You can compare the diagrams yourself.

You see that the HR96 is relatively a bit deeper than the Lights Interaction reflector.

Wide reflectors like the older lights interaction reflector are mostly used in horticulture in lower light requirement situations, because they spread the light over a larger area, creating better uniformity. In production climate rooms you do not want all that light going to your walls, that will create losses. In research climate rooms they don't care about losses, they just want the best light.

Again, it would be nice to have someone do the test themselves.

less penetration: untrue.
The ePapillon reflector was designed to reflect the light in different angles.
You don't want the light only directed downwards. The light in the angles will be light that is directed into the canopy.
So every plant will get light in different angles. The leaves of your plant aren't all only directed upwards...

[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=44419&pictureid=1128294&thumb=1]View Image[/url]

First of all I totally agree that you should not distribute your light straight down, and that bringing the light in under an angle provides a better horizontal penetration of your crop. But there is also depth in penetration vertically. Now here the Gavita reflector has the advantage over the lights interaction reflector. Look in the diagram straight under the lamp.

It is a misconception that the HR96 reflector is only deep. In fact it has a deep and a wide component. The side reflectors reflect the light to the opposite side of the reflector at a very steep angle. As you can see from the diagrams, though the Lights Interaction reflector is a bid wider than ours, it doesn't make a lot of difference. So actually we agree about the angles.

If you love light you need to cope with the heat, it's that simple: Untrue
Just buy the right type of fixtures.... and measure for yourself. The heat in your growing room will be less high.

Now here we disagree. The lights interaction fixture generates the same heat as the Gavita fixture does. There could be a difference in ballast dissipation, but basically Lights Interaction uses a ballast design that we used to use in our first models, so there will be not a lot of difference. In fact DGS recommends the same BTUs to cool one fixture (4000 BTU).

Furthermore light dissipates in heat. Put a black piece of paper under a high intensity LED and you will be surprised how warm it gets. HPS also has a large infrared component, actually over 60% is IR. There is not a lot of difference in direct light between the HR96 and the LI reflector. The Gavita reflector has about 30% direct light from the lamp, the rest is through the reflector. I expect the LI reflector to have a bit less direct light, the exit angle of the direct light is a bit smaller, so more light is brought to the crop through the reflector (and light through a reflector will give you losses of course).

Now a very open reflector becomes less warm than a closed one. In fact in those very open and wide reflectors, until the third generation lamps from Philips came to the market, you had to use special small reflectors on the lamps at both sides to keep the electrodes warm enough to keep them at operating temperature because an open reflector was too cool for the lamp. But allowing your heat to leak out of the reflector has no influence on the radiated heat from the light. You are all familiar with a infrared lamp. It uses aluminum reflectors to reflect the heat. Infrared is also reflected. So in total you will get the same amount of heat on your crop and in your room.

In a closed reflector the hot air will leak out of the reflector at the sides an go up, as hot air does. That heat will never reach your plants and will keep the lamp at the optimal temperature. In total the dissipation of both systems will be about the same. I do not expect a lot of difference in radiant heat at the same light levels, and you have to use the same HVAC to cool both fixtures.

Did you know that Philips dictates the following for the GreenPower 1000W EL lamp:
Lamps are designed for use in open luminaires, when used in closed luminaires, overheating of the lamp will occur.

That is true, but you also need to point out then that with a closed reflector Philips means a reflector with a glass lens in front of it. The Gavita reflector is an open reflector. In fact, Philips warns that running the lamps too cool will prevent it from reaching its optimal output and it can prolong the burn-in time. Philips recommends a lamp temperature of 500 Celsius! Hence the need for extra electrode warmers in previous generations open reflectors.

The 1150W boost function will not have any effect in lifetime of the Philips lamp in an open reflector.
Why? The heat is distributed better.

It will not have an effect of the lifetime in this market, period. These lamps are made for 20,000 hours of use in horticulture with many more restarts per day than we will ever use. In hydroponics we use them a year, before it becomes economically interesting to replace them.

Did you know that every 10 degrees centrigrade will result in a 50% higher failure rate of the electronics.
A closed reflector will heat up the complete fixture. An open reflector distributes the heat to the surroundings, not to the fixture itself.
Measure the temperature of the housing of the electronics and see for yourself...

It depends from which baseline you are measuring the 10 degrees, but true, totally agree. I am wondering though what you will see when you measure the hotspots on the housing. In fact you should measure the temperature of the most vital electronics inside the housing.

Now this implies indirectly that the reflector heats up the ballast, and to some extent it might have little influence. But by using heat bridges this influence is very low.

Anyways, I welcome Lights Interaction to this market and I am sure we will have some interesting discussions and tests taking place the coming year. Having good competitors keeps you sharp.

There is also a lot of knowledge in Lights Interaction, and they are very familiar with the Philips products. In fact, I believe that LI was founded by people that came from Philips 11 years ago or so when Philips stopped making luminaries and went back to their core business in which they were excelling.

I am also glad that you took my comment serious to seal the IEC input which was leaking, making the ventilation plug superfluous.

Go for it Sir

 

[pHive.8]

 

[RB26]

Interesting banter to say the least, i'm still open as to which performs better but I'd definitely like to try them out first hand. I'm looking to replace all the lamps in one of my collective's rooms, any chance of getting some of these for a grower evaluation (E-paps or Gavitas)?