The myth, of the high P myth?

[spurr]

Why?

I do not agree with what you are suggesting in terms of high P being used by fertilizer companies for osmotic stress, nothing against you. It's great you are putting out your thoughts and backing them up with some references; you may very well be correct, I just happen to disagree.

 

[PointofNoReturn]

Theres not a single Crop where Crop Consultants advice over 70 ppm of p. Question should be how P helps with Transition into Flowering or Ripening. Products like Shooting Powder( AN also has alot of Products centered around P like BudBlood)seem to work.

 

[spurr]

Theres not a single Crop where Crop Consultants advice over 70 ppm of p. Question should be how P helps with Transition into Flowering or Ripening. Products like Shooting Powder( AN also has alot of Products centered around P like BudBlood)seem to work.

It is my opinion that 'bud boosters' work via K, not P. If a person tried using only K as a booster without P, I bet one would get very similar results to a P and K booster. I for one would not use high P during pre-flowering as a means to limit stretch, which is possible (i.e., stretch) when using high P.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I plan to bump P to 60 for the next run just to see what happens.

The formula I am considering is:

MKP 1 gram per gallon
KNO3 1.2
MgSO4 2.4
CaNO3 2.6

Plus a micro package of course.

If my math is correct (not an assumption I would make) my ppm will be:

N 150
P 60 (bringing my P to 1.2 like Mullray once suggested)
K 207
Ca 125
Mg 60
S 80

If it needs a bump at the end of stretch I plan to add a little K2SO4...say 0.4 grams per gal which would take K to 250 and leave me with the 4-2-1 K-Ca-Mg ratio I like.

I also found some lignosulfate chelated micros...go to the micronutrients section and download the Fertall pdf..http://www.growmore.com/industry/ag_organic.html

Does anyone have an opinion on the ratios in the MB package?

 

[YosemiteSam]

So maybe increase Ca to the level of N? And Mg to around 1/2 of Ca...150 ppm Ca and 75 Mg? I cannot exactly put my finger on why I think it, but I have the feeling you are right on this. Plus I still like to foliar spray Ca...maybe the coco thing is why that works for me.

That should be doable with a little head scratchin.

 

[YosemiteSam]

One thing I have failed to mention is that there really is a secret ingredient in Calcium 25. I thought, and their website does not say anything different, that it was just CaCl and some fatty acids that make the plant "recognize" the Ca.

A friend did some research and found out the also add triacontanol, a pgr. That is why they have different formulas for different plants...to get the tria level right. Here is the patent info so you can see what is actually going on http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/4333758.html

The stuff literally cuts a week or week and a half off my flowering time when applied at the beginning of flower and the end of stretch.

So I am not exactly looking to quit spraying it anytime soon.

 

[BasementBreeder]

Mullray,

you said 'Ca as high as N sounds out (too high)'. What's your reasoning for this? I ask because I've recently come across(in books and articles meant for general hydro) quite a few nutrient recipes that call for equal or greater amounts of Ca compared to N.

 

[tester]

Mullray : would you share those lab analysises?

 

[majortom9]

I have 3 plants that are almost 3 weeks into bloom. I am using 10-52-10 at 1/3rd strength per gallon. So that dosage would be roughly 3-9-3 if 1/2 of the listed P is released as o2. I am also using a micro nutrient that is listed 5-0-1 at 10 ml per gallon, which would bring my ratios to 8-9-4. With that I mix 2 tbs of blackstrap molasses per gallon which is probably around 1-?-5, imposable to say I know, bringing it closer to 9-9-9. If my numbers are correct, and please correct me if they aren't, I started off with a way over the top high P base nutrient and end up with a balanced all around general purpose food? Is that correct?

 

[BasementBreeder]

tom,

Your numbers are wrong. They don't add like that. You need to take the dilution rates into consideration(basically taking a weighted average). Here's an example of what to do:

5-0-1 @ 10ml/ gal
10ml/gal is real close to 2.5ml/L (1L = 1000ml)
2.5ml/1000ml = .0025, (which is a 1:400 dilution rate, btw)

5-0-1 is the percentage. convert to ppm by multiplying by 10,000.
so 50,000-0-10,000(in ppm)

multiply these numbers by the dilution rate to find the amount you are adding to solution.
50,000*.0025 = 125 ppm N
10,000*.0025 = 25 ppm K2O

Do this for each nute(molasses included) you are adding to your water. Then add up the total ppm to find the true ratio of elements.

canna stats will do the calcs for you.

 

[sex_pistils]

Yo dudez. So, what's the verdict? Equal ratio of NPK is the best or 1-1-2? All purpose plant food? someone knows? When someone is trying to get big buds should I go even-ratio or high P?

 

[BasementBreeder]

sex,

I suggest reading the entire thread, as well as any references posted. That way you can make your own opinion, instead of taking a stranger's advice from online.

There is no single "best" ratio, imo. It's going to depend on many factors(ie. environment, growing medium, the specific crop/cultivar you are growing). That said, I personally like a 3-1-5 (elemental NPK) but would certainly adjust it to meed the plant's needs.

 

[newbie2006]

I have been giving GHE FloraBloom and FloraMicro at rates of 2ml FB and 1ml FM per litre. Usually used fulvic acid, potassium silicate and hesi supervit (which is a amino acid additive, which apparently is useless according to this thread). Something like Lucas with additives. Which is apparently a very good thing, as Lucas has the perfect P-K ratio or have I understood wrongly?

I have got pretty good results with this. Sometimes in early veg I crank up the FM a bit more.

Last project I sprayed with a calcium + mg solution every now and then. They seemed to really like it, and this thread has confirmed to me that I did something right.

However now I feel I should get a separate K bottle and add it on top of these nutes I am usually going with. Also, would I benefit if I would spray the cal and the mg on alternating days instead of as a single spray?

 

[ScrubNinja]

To discuss low P and high B, recently I needed new veg nutes urgently but missed the hydro store. My only option was to get an alleged hydroponic nute from a hardware store to tide me over for a couple of days. It's called Propaganics and it looks terrible. They have a grow and bloom and it's an aussie 1 part liquid product. $20/litre.

The first indication it was whack was that the veg/bloom analysis was exactly the same for every single element. Nothing much gets past me.

Here's the elemental PPMs at 5ml/Litre, they recommend 5 to 8 on the label:

Nitrogen 100
Phosphorus 1 (1.3 un-rounded)
Potassium 166
Magnesium 35
Sulfur 20
Calcium 60
Iron 2.5
Boron 17.5
Manganese 0.5
Zinc 0.1
Molybdenum 0.25
Sodium 0.0
Copper 0.75
Chlorine 0.0
Cobalt 0.05

Despite my nute newbiness, I happened to be aware of the general <1ppm rule for boron so I think I used Thrive All Purpose to try and dilute the B a little, lol, which lead to a whole new learning experience about nitrogen forms in hydro nutes.

The only warning on the label is keep out of reach of children. They don't say it's ok for food crops, but they don't say it's not. Maybe I should try like, actually using it on a plant? I would be happy to document it, in another thread perhaps, in the name of science and not smoke the produce, apart from just a quick assessment toke mebbe I'm actually running a lot of seed at the moment so I should have males I could feed with it soon too.

I realise that manufacturers are able to only show the % in the GA for elements they choose (see GH products for example - "derived from" tells some of the untold story, WSDA site tells the rest), but I distinctly (meaning, vaguely) remember reading something about how Boron is exempt from being mentioned in some other respect. Perhaps if it was under a set level. Perhaps it was an aussie regulation thing. Would you have any clue what I'm on about? Sorry to be so vague, I just figured it may sway Sam's proposed B tests.

I have grown in the past in coco with only ~28ppm of P right through flower (~30ppm through veg) - DM Gold Flower @ 1.9 ml per litre rainwater gives approx this amount with no ph down required, and is approx 1.5ec. IMO it's a below optimal amount of P for sure but I guess the average person (tap water) would add P as ph down. Even 30ppm for veg is too low, methinks. Have a great day.

 

[BasementBreeder]

newbie,

I haven't come across a single academic(or non-cannabis, actually) source that would support the p-k ratio of lucas. Most call for between 30-60 ppm of P, compared to 200-300 ppm of K.

I know of no reason to foliar feed the Ca and Mg on different days. Seems like extra work to me.

 

[BasementBreeder]

scrub,

That does look pretty bad. Could you list the "derived from" on the bottle. The P is so low(my tap has .568 ppm P), it makes me wonder if it is a labeling error on the bottle. The B is also ridiculously high(as you noted). I would be interested in watching you do a grow with that nute. I wouldn't use it on many (ie, more than 1 or 2) plants though.

And I believe you're right about not having to list certain elements if they are below a certain concentration. However, I don't know what those concentration levels are, or in what location(s) it applies.

 

[ScrubNinja]

Thanks Basement. Yeah I was not too sure what to think. Unfortunately there's no derived from list. I'll have a quick look for their site now. I wil try a few on the side if my seedlings pick up.

 

[TheBioMaster]

Basement- your correct, there is no scientific data that supports the lucas formula, but there are several saying that it is lacking in several areas especially in nitrogen as we now know that nitrogen is needed more in flower than originally thought in earlier days. ALso tissue analysis done by Dyna grow/bloom which IS a complete formula and much better idea than the lucas formula, shows levels of silicon being off the charts. Much more silicone is needed than originally thought in earler days of scientific study.

Lots of folks use lucas and have success, but that really only shows what good genectics are capable of (and how much of a role good genectics plays) and how much of these additives on the market today are snake oil and not needed. But you cant ignore the scientific facts that it is missing key things that help the plants grow stronger and to thier full potential. When you see a success story from the lucas formula always think how much better it could have been had the plant been given FULL nutrition through out its life cycle....simple is good, if you want to go simple get a full meal deal like Dyna grow/bloom and bottle of protek silicone or something very similar.....

 

[tester]

tissue analysis done by Dyna grow/bloom

any links man?

 

[YosemiteSam]

40 P through veg, 60 P through stretch...it was 17 days into flower when the pic was taken.

K:N ratio is being bumped to 2:1 for the rest of the grow...136 N

Gonna find some stuff out this time.

The plant is an ISS and is literally 8 ft in diameter. I expect big things from it