The Haze discussion thread

[gonanchoa]

I'm sorry Hempy, I'm not trying to rustle your feathers in any way.
As Chi pointed out, I am simply trying to point out that we are talking about a completely different process to get to a completely different outcome.

Reverse breeding is part of tissue culture. Genetic modification i suppose with the purpose of recreating the original parent(s) without the use of males. (Genetic modification? if you modify the genome, how do you recreate the original parent? It must be the same genome, remember females reshuffle information between autosomes, we dont want that, we want the same chromosome as the parent)

As its stated in the papers, all the chromosomes are there in the female cuts but in different order(?) (Yes, females shuffle information between autosomes XX during meiosis, thats why you can't breed back the original parents forward and is so important to keep cuttings for breeders. Male Y chromosome on the other hand is passed down without altering much information (highly degenerated Y chromosome). I understand that is why hempy is saying to use haze males to bring back ancestral phenotypes). Forgive my ignorance to the actual science at this time. But the idea is you can get those chromosome or whatever, back to the original sequence of the parents, thus recreating the original parental stock that created the cuts. Thus opening a huge opportunity to work with what is no longer available.

I cant explain it any other way so this is my last response on the subject. If we are all up to speed, awesome, of not...c'est la vie

From your research paper:
*Qte*

Methods that allow the fixation of elite germplasm (apomixis and reverse breeding) provide alternatives to this selection process.

*Unqte*

You want to apply reverse breeding which has been already tried w/o success. I think it hasn't been tried with polyploids and it might help you. Please contact people who have tried bf and failed, it will probably save you time. I'm not discouraging you, but I think the problem is homozygous cannabis lacks so much vigour that doesn't develop or is weak and dies easily. I would like to know the personal opinion of those who tried and failed.

On the other hand, I have pointed that apomixis might be an easier way because there are many reports and most people blame it on "rogue pollen" bc is the easy explanation (I got it wrong as well for a time bc I wouldn't trust online reports, until I saw it with my eyes). Also, hempy shared links showing how there is debate on how it works with contradictory reports. it could be a great research advancement because you get clone-seeds directly in the selected plant, no need to go back and forth.


Btw who is mentoring you and gave you the idea? Are you doing a project at university? Will you share with us the project as it develops or you can't? Whats your plan to achieve it? I would appreciate your input, we might be able to help you!

 

[CannaT]

which haze of them(first haze,a or c) is responsible for medicinal haze(sage,cedar,pine,eucalyptus,oregano,rosemary)vicks vaporub like ?

 

[RingtailCanyon]

We both agree that there are 2 version of Mango haze the confusion is what is what .

The Mango Haze was a calibration of both Nevil and shanti that means both had a part in the Mango Haze.

Nevil told me he gave Shanti the Sk x HzA and suggested he go threw them for a father to cross to the 122 to make the original Mango Haze it dose not get any clear than that.

Now you believe what ever you want.

Please stop playing like a victim Hempy. You just put out misinformation and aren’t able to understand that.
No I never agreed there was 2 versions. Unless you are talking about mango haze inbred.
Why would Shanti give out testers then release a different untested version?
Yes Donald that post was written by Shanti, not me.
Mango haze father is Skunk haze A according to him.
I’m smoking mango haze inbred today and it is spicy, leathery and fruity. It took me over 100days flowering indoor.

 

[@hempy]

Please stop playing like a victim Hempy. You just put out misinformation and aren’t able to understand that.
No I never agreed there was 2 versions. Unless you are talking about mango haze inbred.
Why would Shanti give out testers then release a different untested version?
Yes Donald that post was written by Shanti, not me.
Mango haze father is Skunk haze A according to him.
I’m smoking mango haze inbred today and it is spicy, leathery and fruity. It took me over 100days flowering indoor.

Stop trolling me and stop trashing the thread RingtailCanyon i cant be more clear than that.

I have answered all your asking again several times your clearly not reading my responses and only here to create drama.

My information is correct.

 

[Fitzera]

From your research paper:
*Qte*

Methods that allow the fixation of elite germplasm (apomixis and reverse breeding) provide alternatives to this selection process.

*Unqte*

You want to apply reverse breeding which has been already tried w/o success. I think it hasn't been tried with polyploids and it might help you. Please contact people who have tried bf and failed, it will probably save you time. I'm not discouraging you, but I think the problem is homozygous cannabis lacks so much vigour that doesn't develop or is weak and dies easily. I would like to know the personal opinion of those who tried and failed.

On the other hand, I have pointed that apomixis might be an easier way because there are many reports and most people blame it on "rogue pollen" bc is the easy explanation (I got it wrong as well for a time bc I wouldn't trust online reports, until I saw it with my eyes). Also, hempy shared links showing how there is debate on how it works with contradictory reports. it could be a great research advancement because you get clone-seeds directly in the selected plant, no need to go back and forth.


Btw who is mentoring you and gave you the idea? Are you doing a project at university? Will you share with us the project as it develops or you can't? Whats your plan to achieve it? I would appreciate your input, we might be able to help you!

Nowhere have I said "I" was doing this. But I have said "I" don't understand the science behind this let alone what is actually happening on a deeper level (chromosomes, autosomes, etc) in breeding. I've never taken biology, I was more into physics and trades. Here I am today, a multi ticketed tradesman.

The only reason I injected myself here was to try and clear up the confusion between reversals and reverse breeding as I understood they were not the same.

I enjoy reading these threads but sometimes when I see something is clearly being misunderstood, I will try and get that little part corrected. Why? I'm not sure myself at this point.

My apologies if it seemed I was trying to come off smarter than I am, no intention there. I am what I am, but I am always trying to better myself and understand/learn.

Clearly you have a much higher understanding than I, I could not debate reverse breeding with you or anyone else. For you, it would be like trying to debate with a chimpanzee lol

 

[Donald Mallard]

Stop trolling me and stop trashing the thread RingtailCanyon i cant be more clear than that.

I have answered all your asking again several times your clearly not reading my responses and only here to create drama.

My information is correct.

but he quoted shanti , which is where he got the information he is telling you ,
so shanti doesnt know what is in mango haze hempy , is that what your saying now ?

i think it seems to be you not reading his responses clearly and doing the old "hes attacking me" , drama drama drama , as per usual ,

this is from some seed shanti sent me labeled mango haze ,
i have no idea about the lineage , i didnt care really , i was just growing it ,
but id definitely say it was my favorite of all the stuff i got from shanti ,
the inbred line wasnt too bad either ..

 

[Hammerhead]

Nowhere have I said "I" was doing this. But I have said "I" don't understand the science behind this let alone what is actually happening on a deeper level (chromosomes, autosomes, etc) in breeding. I've never taken biology, I was more into physics and trades. Here I am today, a multi ticketed tradesman.

The only reason I injected myself here was to try and clear up the confusion between reversals and reverse breeding as I understood they were not the same.

I enjoy reading these threads but sometimes when I see something is clearly being misunderstood, I will try and get that little part corrected. Why? I'm not sure myself at this point.

My apologies if it seemed I was trying to come off smarter than I am, no intention there. I am what I am, but I am always trying to better myself and understand/learn.

Clearly you have a much higher understanding than I, I could not debate reverse breeding with you or anyone else. For you, it would be like trying to debate with a chimpanzee lol

Same here. I think a lot has to do with a communication misunderstanding?. Our words can mean something other than we intended in other countries. We are only human. All that reverse breeding is foreign to me as well.

 

[Fitzera]

Same here. I think a lot has to do with a communication misunderstanding?. Our words can mean something other than we intended in other countries. We are only human. All that reverse breeding is foreign to me as well.

100%

I dont speak like I write, I try to articulate my writing in a way that there can't be confusion. But yes what someone else reads isn't always interpreted as intended.

I dont understand the reverse breeding, but the bit that i do understand..i get what the goal is and i think its pretty cool if it can be accomplished.

 

[gonanchoa]

Well, welcome to Alice in worderland! hahaha

I'm sry as well if sounded rude bc I'm usually pretty direct.

I have never had a lab but years ago I saw weird stuff and started learning about polyploids, reverse breeding, mutations and all that stuff. It's pretty amusing, reality beats fiction.

There is people on this forum who have dedicated lots of time studying the plant, you might ask them any doubt directly for better references, i kind of rely on memory and sometimes miss-out things; science sometimes has contradictory views is not always right and in cases there are conflicts of interests.

Ag companies have been working with polyploids for a century and weren't classed as GMO because it happened in nature and the DNA is doubled but didn't change (same information - no mutation).

 

[@hempy]

You started to grow Mango Haze in what 2011 or 2012 and i dont remember you posting in the Mr nice forum at CW were the test seed were offered and posted on in a specific thread for test growers.

What i remember is you attacking Mr Nice and Nevil at CW and all the old members of CW old OG lurking here know this and Now your an expert on Mr nice and the Mango Haze okay.

I got all my seed directly from Shanti to no big deal but unlike you and any others posting here i grew the TEST SEED not one of you here has.

I read the first reports coming in and people complaining that the new Mango haze was different to the Beta version.

No one knew that the Mango Haze had a Sk x HzA father and the first i knew of it was from Nevil.

Then at a later date researching i found Shanti had finally spilled the beans so to speak.

JohnnyChicago fully understands what differences HzA and HzC brings to the table.

You guys clearly dont and if you had grown as many of the different Mr Nice Haze lines and Nevils lines as i have some having only HzC as a father you would also know the differences in the plants.

Test Seed.

HzA Leaning Mango Haze father side.

HzC leaning plant like 122

I can post full plant pics to but the flowers is all one needs to see.

A Key point is if the released version of Mango Haze is a inbreed version of the Beta seed (Test Seed ) and it originally used a Sk x HzA male then it should still be 5HzC - Sk x HzA as it was INBREED.

You cant start with a Sk x HzA father inbreed it and then have it changes to Sk xHzC or visa versa.

 

[Piff_cat]

i am def not best at explaining stuff and can get too in depth/wordy. in a very simple explanation for reverse breeding. you cross haze a to nl5 as f1. 10 chromosomes will be haze a 10 will be nl5. now in normal breeding these 20 chromosomes are forever linked if you self them or make f2 the process of meiosis splits the chromosomes up they cross genetic material and are now forever mixed. you can keep selecting haze a phenos and get some nice plants but every breeding will intertwine nl5 and haze a more and more the unqiue allele combinations that made haze a male or a5 f1 special are lost you can make good breeding still but you will never untangle them. this is all due to meiosis. this is what nev meant when he said the price for backcrossing haze c to a5 reduced special plants to 1 in 20 . now what if you could stop the mixing? instead of untangling the extension cord, make the extension cord never exist. rewind to the time when haze a chromosomes were unsullied by ln5. this is reverse breeding. the protocol that needs to be developed is how to stop meiosis. it has been done in other plants it is scientifically possible it just needs to be adapted for cannabis. nev always said he should have crossed fh female to haze a. why would he want to do that if it was"inbreeding"? because it would allow for many many combinations of primal haze alleles. in this case we want the mixing becuase there is no foreign material to dilute it like in nevs haze. and he thought fh was a generation earlier. at some point moving backwards you will reach the wild progenitor. the wild progenitor is responsible for terpene profile/synthase and cannabind profile/synthase. nothing happens by accident in nature the terpenes and cannabinoids a plant produces are secondary metabolites, meaning they are not needed to survive and reproduce. they enhance survival odds with defense . so these wild prpgenitors environment is what creates these secondary metabolites. even just with the piffcon results certain profiles have begun to appear and these are f1 f2 s1 etc. if we make enough different combinations of only primal haze chromosomes eventually the "founder alleles" will pop out in the wash. and that is my goal

 

[Piff_cat]

heres a picture from a great slideshow. i am not a scientist either just trying to put stuff together like nev. pictures usually help me. if you did this process to known surviving haze a f1s you could also put those together or even better line breed the new haze a lines to existing haze a hybrids keeping haze on both sides of pedigree. another benefit is the bld portion would come out too. nl5 would be nice to have. nev worked with what he had, haze a had been dead for a long time. he was only working with very small portion of existing haze a alleles as i pointed out in my original post. his main problem with inbreeding haze was catpiss phenos from haze c and losing haze alleles thru recombination, this process is designed to restore alleles

 

[Donald Mallard]

You started to grow Mango Haze in what 2011 or 2012 and i dont remember you posting in the Mr nice forum at CW were the test seed were offered and posted on in a specific thread for test growers.

What i remember is you attacking Mr Nice and Nevil at CW and all the old members of CW old OG lurking here know this and Now your an expert on Mr nice and the Mango Haze okay.

I got all my seed directly from Shanti to no big deal but unlike you and any others posting here i grew the TEST SEED not one of you here has.

I read the first reports coming in and people complaining that the new Mango haze was different to the Beta version.

No one knew that the Mango Haze had a Sk x HzA father and the first i knew of it was from Nevil.

Then at a later date researching i found Shanti had finally spilled the beans so to speak.

JohnnyChicago fully understands what differences HzA and HzC brings to the table.

You guys clearly dont and if you had grown as many of the different Mr Nice Haze lines and Nevils lines as i have some having only HzC as a father you would also know the differences in the plants.

Test Seed.

HzA Leaning Mango Haze father side.

I can post full plant pics to but the flowers is all one needs to see.

A Key point is if the released version of Mango Haze is a inbreed version of the Beta seed (Test Seed ) and it originally used a Sk x HzA male then it should still be 5HzC - Sk x HzA as it was INBREED.

You cant start with a Sk x HzA father inbreed it and then have it changes to Sk xHzC or visa versa.

is that directed at me ??
i dont see any name mentioned ,
and i never even spoke to anyone at mr nice at cw ,
so couldnt be me , can you find anyone to back you up with this hempy , or is this going to be like those other things you accused me of,
like swinging off nevils balls and when asked for proof you couldnt find any because it never happened ,
unless your memory is going on you again like when i got a member here banned for sharing seeds which also never happened ...

first interest i had was around 2011 ,
and i spoke with shanti and got some seed,
quite a bit actually , two orders were in the hundreds of seed mark ..

are we sposed to bow down to you all mighty mango haze seed tester ??
i see you focus a lot on that one ,
must make u feel a bit special or something mate ??


i reckon you have me mixed up with someone else mate,
i am and always have been wallyduck ...

i said i dont even care what the lineage is , i just grew the stuff ,
i was referring to ringtails post that was a quote from shanti that you seem to not be able to see ,
where he mentions the lineage ,, go fight it out with him since he must be wrong about his own variety ....

 

[RingtailCanyon]

No one knew that the Mango Haze had a Sk x HzA father and the first i knew of it was from Nevil.

Then at a later date researching i found Shanti had finally spilled the beans so to speak.

You guys clearly dont and if you had grown as many of the different Mr Nice Haze lines and Nevils lines as i have some having only HzC as a father you would also know the differences in the plants.

Test Seed.

HzA Leaning Mango Haze father side.



A Key point is if the released version of Mango Haze is a inbreed version of the Beta seed (Test Seed ) and it originally used a Sk x HzA male then it should still be 5HzC - Sk x HzA as it was INBREED.

You cant start with a Sk x HzA father inbreed it and then have it changes to Sk xHzC or visa versa.

He’s been saying it was Skunk haze A since 2007. Way before nevil came online. You’re shooting blanks hempy. Where did he say he changed it from your famous “beta” version?

May 31, 2007

• Add bookmark
• #27

Hi All

just to clear the air from confusion and before you all go making a legend from myth here is how it was done and is done still....

Nh is made from Haze C male which is made by two pure haze parents from 1969....then the female side of NH is made from Haze A combined to NL5 or NL5Haze A where Haze A was also made by two pure Haze parents also from 1969

Haze A is no longer alive only Haze C male is along with several other different sativa lines.

but plants with the lineage of Haze A are still alive and carrying the genes within.

SSH is made up of Haze C combined to Skunk 1 or Skunk HzC which is the male side, the female side is Haze C combined to NL5 or NL5HzC

the Mango comes from a parallel cross same as SSH but with one difference

Haze A male combined to Sk 1 or Sk HzA being the male plant, the female is NL5HzC....that is the breeding of those three plants

considering the Haze A is no longer a male alive, it still is alive in the ancestry of some of the plants used in all these breeds

I do not have secrets about breeding but given the same seed batches we could all still create something different...it boils down to selection.

La Nina is the widow father breed to a pure Haze female...neither A or C by the way so I hope that clears up all your doubts once and for all.

There is no one other than Simon at serious seeds who follows breeding plants like we do.Most Dutch seed companies use females plants obtained from seed batches that were passed on to them or sent to them, making their origins a little doubtful at certain stages. The whole seed industry based alot of things on Neville's origins in fact , but none except Sensi Seed had the parent plants to replicate things time and time again. Whether plants dies or were lost to disease over the years...well most companies would probably not tell anyone, but think about it.How many back ups of parent plants would you need in how many countries to be sure never to loose an important line? As enforcement on growers gets more and more restricting rooms get found etc....and the law of averages catches up on you. My last problem with the Swiss authorities I lost all plants in my library...some 42 mum's and dad's...luckily we keep backup of all the most important plants in 5 different countries and have done for years...if we had not had done this then we too would have lost alot of heirlooms. I do keep original batches of seed from years ago also in several places just in case I have to go all the way back to the drawing board to do selection again...but that is as bad as it gets for us.

As you can see it is alot of work in alot of places to just keep things alive...not to mention the expenses and time factor involved.

Lastly just to clarify things to do with this site...well I do all the moderating alone plus the pms and all questions and answers....so if there is something wrong on this site it is me who made it. I have a webman to do the technical aspects but all content and daily admin of the site is up to me. Howard will be helping in a limited way one day but he is a busier person than anyone else I know. Nev is not one for public life or cyberspace...and due to family committments is happy to do some work on plants but nothing else.So I am afraid you are all dealing with Shantibaba...whether you like it or not.

All the best now off to Bologna for a 3 day fair....take care

 

[@hempy]

Think about it how do you inbreed a cannabis line that starts off as a 5HzC x SkHzA and then ends up as 5HzC x SkHzC ?

Or inbreed a 5HzC x SkHzC (as you lot claim) and have it MAGICALLY turn into a 5HzC x SkHzA.

Its impossible so lets move on shall we.

 

[harvestreaper]

for us uneducated a nice pic the best part of any book lol.....24 week todds haze pheno 7 ..good and strong

 

[Stocktont]

You started to grow Mango Haze in what 2011 or 2012 and i dont remember you posting in the Mr nice forum at CW were the test seed were offered and posted on in a specific thread for test growers.

What i remember is you attacking Mr Nice and Nevil at CW and all the old members of CW old OG lurking here know this and Now your an expert on Mr nice and the Mango Haze okay.

I got all my seed directly from Shanti to no big deal but unlike you and any others posting here i grew the TEST SEED not one of you here has.

I read the first reports coming in and people complaining that the new Mango haze was different to the Beta version.

No one knew that the Mango Haze had a Sk x HzA father and the first i knew of it was from Nevil.

Then at a later date researching i found Shanti had finally spilled the beans so to speak.

JohnnyChicago fully understands what differences HzA and HzC brings to the table.

You guys clearly dont and if you had grown as many of the different Mr Nice Haze lines and Nevils lines as i have some having only HzC as a father you would also know the differences in the plants.

Test Seed.

HzA Leaning Mango Haze father side.




HzC leaning plant like 122




I can post full plant pics to but the flowers is all one needs to see.

A Key point is if the released version of Mango Haze is a inbreed version of the Beta seed (Test Seed ) and it originally used a Sk x HzA male then it should still be 5HzC - Sk x HzA as it was INBREED.

You cant start with a Sk x HzA father inbreed it and then have it changes to Sk xHzC or visa versa.

Why did Nevil post a conflicting linage of MH and then tell you (@Hempy) a different linage? He said the MH and SSH were both from the (NL5 x Haze C) x (Skunk#1 x Haze C) with the only difference being the selection of the female clone (NL5 x Haze C) where SSH has Nevil selection and MH has the female Nevil gave to Shantibaba and he made MH from. Nevil never posted that there were any Haze A in the linage of either SSH or MH. Tell us what you mean by ”Nevil told me” as if that is true then Nevil posted something that wasn’t true (and he knew it as he told you the truth) to the world and then he told you the real truth so you would have the whole picture” LOL you’re just too much… You are the one that should stop speaking for Nevil and disclosing all that private information he gave you in PRIVATE. But now you’re also implying that he misled us all to give you the real truth… that my friend is really not cool. You have accused me of ”hating Nevil” but you’re the one that keeps dragging his memory and name through the mud. I find that repulsive as I told you before, I really liked to grow his seeds and smoke his selections when I could back in the 90s in Amsterdam and other places in Europe. You’re the one that came late to the haze hybrid party. Hell me and anyone else that came to the party in the 90s were late too but you seem to think ”haze history” begins and ends with you. It doesn’t!

Shanti has said so many things that conflict with each other that it’s hard to listen to any kind of linage from him. He said that MH was the same as above, as Nevil said, he also said that MH had Skunk#1 x Haze A in it’s linage, he also said (as I posted yesterday) that SSH and MH BOTH ”incorporated” Haze A in their linage. That can’t all be true can it?

And now you are saying (@Hempy) that the test version AND the later released version of MH BOTH have Skunk#1 x Haze A in their linage and that the later released version is ”just an INBRED” version of the test seeds. So you’re not agreeing with either Nevil nor Shanti but you know as you got told by them. HILARIOUS!!

You seem to mis the point totally with this discussion as it is about if the things one breeder says can be right or not when he said different things that conflict and can’t both be true. Now you (@Hempy) have painted yourself into a corner where you’re arguing with your heroes and not with us here anymore. We here never said what the linage was but we read and paid attention over the years. You (@Hempy) are so big on ”my story never changed” well it has, more than on one occasion (Nevil collecting Haze in the US remember?) and so has that of the creator of MH. Who’s creating the myths here?

 

[Stocktont]

Think about it how do you inbreed a cannabis line that starts off as a 5HzC x SkHzA and then ends up as 5HzC x SkHzC ?

Or inbreed a 5HzC x SkHzC (as you lot claim) and have it MAGICALLY turn into a 5HzC x SkHzA.

Its impossible so lets move on shall we.

That is a question you should direct to your friend who seem to have this kind of problem, nice try though to turn it around hahaha

 

[Donald Mallard]

That is a question you should direct to your friend who seem to have this kind of problem, nice try though to turn it around hahaha

i find it a bit funny too stocktont,
the only one that posted lineage was ringtail,
and it was a quote from shanti ,

so in essence hempy is arguing against the guy who made the strain about the lineage of the strain,
while attacking everyone that tries to point it out ,
bit like a scorpion stinging itself to death really ... crazy stuff ,
i told him a few days ago to take a day off , maybe he needs at least a week .. lol ..

 

[willydread]

Just reading the last page got me high! LOL