The Haze discussion thread

[willydread]

Let's not exaggerate, Neville DEFINITELY had talent and intuition, and he certainly had a big heart, according to those who knew him well, but let's not forget that on the mns forum he said that Bubblegum was big bud, and a DNA strain (I don't remember if cannalope or c99) it was skunk ....
Obviously, all respect for Neville, certainly to him and Skunkman, the world of cannabis owes a lot, but we try to remain objective ...
Dj9, thanks for your words and info, really precious....

 

[bigtacofarmer]

One of the only things I disliked about reading on the MNS forums was that Nevil seemed to feel that pretty much every good strain was somehow linked to his genetics. And I understand that a huge amount of modern genetic can in fact be traced back to him. But being in denial that there are other breeders and world travelers working great lines that are in no way related always seemed a bit arrogant.

 

[ojd]

This is something Sam and Neville did/do and maybe were a bit out of touch of the new school and what others have achieved over the years, Neville much more than Sam as Sam has still been in the industry fully.
Both Sam and Neville are both responsible to help create an advance our industry hugely.
Like I've mentioned before we all got the seeds clones from somewhere/one and we are continuing that legend.
Haze is the best landrace phenos combined and the different Haze's are phenos dividing of to those landrace Thai, Columbian etc etc.

Respect to everyone who has helped build our industry and we learn more every day about this story

Peace

One of the only things I disliked about reading on the MNS forums was that Nevil seemed to feel that pretty much every good strain was somehow linked to his genetics. And I understand that a huge amount of modern genetic can in fact be traced back to him. But being in denial that there are other breeders and world travelers working great lines that are in no way related always seemed a bit arrogant.

 

[GoatCheese]

Funny do you know wat was found in the stock would take years to make. Sam got to holland in 84/85 he sold the stock not soon after infact months later..in actual fact wat nevil found actually matches up very well with the original legend and actually backs up wat nevil says quite well.
Also did you even know sam was never ther in the beginning.

Yea, Darky, we've been thru this already, mate. You seem like a cool dude so i don't wanna argue but simply put, imho, you seem to have very strong personal believes about the Haze-story, so strong that you seem to ignore some key detail written down by both Nevil and Sam.
First, here's what i replied to you the first time. Note the red bit.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=8762373&postcount=72

Come on..
Who do you think i'm gonna go with? Sam Skunkman who personally was there with Nevil or some dude from a grower forum? What do you think, my friend.

If Sam got some year in the 80's wrong then so what. He may care far less about the specific date he gave Nevil those seeds than many of us might think. I'm sure you know he isn't too big of a fan of Nevils' and vice versa.

If Sam says he made the Haze re-pro seeds himself and didn't give any original Haze Bros seeds to Nevil, why argue with that? I think we should take that as fact.

I'm sure he knows better than Nevil where those seeds came from, ay. And i'm not calling Nevil a bull shit artist, just saying he might have misunderstood something.

Nevil didn't have any problems admitting he got it wrong saying there's Thai in NL5, when NL Seattle Greg revealed it was actually Hawaiian, so i'm sure he wouldn't argue Sam about who really made those seeds.

I'm gonna see my way out now cause i'm not much of a Haze head myself like a said earlier.
Peace.

This is very simple:
1. Nevil clearly states the 60's year dates were written on ONE BAG OF SEEDS and he said their common ancestor was a Haze called the "Burning Bush".
2. Sam says the Burning Bush was his Haze plant and that even RCC smoked it in the States.
3. Sam says he started growing Haze in mid-70's, and that he didn't give original stock from the Haze Bros to Nevil
4. So the seeds Nevil thought were 60's seeds were infact re-pro seeds made by Sam with the Burning Bush-Haze
It's all there in these few quotes below.

[FONT=&quot]Well Bigherb, I wouldn't swear on a kilo of Haze Hash, that he told me that he grew them himself.
I seem to remember [/FONT][FONT=&quot]one batch had a number of years mixed together[/FONT][FONT=&quot] something like '66,'67,'68. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]A prominent ancestor was a thing called "Burning Bush".[/FONT][FONT=&quot] If Sam didn't grow burning bush then the person that did will be able to tell us more.
Everything useful was from before 1970. The one plant that came up from '70 batch, Omega, was at best 25% haze and didn't make the grade.
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]N[/FONT]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6699301&postcount=1232

[FONT=&quot]I just read all the posts from my last post #1945 to #2376.The seeds I sold to Nevil were all made by me mostly from Holland work.
I never sold any I collected from Haze I obtained from the Haze Bros. I sold my work.
J & G are the same guy. Almost all my OHaze seeds were from him.
I never sold any OHaze X S Indian Kerala or Thai as OHaze, I always called them OHaze X whatever.
Burning Bush was 100% pure OHaze I grew it in Calif and named it, RCC also smoked it with me, and loved it. That and another OHaze I called Cream De La Cream and another I called Mr Greasy even though it was a girl, it had very very streched laddery buds that even when dry and placed in a zip bag greased up the bag unbelievably, it was also hard to roll and keep a joint lit.
Nevil did not have OHaze seeds from before the 70's 80"s as he got his OHaze from me and I only sold him seeds I had made, all 100% OHaze, but not from the 60's or early 70's [/FONT][FONT=&quot]as I did not start making OHaze seeds until the mid 70's[/FONT][FONT=&quot]and in large amounts in the 80's in Holland[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot] I think I sold him seeds I made in Holland after 85'.[/FONT]
...

Here's Sam talking to another numb skull and telling he made his Haze seeds around mid 70's

You do not have first hand anything as none of the people at MNSeeds were even around when I showed Neville his first Original Haze, he had never seen it before, he told me so, it was in 84, and Shantibaba was not even in Holland. I like Shantibaba and he just does not know the facts because he was not here, and/or he has been misled by others.
As for anyone (if I got this right) implying that Original Haze clones from 1969 are used, and alive, that is plain insane, there are no Cannabis clones from 1969, that is for sure. But maybe he meant seeds from 1969? And not grown until the 80's? To be honest I do not know, except the only Original Haze seeds sold prior to the 80's were mine, That I made after 1976. One way or another something is not correct about the 1969 date, and that is what you are going on. As far as I know all Nevilles work with Haze was from Original Haze he got from me, thats what he told me anyway, back in the 80's.

-SamS

https://www.icmag.com/ic/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1536480

It's all there. Written down by both of them. End of story.

Peace

 

[ojd]

Why were the germ rates so bad if they were fresh seeds and made by someone who knows a thing or 2 about seeds and breeding ? I've seen Sam writen he has seeds that are 20 years old that still germ and I believe him as my first ever seeds still germinate nearly 20 years also.
Even if we were told they were badly stored etc whatever but I've never seen that been said by Sam.Sam has made many seeds and sold or given away X amount and I see alot old Dead seeds but that's out of Sam's hand once he gives to someone else if they dont store in the fridge correctly but surely sam would of known back then as he must of made a million seeds plus by then with these big Greenhouse runs etc etc.

Yea, Darky, we've been thru this already, mate. You seem like a cool dude so i don't wanna argue but simply put, imho, you seem to have very strong personal believes about the Haze-story, so strong that you seem to ignore some key detail written down by both Nevil and Sam.
First, here's what i replied to you the first time. Note the red bit.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=8762373&postcount=72


This is very simple:
1. Nevil clearly states the 60's year dates were written on ONE BAG OF SEEDS and he said their common ancestor was a Haze called the "Burning Bush".
2. Sam says the Burning Bush was his Haze plant and that even RCC smoked it in the States.
3. Sam says he started growing Haze in mid-70's, and that he didn't give original stock from the Haze Bros to Nevil
4. So the seeds Nevil thought were 60's seeds were infact re-pro seeds made by Sam with the Burning Bush-Haze
It's all there in these few quotes below.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6699301&postcount=1232


Here's Sam talking to another numb skull and telling he made his Haze seeds around mid 70's

https://www.icmag.com/ic/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1536480

It's all there. Written down by both of them. End of story.

Peace

 

[bigherb]

Goatcheese

You basically summed up , what I said many years ago

I posted all the quotes available numerous times , but some will still have opinions and different outlooks

The only difference Now is Sams has given more post/details and the information on
Burning Bush is different , he states now it is pure Colombian no Thai . The strain was offered in his 81 catalogue Soo it’s was clear this Haze had nothing to do with 69 seeds and thus my opinions and assumptions

The whole association with HzA and HzC having Thai to me all those years was because the post of Burning bush being Thai leaning and the thought of Haze being a four way hybrid. But now I believe it was Nevils assumption of his past experiences. He associated the Haze traits with Old Thai he had experienced in his youth

1luvbigherb

 

[bigherb]

Why were the germ rates so bad if they were fresh seeds and made by someone who knows a thing or 2 about seeds and breeding ? I've seen Sam writen he has seeds that are 20 years old that still germ and I believe him as my first ever seeds still germinate nearly 20 years also.
Even if we were told they were badly stored etc whatever but I've never seen that been said by Sam.Sam has made many seeds and sold or given away X amount and I see alot old Dead seeds but that's out of Sam's hand once he gives to someone else if they dont store in the fridge correctly but surely sam would of known back then as he must of made a million seeds plus by then with these big Greenhouse runs etc etc.

Ojd

Sup brother

I’m only giving my outlook and opinion , but if we will
Dissect and take literal of each post, dj9 states below

Hey there...as far as I know the A is still alive.
And yes I was around the castle many times during bulk deals but never met
any Dominicans . But I wasn't there every day of course. I lived 20 minutes up the road when I moved there, but stayed at the castle on my extended visits before that.
Nevil had about 100 Haze seeds from Sam. He asked for the oldest ones and bought the whole bag. He tried to start about a dozen and none started. So he threw them all in [yes threw] . 6 germinated ...1 died right away. A and C are famous. B was a female which to me had the classic Cali taste... I spent some time in Happy Camp Cal. in 82 and had tasted this there. But Nevil didn't care for it cause it flowered too quick and wasn't very Hazy

Nevil said he paid thousands of dollars for thousands of seeds

His friend now says it was about 100 . Thats Very very different

The first dozen didn’t germ and all the seeds were then thrown in emphasis on Threw in . Not at all any words I’d expect to hear regarding Highly reguarded very limited Old Seeds

I can dig deeper in this post , but it’s not necessary

Just my opinion

1luvbigherb

 

[TheDarkStorm]

Yea, Darky, we've been thru this already, mate. You seem like a cool dude so i don't wanna argue but simply put, imho, you seem to have very strong personal believes about the Haze-story, so strong that you seem to ignore some key detail written down by both Nevil and Sam.
First, here's what i replied to you the first time. Note the red bit.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=8762373&postcount=72


This is very simple:
1. Nevil clearly states the 60's year dates were written on ONE BAG OF SEEDS and he said their common ancestor was a Haze called the "Burning Bush".
2. Sam says the Burning Bush was his Haze plant and that even RCC smoked it in the States.
3. Sam says he started growing Haze in mid-70's, and that he didn't give original stock from the Haze Bros to Nevil
4. So the seeds Nevil thought were 60's seeds were infact re-pro seeds made by Sam with the Burning Bush-Haze
It's all there in these few quotes below.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6699301&postcount=1232


Here's Sam talking to another numb skull and telling he made his Haze seeds around mid 70's

https://www.icmag.com/ic/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1536480

It's all there. Written down by both of them. End of story.

Peace

Maybe this will make abit more sense to you if I tell you wat the original legend was that dates back to that earlier time...way before nevil revealed his side of the story...and im sure sam knows of the original legend quite well and mpst likely so does rcc

 

[bigherb]

Hempy

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with those old quotes

. I’m not sure who you will believe or can verify information that will satisfy you

Sams still post , he has numerous post saying all the Haze spread in Holland was pure Colombian. Pm him if it helps your conscious

You say you spoke with Nevil . I’m not sure about what

but Nevil basically confirmed at the forums in open post Unc Yosemite Sam knowledge of the OSH clone onlys . Anything regarding the Old Haze clones from Nevil . I think YS is the expert he has shared more information than anyone on the net and has pictures to support it


While I’m thankful your friend is sharing his experiences

His opinions and post are quite different from even Nevil himself. Soo don’t discredit others and highlight these post as gospel

Btw can we put to rest Mexican genetics have nothing to do with Original Haze . Neither does or did RCC

 

[dj9]

So it seems like its still around.
Good to know, thank you for the confirmation.
Could you maybe help elaborate the difference in hybrid vigour between the old Haze C hybrids and the newer versions available?
Genetically this outcome doesn’t add up.
Ive tried many of these modern Haze C hybrids myself and i found that compared to these C5 hybrids carry much more vigour. Doesn’t seem a logical outcome imho.
Do you think modern Haze C hybrids are a bit more “tweaked” to more modern expectations?

Hey Sammy
Hard to say. As you know because of what Nevil had he did the opposite of what usually works by crossing the Sat male into the Indicas.
Most people seem to have done it the other way ...trying to cross the Indica males into the Haze. It seems to loose vigor this way. The vigor and structure etc came from the Haze males. When done the other way you seem to end up with a lot of that horrible plasticine profile like with the Jack Herer. It gets in your pores. Most of the old Indicas were pretty burnt out but those Haze males brought them back to life. The trick of course
is finding an Indica without the rubber , plastic undertones ...which is very difficult.
Any time you see those thick burnt orange pistils , you know it has SK or NL/SK in it.
Of course all the NLs were crosses of the NL#1 with 10 different Sats so when crossing the Haze into them it seemed to hook up with those. So for instance, better if possible to find a good Haze male and bounce it off the Indicas in our experience.
That being said , the right Indica male to any of the good Nevils Haze females makes pure gold.
Structure , vigor, resistance ...come mostly from the males .

 

[TheDarkStorm]

Id like to do this alittle differently...now I know of a legend that dates back to the old haze brothers and sams time...perhaps big herb can help me here...hopefully he still has a link to his contact who told him the story which I say is almost spot on bar afew details an sam said this too...big herb maybe you can ask your contact wer the surfers wer from who gave g the seeds...an why if they only inbreed that plant once the plants stopped producing all of a sudden one season...also you confirmed in your story that g still had seeds....wasnt this due to them removing all the seeds from the stock.

 

[ojd]

There is thai in Haze 100% as I've grown many pure thai and hybrids and it defo provides that Lemon/ pine side of the x and the spice from Colombian
and if not where did that Lemon terp come from
Some thai you can think your smoking Haze from flavour effects

Goatcheese

You basically summed up , what I said many years ago

I posted all the quotes available numerous times , but some will still have opinions and different outlooks

The only difference Now is Sams has given more post/details and the information on
Burning Bush is different , he states now it is pure Colombian no Thai . The strain was offered in his 81 catalogue Soo it’s was clear this Haze had nothing to do with 69 seeds and thus my opinions and assumptions

The whole association with HzA and HzC having Thai to me all those years was because the post of Burning bush being Thai leaning and the thought of Haze being a four way hybrid. But now I believe it was Nevils assumption of his past experiences. He associated the Haze traits with Old Thai he had experienced in his youth

1luvbigherb

 

[ojd]

1 think I keep going over is if sam had more stock or made those actual seeds sold to Neville how come we have not seen anything surpassing some of the old NL5 Haze cuts and even the pure A and C original seeds ?

Funny do you know wat was found in the stock would take years to make. Sam got to holland in 84/85 he sold the stock not soon after infact months later..in actual fact wat nevil found actually matches up very well with the original legend and actually backs up wat nevil says quite well.
Also did you even know sam was never ther in the beginning.

 

[dj9]

Ojd

Sup brother

I’m only giving my outlook and opinion , but if we will
Dissect and take literal of each post, dj9 states below




Nevil said he paid thousands of dollars for thousands of seeds

His friend now says it was about 100 . Thats Very very different

The first dozen didn’t germ and all the seeds were then thrown in emphasis on Threw in . Not at all any words I’d expect to hear regarding Highly reguarded very limited Old Seeds

I can dig deeper in this post , but it’s not necessary

Just my opinion

1luvbigherb

Hi Herb,
I saw about 100 seeds. I am just telling what I saw.
Nevil was starting seeds by the hundreds. There was no
ooh this is special ...be very careful. You had to be there.
They all went on the plates and were labeled ..that's it.
Nevil also told me he had bought a big bag of seeds but showed
me a bag of about a hundred.
I am not going to look up every post Nevil made to make sure I follow
step by step and don't contradict a word. Nevil and I were good friends from 1985 till the day he passed. We had our own opinions on the whole scene. As for numbers etc ….I am sure Nevil told the truth , so if I made a mistake ..well I,m sorry. I lived 20 minutes away . I was at the castle nearly every day for something or other. Its hard to remember every detail ...it was just daily life. Getting the Haze seeds was no bigger deal the the NLs or any other strain he got at the time. He wasn't pleased that so few were starting. They wernt that old ...its like us starting things from 2005. I just got on here and your trying to discredit me on small technicalities? Too bad, that shoot the messenger is still a thing here. If someone finds a post that contradicts something I say I am more than happy to look at it straighten it out as I have said. I would have thought people would be interested in another perspective on the whole scene.
100 seeds or 1000 seeds ...whats the difference ...no one cares . They produced 5 plants.
Well 6 but 1 died right away.

 

[dj9]

1 think I keep going over is if sam had more stock or made those actual seeds sold to Neville how come we have not seen anything surpassing some of the old NL5 Haze cuts and even the pure A and C original seeds ?

Its because he didn't have anymore. Your right.
Common sense. And regretted selling those ever since
D

 

[Hemphrey Bogart]

From what I’ve read, Nev said Sam was pretty desperate for money when he sold those seeds to him. I think he said Sam, his wife and kid was all living in a flat with Wernard...which was a less than ideal situation for Wernard, lol...at least according to Nev.

HB.

 

[bigherb]

There is thai in Haze 100% as I've grown many pure thai and hybrids and it defo provides that Lemon/ pine side of the x and the spice from Colombian
and if not where did that Lemon terp come from
Some thai you can think your smoking Haze from flavour effects

Only thing 100% is death

I’ve no experience with Original Haze other than 2 premature Tom Hills Haze grown outdoors in NYC . I’ve never Hear or can’t ever recall lemon traits in Original Haze

I was Told the True Origins by an apprentice/ friend of G the originator of Original Haze . His story was always it was 100% Punto Rojo crossed to itself .

Sams later states Original Haze was pure Colombian / a three way Colombian. G the originator never crossed Punto Rojo . RL the partner crossed a few plants of Thai and even less S.Indian only one year

We all have our opinions

1luvbigherb

 

[dj9]

From what I’ve read, Nev said Sam was pretty desperate for money when he sold those seeds to him. I think he said Sam, his wife and kid was all living in a flat with Wernard...which was a less than ideal situation for Wernard, lol...at least according to Nev.

HB.

Yes Hemphrey ..that's how I remember it.
I think Sam didn't even know exactly what he had.
Just an opinion of course.
D

 

[ojd]

Dj69 knows alot of info but is not Neville himself.
Sam has also stated only seeds then clones so there are some mistakes or forgotten details on both sides.
To me both Neville and Sam want all the credit but both of these legends made Haze a household name with Sam passing the Haze to Neville and then Neville going to work like machine churning out Hazes and seed by the kilo after kilo

Ojd

Sup brother

I’m only giving my outlook and opinion , but if we will
Dissect and take literal of each post, dj9 states below




Nevil said he paid thousands of dollars for thousands of seeds

His friend now says it was about 100 . Thats Very very different

The first dozen didn’t germ and all the seeds were then thrown in emphasis on Threw in . Not at all any words I’d expect to hear regarding Highly reguarded very limited Old Seeds

I can dig deeper in this post , but it’s not necessary

Just my opinion

1luvbigherb

 

[dj9]

Only thing 100% is death

I’ve no experience with Original Haze other than 2 premature To
Hills Haze grown outdoors in NYC . I’ve never Hear or can’t ever recall lemon traits in Original Haze

I was Toms the True Origins by an apprentice/ friend of G the originator of Original Haze . His story was always it was 100% Punto Rojo crossed to itself .

Sams later states Original Haze was pure Colombian / a three way Colombian. G the originator never crossed Punto Rojo . RL the partner crossed a few plants of Thai and even less S.Indian only one year

We all have our opinions

1luvbigherb

Heres one for you Herb.
Its actually none of those.
Its a pure strain. I wont say where its from yet.
Of course Colombos etc were crossed into in but the real Haze is 1 strain.
I found it after 35 years of searching.
And it was right where I always thought it would be.
I will post pics . Was a bitter sweet moment to find this
just 6 months after Nevil passed. But I felt Nevil guided
me toward it, cause it went so easy and matter of fact.
D