The growing large plants, outdoors, thread...

[BotanicalBill]

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[planty]

BotanicalBill - i need to fly you out to my ranch so we can develop that type of thing in to a product LOL.

 

[BotanicalBill]

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[localhero]

valve gates at each bed. soil water meters at each bed. you know even if they were crappy meters, they wouldnt have to be 100% accurate. youd basically be using it to get a roundabout understanding of when a plant needs watering. bigger more demanding plants would be fed accordingly. you wouldnt over water smaller plants with a one size fits all drip aproach.

i think the time to follow that dream has arrived man. im sure theres alot of people like planty who use the same location yearly. having a one time setup like that would be pretty ideal.

 

[planty]

You'd be surprised what you read in the paper here..

 

[planty]

Dude that one solstice timer...I want to build that let me know what I need to buy!!

 

[Dr. Purpur]

You'd be surprised what you read in the paper here..

Musta been something else

 

[Private Joker]

Paragon makes timers that will adjust every day to the exact sunset/sunrise time. Just tell it what day/time it is and where you are and away you go. Kinda spendy tho.

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4WZ42?Pid=search

 

[planty]

That would be awesome if I could have it come down a few hours before and then weekly have it know to knock some time off by itself...

Tom - 3 zones hooked up so far and everything works. Will have the other 3 zones, fencing, and supplemental light hooked up by the end of the week and planting this sunday. Bunch of 3.5' bomb threats I think I may do nothin but...though I'm not sure how I feel about having just one thing..even if its the threat..All the plants I have are pretty much equal in stature, health etc. ... I just love that BT...When I toke some I just think " Fuck the other stuff... "

 

[MedResearcher]

Another idea along those lines I had considered indoors was, assuming the fact that it's the amount of darkness that triggers flowering, not hours of light, which has always been my understandingm, I often wondered if you could decrease the total number of daylight hours to say 10 hours a day, but still keep it for 12 hours of darkness. This would knock off 14 hours from a plant's cycle a week(2 hours x 7 days), so in one 'real' month you're essentially really in the flowering cycle for 1 month + 2 days. After 2 months you've knocked off 4 days, and after a full year you're at 24 days extra of flowering. Obviously you're losing daylight and as a result yield, but I often wondered if being able to get almost another half-flowering cycle a year in to each calendar year would offset those benefits.. I never went through the hassle but it's just one more example of the endless possibilities with having total control..

BB

About 9 years ago or so, the clerk in a hydro store showed me a controller that could manipulate the photo period just like you described above. You could manipulate it to change the normal 24 hour day to less or more. So you could run 20 hour days, or 30 hour days or any amount you desire. I heard it does work as far as harvesting faster or slower and that the yield just drops or raises. Like you could harvest a 45 day strain in 40, but have less yield by running 20 hour days (12 off, 8 on), or the opposite run a 45 and harvest in 50 running 30 hour days (12 off, 18 on). Just hearsay, but I did see the controller.

 

[nomaad]

If they make a reliable soil moisture tester that puts out an electrical signal (4-20ma, 0-5V, 0-10V are common) then you could definitely make a smart watering system. One method of doing it is buying some HVAC control hardware (glorified PLCs) such as an Andover Controls LCX 810 which has I believe 8 analog/digital inputs, and 8 digital outputs. Wire the soil meters to the inputs, wire solenoids for the valves to the outputs, write a handful of lines of software, and away you go. You could take it farther and wire some potentiometers as well on the inputs that could serve as a "watering setpoint" for each zone so you wouldn't have to fire up a laptop every time you wanted to change the point at which watering occurs. I was in the HVAC controls industry for years and did this sort of thing all the time..

this is what I was loosely envisioning when I said it would involve a laptop. Awesome that the I/O interface that is perfect for it already exists! nice one, BBill.

 

[Tom Hill]

Hi all,

I got a heads-up from a friend along the lines that alternate higher temperature feeding schedules should be addressed. I won't mention names, but he is most welcome to give his thoughts on this too, it's an interesting topic imo.

Here are some of my thoughts and it may perhaps relate to some of this auto water scheduling conversation.

It's not solely about watering when the soil is drier. There may be many factors that the farmer might take into consideration when deciding whether to water a bit early or late, to feed, and how much, etc, etc. The weather forecast I always have an eye on - and my meters too.

When soil temps rise, so does the availability of plant nutrient ions (look at all the light green plants in the cool countries to the north forums) - same thing happens when oxygen levels rise - more nutrients become available.

Here are two typical scenarios that may influence the farmer's maintenance decisions processes.

1) It's time to feed. It's early spring and forecast calls for 10 days of snotty cold weather. I might feed rather heavy in this scenario, then let the soil run rather to the dry side over this period as well.

2) It's the dog days of summer, time to feed but hot as hell. I might feed rather lightly in this scenario, then keep the soil rather to the moist end over this period as well.

I'll be damned, it looks like Bill's sensor in that above edit may be able to take into account some of these things that should be going through the farmers mind as he's making these types of decisions. Well, except for the forecast that is.

Got another one plugged

Hogan400, we'll show you ours if you show us yours

Here is an example of unhappy plants, came out of 5's, spent too long in em. They will turn around and balance out. 10-14 days is the expected timeframe for recovery. -T

 

[planty]

I'm sure a lot of people would be stoked to have your pissed starts

 

[localhero]

you sure you put the right pic in Tom?

 

[Tom Hill]

OK OK

Here is a more severe example, these plants are upset, they are having problems with transpiration rates due to insufficient root matter, too much up top. The are wanting to shut down and shed leaves. But, the same clone, smaller, same transplant day, same soil, same site, coming out of the same greenhouse etc, etc, are having no problems at all, very happy. It happens, but it is much preferred that it's happening now than sucking up two weeks of June.

I'm plugging another garden in the next few days. I think I'll go ahead and give cloning wax a try maybe, it should help quite a bit. Too late for these though I reckon. But they'll be fine in due time.

 

[Julian]

Hi all,
I got a heads-up from a friend along the lines that alternate higher temperature feeding schedules should be addressed. I won't mention names, but he is most welcome to give his thoughts on this too, it's an interesting topic imo.

Here are some of my thoughts and it may perhaps relate to some of this auto water scheduling conversation.

When soil temps rise, so does the availability of plant nutrient ions (look at all the light green plants in the cool countries to the north forums) - same thing happens when oxygen levels rise - more nutrients become available.

2) It's the dog days of summer, time to feed but hot as hell. I might feed rather lightly in this scenario, then keep the soil rather to the moist end over this period as well.

Hey Tom. Thank you. The above and earlier mentioned addressing more the specifics of scenario 2, as new to the California controlled daily access environment. I believe I had heard you state somewhere at sometime in the past regarding the above, backing off on feeding (dietary, levels) during extreme heat periods. (100's, high 100's, even 110+, etc...) I also then further wondered whether the option of lighter day to day feedings (waterings) might be better than the typical schedule if currently less. (daily reduction of temps of containers, medium.) Regardless of source (water) temps, I would think an easy 20-40 degree reduction in container temps right there.) Am no stranger to such heat levels, but in ground (right there a reduction in temps) pre prepped without day to day access/feedings, so, as above, a completely different matter/environment. (And due to specifics of such locations, another factor being probably used to, in such periods, a much, much higher humidity than CA, be that good or bad)

I mentioned this because did notice last year (or year before?) quite a few in CA having problems with such periods and lead me to wonder about the above issues. (And , who knows, maybe some of those issues due to the opposite...ie: pushing them harder instead of backing off....)

Of course, level of moisture present another matter, but stated about "rather to the moist end over this period", which seems with containers being run, aeration and drainage helping out in the process so not an issue, with the bottom line being diet and consumption (water) proportionate to plant size and conditions, etc...

This arena your guys game ..so....I'm just listening and along for the ride...Coming in (CA) late, so.......if able to share, will, and first to acknowledge will be due to yourself and all others input on methods and specifics. Thanks for letting me play too .

 

[BotanicalBill]

I know there's no 'right' answer to this question since everyone has their own initially fertilized soil mixes so this answer may be directed a bit towards Tom since i'm roughly using his formula posted at the beginning of this thread but I'd love to hear anyone's regimen that cares to share.

I imagine that the initial fertilizing isn't all that's being used for the entire season so I'm curious about just a few things and heavy detail isn't really needed.

#1 When do you generally start additional feedings after the initial planting, assuming you're planting in mid mid-May or June?

#2 Are you doing heavy or light doses of feeding?

#3 How frequently are you using fertilizer? In my case I'll probably be watering at least twice a week come late June once it gets quite a bit warmer so I'm wondering if I should be feeding right away with every watering, not even bothering until July sometime, etc..
Just some rough guidelines would be more than appreciated. I'm sure I'll be going by feel most of the time but I'm curious as to how long our initial 100-120 gallon-fertilized soil is generally good for. Back in 2000 or so I was using Vic Highs Super soil indoors and it went somewhat start to finish without adding anything but water but I assume trees need supplemental feedings..

Thanks
BB

 

[nomaad]

I generally get 2-3 weeks of nutrients in fresh bag soil in smaller pots... Pretty sure that Tom's mix and, because they are based on Tom's mix, many of the other mixes discussed in this thread, are designed to obviate the need for feeding during veg. I did not mix up anything so sophisticated. (Bag dirt+Age Old Dry Grow+Alfalfa+Perlite.) I will probably start feeding in late June... assuming I transplant as planned before the end of May and there are no shock issues. I'll concentrate my feeding at first toward the center of the pot and water only toward the outside until the plant seems to have really grown into the pot. Does this make sense?

Tom, do you think that the "sad" plant issue you're experiencing could be dealt with by heavily pruning the start before transplant. All of my full season Blue Dreams are in 10 gallon pots and totally happy, but I have a number of Clueberries in 5's that just won't perk up. I attributed the sadness to cold and getting moved around. They are in smartpots... the air pruning done by the pots seems like it might exacerbate the problem... airpruning=less roots, right?

BBill: if there were any time to put yourself out there designing systems for this industry, its now. I would say go for it.

 

[localhero]

Yeah man, heres something that might help:

http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=9903750&pfx=

"Monitor the moisture available to your plants with this meter and sensor (sold separately at right). Use the meter to effectively schedule irrigation according to the plants' requirements. Prevents soil spoilage due to excessive water and poor drainage by continually monitoring soil moisture. Meter also helps to eliminate under-irrigation--making fertilizer applications more efficient.
The meter is housed in a rugged ABS plastic case. It features reliable, temperature-stable semiconductor technology with an internal battery and calibration check. The membrane front panel is easy to use. Spring-loaded binding posts allow positive contact with the sensor.
Sensor is made from gypsum, cast around two stainless steel electrodes. Bury the sensors at different levels, based on the plant's root depth. Connect the lead wires to the meter and get immediate readings of available soil moisture. A convenient carrying case and irrigation charts are included."


I dont know how but it seems that if you can have ten sensors to one machine and these things can be burried and kept burried, that you could rig this to do what you were talking about.

I know Tom would apreciate the gypsum

 

[Dr. Purpur]

Thats $315.00 for each meter. That would get expensive real fast in a big garden, but, It would be fun as hell to set something up with a dedicated PC to control all watering and feed schedule as well. I love automated stuff. We use alot of PLCs where I work.