The Dangers of Bat Guano

[maryjohn]

Well it's quite a can of worms to balance the needs of development vs. environmental cocerns. I wonder what the standard actually is.

Then there is the hypocrisy if the developed world: we profited from changing the ecosystems but te developing world has to pay for our excess.

 

[Microbeman]

Difficult to find anything factual concerning the method of harvest, the knowledge the Indigenous workers actually have, the history of the natives with the harvest, what percentage goes to Oxfam; to the natives; to the company, how it is ascertained to be ethical. I know that in my country, the fur trapping trade is bolstered because it is part of the Indigenous peoples' tradition but in fact they rarely engaged in the activity until white people started telling them to and giving them sugar, booze and flour in trade (the precursors of diabetes).
Caveman/Oxfam advertising mentions 'fungicidal and nematocidal ingredients'. I do hope this is certainly not true.

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/shop/content/help/aboutfairtrade.aspx

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/shop/ethical-collection-home-and-garden/HN246239

http://cavemans.wordpress.com

 

[GeneticHeirloom]

Lets not forget greensand. It is a finite resource.
RM

Greensand is a By-product of Water softener crystals.

I talked personally to the Site owner of the purest Greensand in New Jersey, and when questioned how much is available, laughed and said...

" I use it to refill the holes"

Greensand is a by-product of manufacturing water softener crystals.

A ton of New Jersey 96% pure Greensand is $40 dollars.

Greensand is good, production of soft water crystals is bad.

If it wasn't for the water softener, they wouldn't have the mines at all.

 

[Dr Dog]

it makes sense to me, so I will stop using Bat guano immediately

 

[mrred]

ace ventura, pet detective

 

[VerdantGreen]

Firstly I would like to applaud anyone who changes the way they grow weed or changes any other aspect of their life out of respect for ethics and/or the environment.

Difficult to find anything factual concerning the method of harvest, the knowledge the Indigenous workers actually have, the history of the natives with the harvest, what percentage goes to Oxfam; to the natives; to the company, how it is ascertained to be ethical. I know that in my country, the fur trapping trade is bolstered because it is part of the Indigenous peoples' tradition but in fact they rarely engaged in the activity until white people started telling them to and giving them sugar, booze and flour in trade (the precursors of diabetes).
Caveman/Oxfam advertising mentions 'fungicidal and nematocidal ingredients'. I do hope this is certainly not true.

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/shop/content/help/aboutfairtrade.aspx

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/shop/ethical-collection-home-and-garden/HN246239

http://cavemans.wordpress.com

Actually Mm this document lays out their policy pretty clearly and as you can see they are pretty rigorous in their criteria.
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/resources/suppliers/ethicalpurchasing.htm
I must say I am generally bemused by and weary of the way that some people seem to jump on those who are trying to do the right thing or make a difference, and attempt to undermine them. I don’t see that it serves any positive purpose and indeed just serves to dissuade people from trying to be ethical.

I personally prefer to support and encourage those who are taking steps in the right direction. I’m not a member of Oxfam but I am a member of some comparable charities and I know for sure that there actually are people in the world who will devote themselves to helping others and making the world a better place. Not trying to say I’m on the front line of these battles but I take a more active role than most in campaigning/making a contribution. I think Oxfam’s approach of working with the local people (who supply the products) towards them earning a living wage sustainably within their environment is much better than the typical western arrogance and imperialism of ,having already sold our planet down the river themselves, bullying and threatening other people to do what they say.

You seem to be implying that Oxfam, a charity who have been fighting poverty and encouraging ethics and sustainability for some 70 years, might betray all their principles in order to sell some bags of guano –either that or that they would somehow drop the ball and be naïve enough to not follow their own vetting procedure. I just don’t see this happening, after all the money they make from selling the guano will only be spent trying to achieve their goals anyway – would would be the logic in them betraying their mission in order to make money to achieve their mission?

If you were casting aspersions on some oil company or multi-national that was paying lip-service to the environment then I would probably take you a lot more seriously – but I feel that a charity with the global credibility of Oxfam deserve some trust or at least suspension of disbelief . If you are doubting their credentials then I’m afraid the burden of proof is upon you, and that they have earned the right to be innocent until proven guilty.

I have followed the debate about caveman’s guano for the last year or so and saw very well for myself how some outspoken naysayers have used him as an easy target to help boost their online eco-credentials. He probably realised that nothing he could say would convince these people – and what a master stroke he has pulled by not only gaining the endorsement of Oxfam but actually having them stock his product as part of their pioneering ethical/sustainable collection. All power to him imo.

I’m sure you are right about the fur issue, having been a vegetarian for more than 20 years I don’t think I’ve ever worn it, but to make a valid comparison to the caveman guano issue it would really have to be an anti animal cruelty charity selling the end product.

sincerely

V.

 

[ol toby]

how do you guys feel about locally harvested guano from bat houses? Seems like anyway you look at it, taking nutrient sources from one system and transplanting them to another is going to cause some disturbance. With small scale local harvesting you're bypassing all of the packaging, shipping, pencil pushing, etc.

Anyways, I only keep such strong nutrient sources around for extremely hungry plants, and mostly use healthy soil ammended with homemade worm castings and watered occasionally with herbal ferments and aerated teas. With the right genetics this seems to work better for me.

 

[Microbeman]

V; I have put absolutely no emotion into this whatsoever and have drawn no conclusions. I have merely posted the sellers' links and stated the information I found lacking. I did draw a parallel to similar wording I have heard as regards industry which supposedly supports native peoples. As for charities, I ran a couple of them for around 20 years (reason why I'm so broke:>)

Perhaps the link you have provided addresses the missing facts but the links I posted gives only lip service to the words people want to hear, like; "gathered from Indonesian bat caves by families local to the mining area who understand the delicate natural balance of the bats and their ecosystem"

You may be correct, maybe it is really environmentally sound and a help to the bats and good for the locals and really great stuff. If you have followed this debate for the last year perhaps you could post the facts instead of addressing me. BTW; what do you think of the 'fungicidal and nematocidal ingredients' statement?

 

[otherwhitemeat]

I'd like to hear more about reasonable substitutes. I just started using Guano teas and it's a messy propositition. Chicken manure, alfalfa, etc---sound very attractive, especially when compared to Guanos. I watched a great show on cave ecosystems this weekend and wondered how our guano can be harvested without impact on some of the delicate species that can exist on evolutionary 'islands'

If one uses the LC mix as basis, does anyone have subsitutes for the Indodesian, Mexican, Jamaican, and PSG?

 

[VerdantGreen]

owm - i use guano as a soil amendment rather than for teas - 20-40g per gallon of soil.

on some occasions listed buildings etc have to have guano removed because it is literally bursting the structure, other caves are inhabited by bats seasonally and so can have the guano removed when the bats arent present - question your supplier closely. we are lucky in UK to have cavemans as a source. imo any kind of manure properly used will have a great effect on your grows - something about animal manure that beats all other ferts from my experience.

V.

Microbeman - there is really no such thing as 'facts' online - just claims, so we have to satisfy ourselves as best we can about the credibility of those making the claims, and those casting the aspersions.

 

[Microbeman]

I'd like to hear more about reasonable substitutes. I just started using Guano teas and it's a messy propositition. Chicken manure, alfalfa, etc---sound very attractive, especially when compared to Guanos. I watched a great show on cave ecosystems this weekend and wondered how our guano can be harvested without impact on some of the delicate species that can exist on evolutionary 'islands'

If one uses the LC mix as basis, does anyone have subsitutes for the Indodesian, Mexican, Jamaican, and PSG?

To be really clear here, if I was bashing only bat guano while advocating increased use of fish hydrolysate and peat bog sphagnum peat, I'd be a hypocrite. Sure fish hydrolysate and peat are great effective products but how sustainable and environmentally sound? Are the fish being caught solely for this purpose or is it waste product from the food industry?

What I DO encourage is vermicompost and thermophilic compost, especially self-made. It is all you really need.

We don't live in ideal situations so some people use what is available and some people make the most ethical decision they can within the framework presented and comprehended.

 

[Microbeman]

there is really no such thing as 'facts' online

I do hope you are wrong.

 

[MrBomDiggitty]

Recently had a death in the family. Anyone ever grown some fine herb with cremation remains?

 

[FrankRizzo]

Anyone ever grown some fine herb with cremation remains?

No offense Mr Diggitty, but that's just creepy

 

[GeneticHeirloom]

Recently had a death in the family. Anyone ever grown some fine herb with cremation remains?

Don't pull a Cartman and drink the chocolate milk mix.

 

[HortProOrganics]

No offense to Nicol at all, as your points are valid in terms of the ecosystem being touchy, but all bat caves are not created equal, like what you see on NGC, Planet Earth series, etc. etc. What makes me more concerned, is what energy are using to power your house, car, and the building materials in your house, apartment etc.? Those should be your main concern ( like I said, harvesting the bat guano does disturb, but doesn't eliminate the ecosystem), as those make more of a negative impact than harvesting bat guano..... I know, being in the Green Industry and Horticulture for over 15 years, you have to choose your battles, and this is a very small concern compared to other factors for the planet.

 

[DocLeaf]

We used cavemans guano .. its OK,, but not veryt strong for guano.

The plastic bag it came in was NOT organic !!!

Oxfam do some good work no doubt,, and we send them old books sometimes!

However...

Oxfam full is crap too?

Yes. Oxfam are in the business of providing populations of people with the minimum daily food subsidies based on funds from voluntary donations. The annual money generated by Oxfam UK (GBP 299.7 million) is peanuts in comparison to trillions of $$$ spent elsewhere.

This money is later directed, guarded, and distributed with the help of the same corrupt western government agencies that created food shortages in the first place. Oxfam is like a placebo to help ease the guilty conscious of western societies public into thinking their governments give a f***!

Oxfam have been described as "a "Big International Non-Government Organisation (BINGO)," having a corporate-style, undemocratic internal structure, and addressing the symptoms rather than the causes of international poverty".

Likewise academics have claimed "that high certification costs and low wages for workers undermine claims that Fairtrade helps to lift producers out of poverty."

Give people bread and if they are hungry they will eat it. Teach them how to grow wheat and they'll make their own bread! We can only reap what we sow!

If yo'll wanna do something positive. Go give some money to the folk sat on the floor down the road,,,

 

[VerdantGreen]

Docleaf, whilst historically oxfam have been more in the business of putting a sticking plaster over problems rathert than tackling the root cause, i do feel that they have done much good work and saved many lives. more recently, their millenium development goals are driving at more sustainable solutions and i think the progress should be acknowledged and applauded. as i said above, it is very easy to criticise and undermine those who try to take a moral stand or make things better, and although oxfam are somewhat 'corperate' in the way they run their charity (partly a product of it's size and turnover), i would strongly disagree with those who write their continuing efforts off completely by making blanket generalisations about the huge range of good work that they do.

V.

 

[DocLeaf]

Yeah I agree in part...

However, Oxfam = Missionary Church in places,, and we all know how misguided and twisted they can be. God bless them. (Btw I was specific not blanket before)

How fair is a trade that monopolises and undermines the worker?

RE :Guano ...

Much of the guano is not soluble,, and so forms residue on buckets and sprayers, containers, plant pots, EC meters, in time. These salts are harmful to plantlife, so it a good idea to scrub clean any equipment every now and then.

Sea Bird (red) Guano is really dusty and tends to burn your nostrils out!!
We now mix outdoors only , sometimes with a damp bandanna if its windy

Hope this helps

 

[VerdantGreen]

thanks doc

re cavemans

for flower - 5g/litre (20g/gallon) Fresh N guano
10g/litre (40g/gallon) rock P Guano

V.