The Compost Tumbler thread

[JackTheGrower]

Update 6-13-2010

Update 6-13-2010

Hey everyone! The Weather is excellent and I am going to hit the hills for some camping real soon.

The River should be warming up in the Mountains as the Snow melts and the Sun warms the waters.

Fresh air and Spring time!

------------------------

So Today is the report on the Mung Bean plants which are rather thick and are taking up half of the tumbler space.

Today I update with photos and document a Witches Brew I made for these Bean plants.
The Idea is to get them growing as they have to be competing for nitrogen at this time.

I purchased a small "Hot Plate" unit that is excellent. I have used the BBQ in the past but there is nothing to BBQ at this time. You see why waste energy on BBQ warm up when I can make Witches Brew.
A mixture of Kelp meal, Foldgers ground coffee, azomite, Epsom salts, molasses, high N sea-bird guano and something else I am forgetting I am sure. The idea is to provide some nitrogen for these really cramped bean plants. Many of us have seen Mung Bean Sprouts so we know they grow in dense conditions and without light. They also will absorb nutrients so that's their task now. Get bigger green and soak up nutrients.
Looking like a Rich Coffee mix as it pours it smells salty like sea air salty. The kelp adds to that Sea Side dimension.
The Hand strainer catches the dregs of this brew as I pour into a bucket. Later I will dump all the dregs in the tumbler.
Adding water aerates the liquid while diluting what is a strong mix.
The "Tumbler of Green" has grown compact and 10 inches deep. Like a super bean sprout salad.
Here i have parted the bean plants and we see a brown almost mush looking color where the roots are all fighting for nutrients. It's really deep.
Last night I watered in anticipation of today's liquid feed and I see that there is a jump in biology as the temperature is a solid 5 to 7 degrees F above the cool of yesterday.

The Sprayer is a hand pump type and the more I garden the more I love using hand pump sprayers. It offers so much more control than just dumping.
Dregs are left. They look excellent and I wonder how long before these heat up with biological activity.




Well this is the thing.. I will watch and see what happens.. If it doesn't heat up then I will let this grow if it does heat up I will fo with a full dry mix and start the Tumbler A-Rockin!

If you have questions on the why or how I'll do my best. The reason for the effort is to push the quality of my plant's life while promoting organic soil!

This is how I maintain soil basically. The idea that we use up a soil is so wrong. Well we can look at it from the point of view that materials are processed and then they are gone but soil life is a might worker and once one population lives and dies another consumes them and so on.. The path of plant nutrients from organic materials is indirect but a solid natural path.
You see if we top dress the soil and even whole re-compost a soil mass it never is used up.
==




Next up:

Dry mix and the Tumble! Watch as the biology living in this mass of materials explodes into a wild time in the Compost pile once we bias the mix with a fresh supply of Greens and Browns!



Ernst

 

[master shake]

Wow very cool Jack, those bean sprouts would be good in a stir fry!

Took a few pics of the tumbler today after throwing in some cantaloupe. Since it has started raining it has gotten really wet in there and now a bit of a methane smell is present... What's a good brown to add and help dry it out? Would stirring it up be a bad idea? I don't want to kill any of bsf

 

[JackTheGrower]

Oh man! You got BSF! You know what to do. Get to Star Bucks and get some grounds!

I have a tub I am letting dry and will grind to a powder. I see some small flies coming out of the over-winter stuff.. I'm going to vacation on more BSF stuff this year as I have 6 litres of Leach and a tub of dry.
I am all stocked up.

So what are YOUR plans?

 

[JackTheGrower]

Biomass, dry mix and what-nots

Biomass, dry mix and what-nots

Sometimes the result of an effort is not an either or result. With feeding the bean plants I saw the result I wanted but not as uniformly as I expected.



I didn't want to disturb the roots so I avoided probing my hand down into the biomass. yet the bio-mass's response to being fed and the signs of a struggling population plus the compost thermometer readings suggested I had gone as far as I should with the Bio-Mass.

So I explored the materials and tumbled the tumbler.



This was a moment to get my hands into it. I worked the root mass and the materials to make the composting mass uniform.

Next I looked into my materials on hand and I found some good soil amendments I could use. Green-Sand, Bone meal, Coffee, Rice, Kelp-Meal, Azomite, Epsom_Salts, high N Sea_Bird Guano and crushed Oyster-shell and possibly more.



And now with a Tumbler this is the best part. Here we have a lot of materials in a small space. It weighs a lot. But with the tumbler it spins on rollers so I can turn a few times, work the bio-mass and hand mix the soil amendments.
After a few minutes breaking up root mass and hand mixing materials I felt I had done the correct thing in harvesting the bean plants now.
I made sure the kelp-meal and bone meal is mixed into the mass as evenly as I could during the mixing.
Kelp-meal heats up real easy and bone meal doesn't so mixing the two in a balance with the mass of the organic materials is sensible.

This was the "get your hands dirty" part and I could already feel the warmth from the quick nitrogen of high N sea-bird guano feeding the micro-organisms.

I spun the tumbler, hand mixed and was satisfied with the general mix finally.
I was able at this time to add the latest batch of coffee + filters, tea and whatnot organic household materials.



Lastly I turn, wet and continue break up the remaining bio-mass lumps and old soil clumps.
I pile and stick the thermometer in and there is it. The basic pile ;
I also will be picking up some alfalfa and rice tomorrow.
I may add more soil amendment materials then as well but this pile is off to a good start
---
I just peeked at the thermometer and it's at 100. It's wet and piled nice. I will turn it in the morning.

.

------

Any questions? Please feel free. This is a chance to get the information you need.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Update.

Update.

Hello! I was able to get some alfalfa, rice and banana chips! yeah!

So I admit I was heavy on the water and the bean sprouts are not the best nitrogen but with the new materials I believe all will be well.

There was a slight anaerobic condition but that is quickly changing.

So I have hopes for a good mix. Fingers crossed.


Gotta love Organic soil... Come on Banana chips for potassium?

Cool with me,,,

 

[JackTheGrower]

Good news.

I did underestimate the water content of the bean plants so things were a bit soggy for a few but it has hit 120 today and that is a sign things will be alright.

I just have to turn the tumbler more often.

So in the next few days I expect to see the temperature rise and then taper off and this soil will get screened and made into soil blocks.

I will be cloning a plant so this is the clone soil.

 

[xmobotx]

i have a little compost going in a bucket and it got me thinking about fab'n up a tumbler of sorts

it would take a big culvert or something for my outside pile - but that would be pretty cool too

 

[JackTheGrower]

i have a little compost going in a bucket and it got me thinking about fab'n up a tumbler of sorts

it would take a big culvert or something for my outside pile - but that would be pretty cool too

It's cool.

I have changed my mind here and went with more alfalfa, oyster shell, oat-meal and a can of fresh coffee.

I love that cooking alfalfa smell..

Hey you could use a 55 gal plastic drum! If you make one post it up!

For me this "Small batch" system is ideal but if I had a lot of yard materials I'd make use of a 55 gal for sure..

 

[Spok]

is it safe to compost moldy kitchen scraps like a moldy lemon for example?

 

[JackTheGrower]

is it safe to compost moldy kitchen scraps like a moldy lemon for example?

Yes.

There are bacteria, Fungus and whatnot(tm) biological life forms that eat materials.
With the work of these micro-organisms we see materials broken down and ultimately disappear but in the mean time we have these micro-organisms competing for the materials and so we will have a balance in populations.

That mold will have a run for it's money trying to survive and it won't look all that moldy after a while in an active compost pile.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Update 6-18-10

Update 6-18-10

I have added another new batch of green ( more alfalfa and coffee ) and a source of brown that will promote fungus ( oatmeal ).

So the clock gets reset a bit on this time line.

I had to wait until the mass dried out a bit and I saw the temperatures over a few days.
After turning the tumbler several times a day for a few I saw the temperatures average around the 110 range.
I am wanting it to go higher, be more biologically active, and today the mass was dry enough to lightly wet the mass again and I did.
So I will now be turning several times a day and managing the moisture of the mass with an eye towards encouraging more aggressive bio-activity.
The heat comes for the trillions of micro-organisms living and reproducing much like we emit body heat from our movement and processing of food.

There is enough N and C ( green and brown materials ) in there so there is no need to add more materials now. I am satisfied on the material mix.

This a small personal batch so these exotic materials satisfy my creative needs.

As far as I know there will be a balance of minerals and nutrients in the final product. I am open to suggestions if you reader have some.

I will put up some photos once the bio-activity rises of the texture of the compost mix.

Again please now is the time to ask me questions.

 

[kannubis]

Hello! I was able to get some alfalfa, rice and banana chips! yeah!

So I admit I was heavy on the water and the bean sprouts are not the best nitrogen but with the new materials I believe all will be well.

There was a slight anaerobic condition but that is quickly changing.

So I have hopes for a good mix. Fingers crossed.


Gotta love Organic soil... Come on Banana chips for potassium?

Cool with me,,,

Ernst, is the anaerobic condition from high moisture? And is that the reason for tumbling more often, like turning a pile? I am learning about organics the easy way, from somebody else's (your) successes. The whole compost process is amazing to me. Garbage in, goodies out. So far no BSF have shown up voluntarily, might have to buy some feeders.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Ernst, is the anaerobic condition from high moisture? And is that the reason for tumbling more often, like turning a pile? I am learning about organics the easy way, from somebody else's (your) successes. The whole compost process is amazing to me. Garbage in, goodies out. So far no BSF have shown up voluntarily, might have to buy some feeders.

yes.. I wet it to my satisfaction but didn't consider how much moisture the bean ( sprout ) plants had in them.

Turning is the answer to dry out materials.

BSF is more an anaerobic process. I have a tub of material here that is still getting warm with the "larvae" having cocooned over winter and taking their time in this long cool spring. But it's naturally smelly.

If you have a Starbucks then invest in a small plastic tub w/lid and go pick up a tub full and they will eat the coffee.

For you I would keep the pile in the shade to keep it from drying out too fast.

Hey as far as I am concerned compost-action is all you need!

We have the organisms in the soil and they need Carbon and Nitrogen to make proteins I think. They in turn die or are eaten by other things and in a short time the "Energy" is transferred to the plant.
In compost we have a huge population of organisms all munching.. Jivin and generally generating heat.
The need oxygen if we are composting aerobic ( with oxygen ) so every so often, depending on the condition of the pile, we turn the materials to get air in the mix as they use oxygen and will die off without it.

So this is how nature does it.

Folks say that there is no difference in an Ion created by an organic process and ion made form a chemical source but I feel good that my plants live in a symbiotic system rather than soaking up chemical solutions.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Update 6-19-2010

Update 6-19-2010

Hey, How ya doing?

I have had an interesting time with this. The majority of the "Brown" has been the soil mix that was used in a Dunk-n-grow 1 gallon clone grow,

I tried the flood feed way because I hadn't tried that style. the resulting soil mix was woody like and rather lifeless after a season.

Anyway That went in the tumbler to be recomposted.

Now I mixed greens and brows in and fired it up and it made it to 130 degrees F and then back down to 90 - 100 degrees.

I thought I could boost the biological activity back up with more Green but that hasn't done what I expected it's still steady at 90 - 100.

Today I read about a "Quick Carbon" gelatin and I ran for some. I also found a can of rice flour here and powdered with that too.

So I added Alfalfa and more with no boost but the smell of high nitrogen. Then added quick carbon and slower carbon rice flour.

So the nitrogen is now not smelling so I know it has found a bind with the gelatin but still no boost in temperatures.

So I guess that the new "Soil" is almost perfect. I will allow this to coast till next weekend. Then I will make soil blocks and let them "age" a week before use.

So this is a healthy soil and how do I know that.. Simple Soil aggregation is huge!

Just a few links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_structure
http://www.bashanfoundation.org/gabor/gaboraggregation.pdf
http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/management/files/RSQIS3.pdf

What I understand is that Calcium is related to aggregation. So by the size of this I have to say I'd put my money on a balanced reclamation of used soil from 1 gallon pots and the new materials.

Actual soil aggregates in the tumbler.


So the High temperature is over and the biology is balanced in there. I'll just let it go a week, screen and make blocks like I said.

Interesting. The gelatin is a quick fix for too much nitrogen from alfalfa for sure.

Guess it's all good here.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Just a note:

It looks like the oatmeal increased the fungus and that in turn is helping the temps to be steady rather than hot.

That's what i gather. I have balanced populations. So the thing is to let it go an not worry. It should stay steady for a few days and then taper off.

 

[JackTheGrower]

By the Way.

I had that excess nitrogen situation with the Alfalfa and a carbon mix that didn't need more N.

So I lucked out and found a PDF that told me that there is such a thing as quick carbon. Yep it's true!

Real quick! The Nitrogen gets bound to the gelatin.

http://www1.naturvetenskap.lu.se/examensarbeten/biologi/041208same.pdf

That corrected the excess N and in a hurry. I did the sprinkle and turn sprinkle and turn...


Interesting. Just when I was having distress I find the answer! Right on.

http://www1.naturvetenskap.lu.se/examensarbeten/biologi/041208same.pdf

I wish to thank Sandra Meidute.

What do bacteria and fungus eat?
In soils there are a lot of fungi and bacteria that feed on dead leaves and dead animals. Doing
so they decompose the organic matter. The organic matter contains different amounts of
nitrogen and carbon and the carbon can be easy to utilize or bound in complex compounds.
It is believed that fungi grow better on complex organic matter and that bacteria are favoured
on nitrogen rich organic matter.
The aim of the study was to find out if bacteria grow better when nitrogen is added to the
organic matter and if it is true that fungi like more complex organic matter.
Bacteria and fungi in a soil were fed with glucose and gelatin where the carbon is simple to
utilize and with cellulose where the carbon is difficult to take care of. These carbon sources
were then enriched with nitrogen in different combinations.
Bacterial growth rate was measured with a technique where bacteria take up a special
compound which can be measured and fungal growth was measured by the uptake of a
radiolabelled molecule. The ovarall activity in the soil was measured by soil respiration.
Adding only nitrogen to the soil did not affect any of the measurements which indicates that
it is the amount of carbon that limits fungal and bacterial growth in soils. Bacterial growth
was higher on the simple carbon compounds (glucose and gelantin) while fungal growth
increased more rapidly when cellulose was added. Enrichment with nitrogen had no effect on
the fungal or bacterial growth on any of the carbon compunds. The general soil respiration
rate depended most on fungal growth rate and not on bacterial growth rate

I am seeing this. The temps went to steady and that was a surprise my guess was fungus but this nails it.

Any comments?

 

[kannubis]

who'd have thunk it, j-e-l-l-o putting the bacteria in the compost on a diet

 

[JackTheGrower]

Ain't it so?

There is always something to learn. Now to find it in bulk.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Update 6-23-2010

Update 6-23-2010

Well this is the most protracted composting I have ever done.

The interesting part is the Steady State of the biological activity.

It's stays in the low end and doesn't seem to be near completion.

Here is what the soil mix looks like today.



I was hoping it was done and by this weekend I would be making soil blocks but I may be off by a whole week!

It is best to let this go and be done naturally as to avoid any "soil stress" with biological "flare ups" in the future.

Heat on the roots isn't a good thing with the minimum effect being stunted growth and extended effects being plant death.

 

[JackTheGrower]

Update:

For some odd reason the compost has kicked it into high gear by rising to 110-115.\

It steams on a hot summer's day.

The reduction in volume is the direct sign that composting is proceeding as hoped.

Hey i don't get it myself.. It is as is the timing of events has a guiding invisible hand.

I'm cool. This mix is for a special purpose.

So all is well that ends well. I hope to post final screened material shots in a week. I hope.