Teaming with Microbes: The Organic Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web

[xebeche]

Secondtry,

Thanks for the links and recommending an affordable book.

Keep posting the helpful info even if people take your tone as a bit harsh plz.

X

 

[mad librettist]

good point, let's get that thread started on the rodale composting book. Sounds like a good follow up after reading the introductory tome that is the subject of this thread.




so has anyone made a berlese funnel?

 

[Kaneh]

Just got my copy of THE BOOK from Amazon!!!
I have read only the introduction so far, where you guys are at?

...And talking about clay, I live in area where there's spots that have 70 meters of clay! (That's over 200 feet to you metrically challenged people.)
Drainage is gonna be problem here, doesn't matter what you do!
I also got "chinese" beds, but think I make walls to them from old logs. Should be goood for fungus. I still have looooong way to go before my garden is good.
Luckily I just got great idea how I will get my garden better:
We rotate crops, and I ad MJ to that rotation. You won't believe how much more work I'm ready to do for Marijuana than potatoes!!! so the beds with MJ get full service, compost, topdressing, teas, etc... And next year they're gonna be good for potatoes also! ;D

 

[mad librettist]

Guys I don't know that they are called chinese beds. I just know that's how they raise veggies.

Come to think of it it's just a big mound. lol

Kaneh, I am done the book, and eager to do some of the exercises. Actually I did not read the intro.


I never read the intro to things.

 

[VerdantGreen]

hey kaneh bear in mind that log sides will be a great home for slugs and snails too

just a word to those who make compost - carry on!

im sure if you buy most of the stuff that goes into it and then chop it all up with a huge power hungry machine and then turn it every day your compost (if not your carbon footprint) will be amazing.

but if like me you put all your gardeb waste into a compost bin, maybe turn it once into another bin, and come back after a year you will have some good compost to use on your garden amd it will have cost you and the planet nothing

cheers

V.

 

[mad librettist]

true vg, monomania is no virtue.

when we decide to use natural and safe methods to care for our gardens against societal norms, we already accept that some things are more important than short term success.

 

[xmobotx]

LOL I don't smoke. Just love to grow things and trying to learn this organic thing.

hey, grapeman
i don't mean to piss you off - but, all the farmers i have known move a lot of money around through the banks and financing equipment BUT, make very little money (typically subsidizing their families food costs on their own farms by gardening)

some of these guys end up operating at a loss which is smudged over by the credit nature of their operation (yikes!)

to my mind, this typifies the problems w/ our society of today where the money mongerers have essentially enslaved the working class

the organic model (while taking a looooong time to establish) should rely very little on equipment (the truly big cost) and more on labor (employees)

while this becomes something of an inversion compared to the bank's model (and therefor a big adaptation/change for people accustomed to today's typical practices) it definitely speaks to sustainability in a time when so many jobs are threatened by automation

the success of your farm in and of itself says that you don't rely on a typical model (unless your marketing practices are just tremendous) -which seems to me like you may be a farmer more capable of making the transitions from bank/machine farming to sustainable agriculture w/ organic focus

for perspective you should understand that i am anti-store bought nutes and my system of organics relies on self production w/ methods such as composting and teas based around alfalfa (and the many other plant sources of nutes) where everything is sourced on your own farm (never bought) THIS (of course) represents an ideal where there (especially early on) will be variances and compromises in the interests of continuous harvests

IDK - just kinda thinking aloud - many folks just shop in a different section of the store and call it "organic" but, thats not what "organic" means to me.

regards

 

[mad librettist]

hey xmo, do you want to make a berlese funnel?

 

[xmobotx]

~but if like me you put all your garden waste into a compost bin, maybe turn it once into another bin, and come back after a year you will have some good compost to use on your garden amd it will have cost you and the planet nothing

exactly -or FTM the sheet composting method where the mulch is active compost spread over the entire garden and brushed aside to sow (maybe raked back to expose a seedbed then the mound can support a window/row cover or ? for extending season/early planting)

where i slip on the leubke thing is where they introduce that big windrow machine -how much does one of those things cost?

when we compost, we are emulating a natural process as when the leaves fall off the tree in the fall, get all gooey and covered w/ crap, misc litter, and biology then serve to feed the tree in successive seasons (all continuously repeated) we just want to speed this process up

of course, for container gardens the compost must be "finished" to a state where it is no longer breaking down "hot" but we know this once we don't recognize the former ingredients as their former selves

i feel you know this - just agreeing and discussing for the benefit of all

the thing is, we can work this out to the nth degree and nitpick over minor details - or, we can just look at the tree and go "hmm, that seems to be the way plants get fed in nature - i think i might try something like that"

either way success is somewhere down the road for the beginner and maybe a little closer for the detail oriented scholar

 

[grapeman]

hey, grapeman
i don't mean to piss you off - but, all the farmers i have known move a lot of money around through the banks and financing equipment BUT, make very little money (typically subsidizing their families food costs on their own farms by gardening)

some of these guys end up operating at a loss which is smudged over by the credit nature of their operation (yikes!)

to my mind, this typifies the problems w/ our society of today where the money mongerers have essentially enslaved the working class

the organic model (while taking a looooong time to establish) should rely very little on equipment (the truly big cost) and more on labor (employees)

while this becomes something of an inversion compared to the bank's model (and therefor a big adaptation/change for people accustomed to today's typical practices) it definitely speaks to sustainability in a time when so many jobs are threatened by automation

the success of your farm in and of itself says that you don't rely on a typical model (unless your marketing practices are just tremendous) -which seems to me like you may be a farmer more capable of making the transitions from bank/machine farming to sustainable agriculture w/ organic focus

for perspective you should understand that i am anti-store bought nutes and my system of organics relies on self production w/ methods such as composting and teas based around alfalfa (and the many other plant sources of nutes) where everything is sourced on your own farm (never bought) THIS (of course) represents an ideal where there (especially early on) will be variances and compromises in the interests of continuous harvests

IDK - just kinda thinking aloud - many folks just shop in a different section of the store and call it "organic" but, thats not what "organic" means to me.

regards

Why would you piss me off? There is so much non factual idealism in your comment that I'm only going to ask one thing.

As we move towards your model as described above, can I be the one who selects the 3 billion people that need to starve to death in order to implement your organic model?

Just saying.

Sorry ML, I know - off topic again. but I was minding my own business. Really I was. I did order the book on amazon today. Yesterday my local library said I had $26 in back late charges from 1997 (my GD kids).

 

[mad librettist]

It's ok grape, it doesn't seem anyone actually wants to talk about the book at the moment.

politics is boring IMO compared to microbes in the garden.

 

[xebeche]

ML,

If you spend about an hour laying down in your yard/dirt, you will see the larger arthropods. If they are abundant, there is no need to make a funnel (unless you just want to play with it) as the larger arthropods are only around if they have a food source (the type you find with the funnel).

I am more interested in getting a dope microscope to see what is going on in act that I make from compost etc (described in the revised edition).

Odd aside: I met Ingham's new "assistant" at the farm and garden show last year. She had the nice white lab coat, was trying to sell what seemed like a multi-level marketing version of compost teas, and was trying to sell a poster of microscopic images (for $30), but could not tell me what the maginification was to check out the little microherd.

If any of you find a good source for images and the proper power to view these little bugs, pass em on plz.

X

 

[mad librettist]

xebeche, yes I can spend an hour like that it can be quite a show.

But the funnel is used for microarthrpods, at least as the book recommends.

Also TWM claims we shouldn't use feedstocks with inorganic fertilizer or pesticides, but that's not AT ALL true. Sure, for the average person we don't want pesticides, but composting is a method to REMOVE pesticdes, etc, this is a huge field of science. And in fact, using inorganic N is a FINE method to raise C:N is one can't get it correct with only feedstocks. This is all proven scientific theory...

Citation please. The precautionary principle is my guide.

Not only that but TWM claims "a compost pile requires a minimum amount of mass, about 3.5 feet square"; however, that is not correct, a minimum of 3 CUBIC feet is needed. And neither TWM no Elaine mention Bulk Density which should at start be about 700-1,000 per cubic yard, a little higher is OK (see this link for info on how to find the BD of a PROPOERLLY mixed compost pile).

hardly a scathing indictment. the authors would likely make the correction with gratitude on the first point, and on the second point those who want to worry about that stuff will do so, no need to bash a basic intro for not being thorough enough. That's the definition.

 

[xebeche]

ML,

Yeah, I should check my soil with one. If you want to see some of the smaller bugs I would get one of these:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1325

I get quite a bit of cheap stuff from there. It takes a while to ship, but it is nearly free. Search for "microscope" and you will find a bunch of different ones. The little five dollar one with the two LEDs is great for checking on your trichomes

X

 

[xmobotx]

hey xmo, do you want to make a berlese funnel?

yeah, i do and i think i'm gonna - just lookin into it so far

Why would you piss me off?

Just saying - lol

my point is just if a person implements the methods they can produce food in a fairly large region of the world enough for them selves and as time goes on excesses

it does seem idealistic to think that all commercial farmers could be organic

not to think that some can though

BY "the methods" I don't necessarily mean inclusively or exclusively TWM methods but, no-till, compost based, organic/"true organic", et al/etc.........

 

[secondtry]

exactly -or FTM the sheet composting method where the mulch is active compost spread over the entire garden and brushed aside to sow (maybe raked back to expose a seedbed then the mound can support a window/row cover or ? for extending season/early planting)

where i slip on the leubke thing is where they introduce that big windrow machine -how much does one of those things cost?

Why do you assume one needs a compost tuner? Or that one needs to buy anything to make high quality compost? All one needs is to understand the science behind composting, and wallah! great compost follows.


.......................................................
For example, last summer I made my improved version of Luebke compost by hand with a pitch fork and shovel. Is that low tech enough?

I made 8 3x3x3 bins, each over a palate covered small opening mesh wire (so air can reach the bottom of the pile). I screwed 2x4s to the sides of the pallets with those "L" braces as my wall support. Then I staple gunned wire around each bin and in the front I made the wire only about 3' feet high so I could easily turn and move the piles (the other walls were about 4' high). All I did was make pile #1 in bin #1, then I turned it each day from bin #1, to bin #2, onto bin #8, then once at bin #8 I started turning it backwards to bin #1. Every day during the thermophilic and hyperthermophilic stages I tested the moisture content and if I had to add water I did so with a hose when turning the pile. I used a compost thermometer to track and graph the temp flux (with a spreadsheet I wrote) so I can see when the different phases of compost was happening. I also tested pH and EC on every 4th day and graphed those too.

For feedstocks I bought very little. For N I used free "wet spent brewers grains" from the local breweries and for free I collected field dried horse manure, I also used some alfalfa meal I had left over from growing for N. For carbon I used the wet spent brewers grains and purchased bales of wheat straw which I then treated with indigenous White Rot Fungi to break down the lignin thereby increasing the bioavailable carbon. I also added humic acid, calcidic lime, azomite and zeolite, all of which I had from growing (those items are important for great compost). I used colloidal phosphate to lower the C ratio below 100; that is a tid-bit you won't read elsewhere and is little known, but very important; I had the colloidal phosphate from growing. My bioavailable corrected C:N ratio was about 29-30 (C:N and C is reported as a single number, not as a ratio as is mistakenly used in TWM and Dr. Ingham).

My compost was in the "mesophilic" phase after about 2 weeks and I allowed it to mature for an additional 4 weeks. After about a month and a half I had some of the best compost one can hope to make...all without a single piece of machinery besides the Patriot shredder I borrowed from my neighbor to reduce the feedstock particle size (a great shredder like that only costs about $200).

I also used a "compost fleece" from CV Compost in Vermot which only cost me about $75 and greatly increases the quality of compost, not only that but the amount of fungi is INSANE

Now, next summer I want to buy a "MightyMike" compost turner which is the same as a Luebke compost tuner but only costs about $4-5k; one also needs a small tractor like a small Kubota to pull the turner and that will cost about another $1-2k (used). With that setup, and the auto-watering rig on the tuner I will make many windrows about 4' in width and 3.5' in height and about 30' in length. I will be able to make some of the best compost one could hope to make for relative pennies compared to huge compost tuner you are referring to. I plant to sell my compost at that point...

All my feedstocks for C and N I sourced for free (save the wheat straw). And wet spent brewers grains are one of the best feedstocks IMO.

when we compost, we are emulating a natural process as when the leaves fall off the tree in the fall, get all gooey and covered w/ crap, misc litter, and biology then serve to feed the tree in successive seasons (all continuously repeated) we just want to speed this process up

That is a gross oversimplification, but in essence it's correct. However, one should try to max the humus content of compost which is why I add Ca (from calcitic lime and azomite), humus and zeolite...

of course, for container gardens the compost must be "finished" to a state where it is no longer breaking down "hot" but we know this once we don't recognize the former ingredients as their former selves

That is compost yes, but not great compost, which would YOU like to have?

the thing is, we can work this out to the nth degree and nitpick over minor details - or, we can just look at the tree and go "hmm, that seems to be the way plants get fed in nature - i think i might try something like that"

Or we can pick up a few good books, read the Cornell U site for the Science and Engineering of Compost, and read what I have written about Luebke compost and actuality KNOW what is going on so we can make the best compost possible, all it takes is time reading an thinking. Just looking at a tree doesn't tell you crap about what the microbes are doing...just like looking at ACT tells one crap about the microbes in the ACT...


HTH

 

[secondtry]

Why would you piss me off? There is so much non factual idealism in your comment that I'm only going to ask one thing.

As we move towards your model as described above, can I be the one who selects the 3 billion people that need to starve to death in order to implement your organic model?

+1. Xm's idealism is great and all, but we need a dose of reality too...

 

[xmobotx]

it's truly awesome that you get fully composted material in 6 weeks. but you do have to admit that is pretty labor intensive

no-machine farming seems less than ideal to me. i have always maintained that my "secret grotto" concept is the ideal but that "close" is really the best we can accomplish in a lifetime (in terms of impact to the planet and output based on input)

believe me, i have much more respect for the system where machines are used to turn compost than where machines are used to harvest vast fields (a "necessary evil" in todays society)

i will cultivate a field w/ a spring tooth -mainly because we are required to control our noxious weeds here and our particular noxious weeds are controlled that way

i roto-tilled my 1st garden (my grandparents roto-tilled every year) but i have done the 2 new ones i had to start since entirely by hand (as double dig/no till)

rest assured i get good finished compost and have been getting it since i tilled my 1st garden in '95 (no, my experience may not exceed that of many here but i m not new.)

So yeah, i m an idealist but, i m also a realist (if i can do it you can too)

by the strict definitions, sheet composting like in no-work garden or a deciduous tree self mulching w/ it's fallen leaves doesn't produce efficient quick complete compost. But, it relies on the same science as the compost pile. it is the portal to further understanding.

but, these things happen all by themselves in nature

we're just talking about our methods for speeding the processes up

I've improved my composting methods based on your input (thanks!) don't get me wrong - but, not everyone will turn compost daily. and, a pile of stuff will eventually rot w/o my input.

 

[mad librettist]

So I'm surprised to see a reference to protozoa soup, but of course it does not go in depth.

Anyone?

 

[NUG-JUG]

Yea it's at pg.168 "wash down any application of bacterial food with a protozoa soup." Isn't a protozoa soup just ACT? Since tailoring act to have only protozoa would be impossible no?