Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[reppin2c]

The lab may just tolerate us but the only business I'd turn down is bad business. Extra cost or whatever as long as you get what you pay for. It would be nice to have some sort of standardization to shrink this learning curve quicker.

Those numbers don't seem right. I don't see how they could be that far off from logans.

 

[jidoka]

Avenger...why meq per liter vs meq per 100 grams?
Slow...the ts mix was 50%top soil and 25 of both peat and 1/2 inch basalt. The other was 1/3 peat, oly compost and pumice

The oly is hardwood, fish and yard waste allegedly composted 2 yrs. There is a lot of hardwood left in it. I was bragging that woo tainio did in one grow what composting couldn't in 2.

Next yr fuck peat, fuck compost...80% top soil and 20% a different drainage amendment

Edit...i did not sift. Spectrum does, not sure about logan

 

[Avenger]

because we grow plants in a volume of soil not a weight of soil

it removes a step for the lab instead of adding a step in their process

imagine how much easier it would be to calculate fertilizer inputs for containers or by the yard of media

an acre furrow slice is a set volume of soil, the first assumption is that it weighs ~2,000,000 pounds, everything after that is dubious

 

[slownickel]

Took another look at your soil analysis from your perspective. Historically looking at your numbers I would have not guessed your TS would be better than the BAS. There is more P, the same amount of Ca in M3 and more in the base distribution in both M3 and [email protected]. However, using the Reams concepts, I would have chosen the TS mix. Why? It is the closest to having the minimum amount of Ca available to the plant. Reams was using the basic Morgan and he was on acidic washed out sands.

I have seen the same thing here in Peru. 2000 ppm of Ca with [email protected] seems to be a minimum and needs to take dominant emphasis in a diagnosis over looking at this soil through base saturation distributions. This is where the concept of nutrient density comes to play, first minimums and then relationships.

 

[jidoka]

So it looks like ts beat the bas by 5/3. Do not underplay the si
. next time more ca for sure and no dumb ass kno3 late in the process.

 

[jidoka]

because we grow plants in a volume of soil not a weight of soil

it removes a step for the lab instead of adding a step in their process

imagine how much easier it would be to calculate fertilizer inputs for containers or by the yard of media

an acre furrow slice is a set volume of soil, the first assumption is that it weighs ~2,000,000 pounds, everything after that is dubious

But it would still be different for a 1000000 lb soil vs a 2 mil...no? But maybe i see your point...meq per yard would be awesome. Little bit high, watching the ws...anyways i should not post til i think this through

 

[slownickel]

hey slow! always ready to learn something new. subbed.

boy am I lost. I gotta go back to page one and start googling. I remember thinking of cec between plants like engines in cars, coco/hydro being a v4 and supersoil/notill being a v12...

is this way off? haha

Let's see if I can adjust your thinking a bit. Think of the CEC as the car itself, not the motor. But realize that the car you are driving has to be able to turn quickly. So if you have a monster CEC say of 30, that soil is going to be very tough to move or turn. If you have a CEC of 12 or so, You are driving a Porsche, enough motor to get you there fast and can turn quick. A CEC lower than ten is like driving an old volkswagon, it will get you there and make the turn, but it will take forever and when you get there, You won't impress anyone, including yourself.

 

[HazyBulldog]

SlowN

You know my soil. I am in excess in many areas. I was thinking of adding 2 lbs of gypsum per 200 gal/yard of material. Should push off lots of excess, and up my Ca levels into the 70-8-% range. Any thoughts?

I could just throw a cover crop on for the winter, till and amend in the spring.

 

[brown_thumb]

I follow this thread but understand little of it. My cognitive plasticity and memory are failing so I must keep things simple. I understand the concepts here but can no longer delve deeply into the scientific minutiae. I won't even attempt it.

 

[jidoka]

SlowN

You know my soil. I am in excess in many areas. I was thinking of adding 2 lbs of gypsum per 200 gal/yard of material. Should push off lots of excess, and up my Ca levels into the 70-8-% range. Any thoughts?

I could just throw a cover crop on for the winter, till and amend in the spring.

If you go to http://bionutrient.org/library/soil-nutrition-conference-archive and then to the be your own soil consultant he talks about how much gypsum to use to do what you want.

I have not tried it myself yet but am thinking about it for the same reasons as you.

 

[slownickel]

Put some gypsum and maybe even some good lime down now. Let the rains wash it in. Plant some tiller radishes in real quick and let them grow as long as you can. Maybe get a mix of clovers or beans even.

 

[Mronyc]

Could i use charcoal in soilless medium to buff CEC instead of clay, mainly because i can't source good quality clay.

 

[slownickel]

Jidoka,

If you are referring to Foster, he is a Kinsey and Astera clone, with 5 years experience in gardening, with an industrial engineer background. Yeah, he knows how to dial it in... LMAO. Good luck with these types.

He said that you can't get your CEC too high. But he did recognize that the bigger the number the harder to balance. When he got to sulfur, he wants to plug in S at 75 ppm. WRONG. Sulfur needs to equal phosphorus (that is Reams). He also says sulfates don't raise your S level in the soil. WRONG.

This guy is using Astera best guesses, which are based on.... GUESSING! No Science involved.

And he uses the 68/12 Ca/Mg which is pure Kinsey. Kinsey didn't listen to Albrecht apparently after he retired. Kinsey was too busy consulting all over God's creation instead of listening to his mentor after he had retired. At 68/12 in an alkaline soil, what will be the replacement for H+???? Na? haha.... You will end up with 20% Mg or so if there is no Na (which you don't want).

Read Tiedjens. He leaves no doubt.

This guy in this recording is nuts with the Mg and is worse than Astera!

If you have a CEC lower than 10, you need to add OM and clays. Jamming a bunch of Mg in there will make huge problems the way he is making calculations.

 

[slownickel]

Could i use charcoal in soilless medium to buff CEC instead of clay, mainly because i can't source good quality clay.

MRONYC,

No clue about soilless medium. We use biochar in our soils and is an excellent amendment. Biochar is not charcoal.

 

[rykus]

Thanks again Slownickle!

been seeing some very good success fallowing some of your tips and tricks, lol, and recognizing the short comings in my soil, amendment supliers, andpersonal knowlage...

anyways had a great flower set last round and then added a cup of half pre mix flower food (2-8-4) and half gypsum... it was to fast acting and the next few days i got rot and some burn... added more gypsum and they came back, but most dont quite pray like they did before....

I have found that using less ingredients has been better for learning and the cycle now is looking great. bumped up my K with some kelp meal before flower then at click top dressed fish bone meal and gypsum(doing 100mL scoop now per 15 gal) hoping for a bit better flower set and nice full stems!

I have come to think my CEC is very low... so am adding less more often. is working very well, and i was wondering if maybe it would be best to add my micros to my water to help ph (IS 8+ out of tap) and get the ratios i need more consistently.

could i get the 2/1 Mn/Fe and my B Zn in powder form from albion or the like and try to push those numbers or would the alphalfa/kelp/bone have too much trace already?

working on soil tests still...

 

[slownickel]

Rykus,

Get a soil sample to Spectrum, stop guessing.

Albion to the soil is a good idea but do so adding more Zn, Mn, Cu etc.... to take advantage of the extra chelating capacity of Albion or Baicor for that matter (they are cheaper and arguably better).

Gypsum at flowering is a good idea, even during flowering.

We did some tests this year on grapes, applying gypsum at flowering, post fruit set and right before color change. The fruit were spectacular. Crunchy, big and super sweet.

You, like EVERYONE else, are realizing that this has been a missing tool and no one was getting it right except for maybe Caterpillar. Still waiting on Shcrews soil analysis.

Glad I could help! Going to the Emerald Cup?

 

[rykus]

Ha Ha no... I'm up in Canada.

thanks again SlowN... i quit the corperate world, so i need a CC again to do my soil and ordering some powder feeds from biacor probably, was going to get my micros induvidually from them as well.... i was using earth juice for micros, but the ratios are not what you advised for C3 crops, want more personal control so figured grabing my Mn ect from them would give me that control.

was having very very positive response going light, top dressing alphalfa meal, fish and crab meal, bone meal, and kelp meal as i see fit about every seven to ten days seems about right, and adding about even amounts gypsum.

for a 15 gal i was using a 3/4 cup one food the other gypsum, but the pre mix bloom i used had bat guano and some other faster acting stuff and i got crazy instsnt rot from applying it in this manner.Went down to a 100mL scoop... seem 1-2 of feed is lots and equal amount of gypsum keeps them praying hard.

some extra gypsum helped the over feed/fast release ..but i fear a sulfur/phosphorus imbalance and the calcium seems to be tying up or leaching out the N too... anyways closer than ive ever been to full organic, and its more productive and cost effective than ever!

just got to get my last 4 weeks down because i seem to every time gas out, or lock up at day 40-50 and get mass losses to rot.....

next time i'm keeping it even more basic... but im very close so thanks and i will get the CC and post results asap.... should be enlightning.. ive been re using the soil a year plus.

 

[TnTLabs]

damn im late.. great thread! only on page 10 though
thanks!

 

[Shcrews]

You, like EVERYONE else, are realizing that this has been a missing tool and no one was getting it right except for maybe Caterpillar. Still waiting on Shcrews soil analysis.

i'll send in samples this week. should i till in my covercrop first?

 

[maxmurder]

i'll send in samples this week. should i till in my covercrop first?

i have the same question slow...