Silver said he shouldn't start such a thread since scarce shall time soon seem.

[silver hawaiian]

Well, in all fairness kind sir, it's hard to say not enough of [anything] when the dirt's treated me as well as it has for 3 years.

And IIRC, the approximate ratio in that original mix of mine of soilromix:ewc is pretty standard..?

Ca, good call - add crab shell meal to the list of shit that's been added since the original batch. Proabably, .. Mm.. 18-24 months ago?

Anyway - as far as amendments to increase aeration/drainage for the long-term, what's ideal? It seems to me that something like perlite or lava rock would retain its structure in the long-term better than moss, no?

 

[dank.frank]

What Bobble is saying is that you will find a soil that has higher Ca levels will be less compact. You'll find that soils becoming compact typically have higher Mg levels.

That is in part the issue with dolomite limestone and it being re-applied over time.

That aside, the grow stones are interesting - recycled glass. I don't see that being a "bad" amendment for aeration, but perhaps you just have things out of balance a bit. What I do see as a potential problem is their size...which is the same reason I don't like most lava rock that I can find locally. They seem rather large - compared to something like a coarse perlite - which really is the perfect size...if not for its own set of issues.

I don't like perlite because when I buy it the bottom 30% of the bag is nothing but crushed dust. Then over time is DOES break down into smaller (less useful) particle sizes. Then throw in the fact it tends to float to the top and out of the medium negating its purpose...

That being said...I'm not against perlite use - but when recycling a soil, it just doesn't last.

EWC - can be anywhere from 8-18% of the total medium depending on who you ask...I like to hover around the 10-12% range max...when you consider that EWC is much like dirt in its texture - it's easy to make a medium that is TOO heavy.

I say roughly 30-35% aeration amendment per total volume of your base mix...and particle size is important. Too big and water just runs through the mix...and the distribution is not even. You'll have some spots where water runs through and other spots where it puddles.



dank.Frank

 

[silver hawaiian]

That is in part the issue with dolomite limestone and it being re-applied over time.

This has never been re-worked into the mix. If I were to start over, I'd omit it.

That aside, the grow stones are interesting - recycled glass. I don't see that being a "bad" amendment for aeration, but perhaps you just have things out of balance a bit. What I do see as a potential problem is their size...which is the same reason I don't like most lava rock that I can find locally. They seem rather large - compared to something like a coarse perlite - which really is the perfect size...if not for its own set of issues.

I don't like perlite because when I buy it the bottom 30% of the bag is nothing but crushed dust. Then over time is DOES break down into smaller (less useful) particle sizes. Then throw in the fact it tends to float to the top and out of the medium negating its purpose...

That being said...I'm not against perlite use - but when recycling a soil, it just doesn't last.

All very helpful points But you've left me hanging -- in your experience, what's thee ideal amendment for aeration? You mentioned a few things but seemed to Goldilocks on 'em all a bit.

 

[Mister_D]

What is in your soil man??? Is that driveway gravel?

What was your base soil mix?

Ignore any and all suggestions to put floor-dri in there...that certainly isn't going ot fix anything. It IS NOT a 1:1 replacement for perlite - not even close. You'll have the exact same compaction issues you are having now.



dank.Frank

Care to expand on this? I have been using floordry in both my organic and chem gardens for couple years now to help with compaction. Can't say I have anything but good things to say about it. You're right, it's not a 1 to 1 replacement it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than perlite in every way IME. That said I do agree with bobble (shhhhh ), too much EWC in the mix. Add some peat/promix to fluff that shit up I'd still recommend a healthy dose of floor dry too though

 

[bobblehead]

Promix, oyster shell flour, and gypsum.... and a lot of what you have amended is spent by now. You could probably add some meals.

 

[silver hawaiian]

It's almost like I could use a soil test

 

[bobblehead]

Oh hey there's an idea.. why didn't I think of that?


If I was you I'd buy a bale of promix and mix it in with the old stuff. Get a fresh start. Then get the new mix tested.

Sprinkling rocks on a chunk of dirt isn't going to fix anything... although adding some Ca might.

 

[silver hawaiian]

Oh hey there's an idea.. why didn't I think of that?

Gold star for YOU! Since a soil test wouldn't be an otherwise logical conclusion at which to arrive

If I was you I'd buy a bale of promix and mix it in with the old stuff. Get a fresh start. Then get the new mix tested.

Sprinkling rocks on a chunk of dirt isn't going to fix anything... although adding some Ca might.

I have no clue what you're talking about - I'd chalk it up to poor comprehension but I know you better than that.

Speaking of, I thought I just need a fogger and everything would be solved?

 

[bobblehead]

I was thinking about this a little more... and you know what would save you all this hassle? signing your plants over to me.



Then my soil tests become your soil tests...

 

[silver hawaiian]

I got 99 problems and porosity is one

 

[dank.frank]

Care to expand on this?

in your experience, what's thee ideal amendment for aeration?

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=6376721&postcount=801



dank.Frank

 

[silver hawaiian]

HTF did I forget abt that product? I read both the post and the link when you put 'em up, and even dug around and found out one of the sort of hoity toity greenhouses up the road has it.

Hmm.

 

[Mister_D]

I have no clue what you're talking about - I'd chalk it up to poor comprehension but I know you better than that.

I think bobble was poking fun at my suggestion to add floor dry . And he's half right as usual . That alone won't completely solve your issue. Though that in combination with adding the promix, like I suggested, will get you back to a workable base media well suited for use in pots . Further amending I thought was kind of a given being you are using organic soil, and diluting it with nearly nutrient void pro-mix. All that said a soil test is definitely the best way to go . For future reference you might want to remember organic matter (i.e peat, compost, castings, etc) break down, and have to be added back along with nutes in order to sustain that fluffy texture that grows the best dope . I'm sure you've noticed your dirt doesn't have nearly the same consistency as it did a couple years ago when you first mixed it?

 

[silver hawaiian]

I think bobble was poking fun at my suggestion to add floor dry). And he's half right as usual . That alone won't completely solve your issue. Though that in combination with adding the promix, like I suggested, will get you back to a workable base media well suited for use in pots . Further amending I thought was kind of a given being you are using organic soil, and diluting it with nearly nutrient void pro-mix. All that said a soil test is definitely the best way to go . For future reference you might want to remember organic matter (i.e peat, compost, castings, etc) break down, and have to be added back along with nutes in order to sustain that fluffy texture that grows the best dope . I'm sure you've noticed your dirt doesn't have nearly the same consistency as it did a couple years ago when you first mixed it?

This was the insinuation I couldn't grasp: "You can't just top dress with perlite and rocks."

You mean I can't? Weird.

Forget food density, just the texture of the soil has for sure changed. It's funny, because when I was going through what I believe to be similar shit with the Nightmare a few months ago, I'd totally forgotten that I'd added the grow stone thing doodads. My rambling point is that, yeah, the shit done changed consistency.

Though I have to say, this problem seems to have been amplified (perhaps not surprisingly) by the last couple runs, in which I've gone to no-till in my containers. Dig 'em out, plant 'em right back in. Maybe a coincidental observation, but I just report the news, dudes. Probably not the best method when the dirt's already a little stiff.

Soil test, .. Yes! Not a matter of budget, but more like, .. Then WTF? It occurred to me, the extra ~ 30 gal dirt I found out back is "the hopper" from before I went no-till.

Probably the best thing to do

(watch me count on my fingers, guys)

is to dump the no-till containers after this run, mix alllll the shit back up with what's been sitting out back, and get THAT tested. In other words, I probably oughtta put all the f'n dirt back in one heap. Probably a good start.

..and in the meantime, I'll have likely started a new run by then, so's the test-result-amended mix would [fancy] catsup on the next one.

I think I have a known issue and a potential issue. Compaction is the known, and if for no other reason than best practices, a test is in order. (That is, I'm not entirely convinced I've been having serious snags as a result of the nutrient levels in the dirt. ..Which is not to say it's right on target)

Mmmyello

 

[Mister_D]

I went ahead and quoted the post you linked as this is very interesting to me after using the product for the last couple years.

No. NO. NOOOOOOO....

I admit I used to advocate this - but I think there are better solutions and products to use at the end of the day. I've explained my reasoning behind this in several posts, but the calcined diatomaceous earth (such as in some kitty litters and oil spill products) is primarily designed to be an ABSORBENT.

I agree there are better products out there, but price, availability, and results have floor dry rated pretty high on my list .

Yes, it creates a good particle sized spacing within the medium - HOWEVER, as much as it can facilitate drainage it also promotes retention.

It does retain more water than perlite, but a majority of it is held on the inside of the stone vs. on the surface like perlite. That is how it's able to do a good job of both .

I found my soil become TOO compact and found that my soil would dry out unevenly - with the sides getting dry and pulling away from the containers, yet the middle near root stock staying moist. This resulted in poor root health where things were too dry and too wet at the same time. Not to mention, calcined DE has a rather high pH...

Your soil compaction issue was related to some other input in your mix. People have been growing bonsai plants in straight floordry and various mixes of it and other components for literally decades. Few people using it in ppks also. which are regularly flooded from the top. That type of feeding arrangement compacts media faster than any other I've witnessed. What I'm saying is, if floor dry created compaction issues, neither of those methods would work to grow plants. I have also found just the opposite effect you are describing with the containers drying out unevenly. That sounds more like a result of compacted media, and possibly use of peat without a wetting agent added? Floor dry does have a high PH, but I haven't noticed it having much effect on the nute solution. Further evidenced by the fact that people are growing extremely ph sensitive plants in the stuff.

On top of those issues, I always found myself getting a strange "deficiency" or spotting on my leaves that I could not ever diagnose 100% accurately. This would completely disappear in soils that were not utilizing the calcined type products...

View Image

View Image


There's some other X factor at work here. It's been used for decades to grow some of the most sensitive plants known to man without issue. Perhaps something in your soil reacting with the floor-dry to create lockout? Not sure what would cause that, but I've grown a few hundred plants in the stuff over the last few years, and never had any kind of deficiency/weird growth as a result. That's in both organic soil, and coco.

I honestly wish I had NEVER promoted the product to be used / tried out by other people - because now I have to constantly type out this disclaimer...

All that aside, I personally think THE BEST soil aeration amendment is a product called "PermaTill" - I LOVE THIS STUFF. It is basically indestructible, porous, proper particulate size, does not affect pH and has a very high CEC. It CAN BE used as a 1:1 replacement of perlite, and in most cases I find it takes a bit less as it doesn't break up / crush over time...

(this is not a purchase link but a product information link): http://www.permatill.com/home-garden-products.php?cat=8

I'll never buy a bag of perlite again...pay money for 1/3 a bag of dust....no sir...



dank.Frank

Definitely going to check out permatill, looks like good stuff .

 

[bobblehead]

If I was you I'd buy a bale of promix and mix it in with the old stuff. Get a fresh start. Then get the new mix tested

Probably the best thing to do

(watch me count on my fingers, guys)

is to dump the no-till containers after this run, mix alllll the shit back up with what's been sitting out back, and get THAT tested. In other words, I probably oughtta put all the f'n dirt back in one heap. Probably a good start.

echo echo echo


mix it all together, amend, get it tested, top dress what's missing and supplement with foliar sprays.


I don't think it's the grow rocks. I have them in all of my beds. Floor dry is right up there with coco in my book... good enough for mister d's weed but not for mine.


Btw now I see where the pressure to convert was coming from... your own selfish wants and needs. I should probably get back on the bottle.

 

[silver hawaiian]

echo echo echo


mix it all together, amend, get it tested, top dress what's missing and supplement with foliar sprays.


I don't think it's the grow rocks. I have them in all of my beds. Floor dry is right up there with coco in my book... good enough for mister d's weed but not for mine.

Easy killer

I'm willing to give credit where it's due, but nowhere did you suggest that I oughtta start by corralling all the dang shit in the same dang heap. GTFO of my head!

Also, to make myself clear, no blame is placed on this product or that rock or stone. Just thinking out aloud to acknowledge that yes, despite the fact that there was an effort made to avoid compaction, apparently it's outlived its usefulness. And if we want to argue that it's still useful, that's fine - SOMETHIN' DONE MADE THE SHIT MO' COMPACTER.



Whatever, it's probably just easiest to let you think you're right

BRB gotta go get a fogger



Oh and also

Btw now I see where the pressure to convert was coming from... your own selfish wants and needs. I should probably get back on the bottle.

Correct! There is no such thing as altruism. Now just get on my level and maybe you can have these 12 plants

 

[bobblehead]

Idk why I even post in this thread. ..

 

[LyryC]

bio char!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just got my hands on the first Socal Source for Bio Char.

10lb bag amends 50lb bag of medium soil coco w/e

I'll have more details soon the fool is still starting his company but I'm supposed to get a bag today of the stuff.

 

[silver hawaiian]

I'd why I even post in this thread. ..

Please, someone needs to tell me what I'm thinking