Silicic Acid...what kind?

[G.O. Joe]

You got a reference for that? you are correct that orthosilicic acid isnt soluble at concentrations >120mg/L SiO2 but as i understand it ionic polysilicic acids are highly soluble at pH >10.5 and can reach very concentrated levels not as a colloid.

At high pH I'd think we're talking about the solubility of silicates (yes, ionic ones I presume, but I don't know (care) much about weird silicon chemistry bonding), and we're not talking about acids any more, beyond talking about conjugate acids. The references are pre-60's, in German, by Robert Schwarz, and there's several listed; I don't know which is relevant to that part. I probably have all the articles on disk but I have to go to work tomorrow.

Where I said nearly insoluble, it's not exactly correct but it's not easy to say in other ways - it's only silicic acid when extremely dilute or freshly made (let's not mention pH or the presence of anything else but water), and then you get the polysilicic acids which are not true solutions.

 

[G.O. Joe]

While looking for Ibeco BV (Aptus) patents (nothing), a patent application from Barlaa BV came up - the author is knowledgeable and explains the situation, and his solution to supplying bioavailable silica. IDK if the products made in the patent are sold by anyone, but the patent not only answers this thread, it provides enough detail for copying the idea at home (and what not to do), with phosphoric acid, boric acid, potassium silicate, propylene glycol, etc:
http://www.google.com/patents/US20120276165
MICRO-COLLOIDAL SILICIC ACID / BORIC ACID COMPOSITION AND A METHOD OF PREPARING A BIOENHANCING SOLUTION AND POWDER
US 20120276165 A1

There are similar patents by others, such as
http://www.google.com/patents/US7915198
but I'm not trying to expand the scope of this thread towards making things.

 

[jammie]

Well... The aptus guy said he could drink their product... Don't do it, but it's safe... Well, maybe not the mo... Lol, almost word for word. But it gave me the same thought... Food grade sa. So no mo, which is part of their logic for why their product should be priced so high.

yikes- check out this report from washington state dept of ag. it contains lead, arsenic, selenium, meCommercial Fertilizer

Select Fertilizer Products

Fertilizer Product Information

WSDA Home Pesticide & Fertilizer Home Commercial Fertilizer Home

Questions concerning the fertilizer product displayed on this page can be directed to fertreg@agr.wa.gov.

For animal poisoning or exposure questions, please contact your veterinarian and/or the Animal Poison hotline at 888-232-8870.

For product information other than metals, please contact the company directly. If you can not find the address or telephone number on the label, refer to the registrant information on this database.

The "Total Metals in Product" is the concentration of each listed metal found using the analysis required by WSDA. The Washington standard for metals is based on the concentration of metals in the product and the application rate of the product. To accurately compare products, you need to consider the use rate on the product label.

To access the Washington State Department of Ecology's database of waste-derived and micronutrient fertilizers, click here. [external link]

REGISTRANT: APTUS USA LLC

Mailing Address 17831 SKY PARK CIR STE 12-C-D
Post Office Box
City IRVINE
State CA
Postal Code 92614
Telephone Number 949-748-8777
Fax Number 949-748-8778
PRODUCT: FASILITOR 0-0-0.6

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
(%)

TOTAL METALS IN PRODUCT
(ppm)

Total Nitrogen (N) Arsenic 0.6000
Available Phosphoric Acid (P2O5) Cadmium 0.1000
Soluble Potash (K2O) 0.6000 Cobalt 0.1000
Calcium (Ca) Mercury 0.0500
Magnesium (Mg) Molybdenum 404.3000
Sulfur (S) Nickel 0.6000
Boron (B) Lead 1.2000
Chlorine (Cl) Selenium 5.5000
Cobalt (Co) Zinc 0.2000
Copper (Cu) The symbol "<" indicates the minimum detection limit. The metal was not found at or above the minimum detection limit.
Iron (Fe)
Manganese (Mn)
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0001 Waste-Derived?
Sodium (Na) Micronutrient Fertilizer?
Zinc (Zn) Phosphate-Containing Fertilizer Material?
GYPSUM & LIMING MATERIALS
(%)


(%)

Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) Magnesium Carbonate (MgCO3)
Calcium Carbonate Equivalent (CaCO3) Calcium Sulfate (CaSO42H2O)
rcury!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Avenger]

I think the Aptus fasilitor/regulator is choline stabilised silicic acid with boron and molybdenum. Not the propylene glycol formula.

if it is safe to drink, almost anyway.

 

[G.O. Joe]

I think the Aptus fasilitor/regulator is choline stabilised silicic acid with boron and molybdenum. Not the propylene glycol formula.

I'm not implying or guessing what Fasilitor is or isn't - all I know is that they call it a patented formula in the Aptus growers manual and do not mention choline, and that patent use rights were bought from others or otherwise applied for under another name. I'm not buying any and testing for choline so it's up to someone else to do that.

 

[G.O. Joe]

Fasilitor's label apparently says it's derived from potassium silicate, boric acid, and sodium molybdate, which happens to fit the description of the formula in the patent I posted above. And the 0-0-0.6 NPK fits. Choline contains nitrogen.

The choline products are made from silicon tetrachloride: http://www.google.com/patents/US20060165815
http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs..._stabilised_orthosilic_acid_op_Updated_en.pdf

 

[TheArchitect]

Lol at 250$ a 250mL bottle.

Boron, moly, silica, ppg. Lol. Pennies.

 

[Bongstar420]

...

...

yikes- check out this report from washington state dept of ag. it contains lead, arsenic, selenium, meCommercial Fertilizer

Select Fertilizer Products

Fertilizer Product Information

WSDA Home Pesticide & Fertilizer Home Commercial Fertilizer Home

Questions concerning the fertilizer product displayed on this page can be directed to fertreg@agr.wa.gov.

For animal poisoning or exposure questions, please contact your veterinarian and/or the Animal Poison hotline at 888-232-8870.

For product information other than metals, please contact the company directly. If you can not find the address or telephone number on the label, refer to the registrant information on this database.

The "Total Metals in Product" is the concentration of each listed metal found using the analysis required by WSDA. The Washington standard for metals is based on the concentration of metals in the product and the application rate of the product. To accurately compare products, you need to consider the use rate on the product label.

To access the Washington State Department of Ecology's database of waste-derived and micronutrient fertilizers, click here. [external link]

REGISTRANT: APTUS USA LLC

Mailing Address 17831 SKY PARK CIR STE 12-C-D
Post Office Box
City IRVINE
State CA
Postal Code 92614
Telephone Number 949-748-8777
Fax Number 949-748-8778
PRODUCT: FASILITOR 0-0-0.6

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
(%)

TOTAL METALS IN PRODUCT
(ppm)

Total Nitrogen (N) Arsenic 0.6000
Available Phosphoric Acid (P2O5) Cadmium 0.1000
Soluble Potash (K2O) 0.6000 Cobalt 0.1000
Calcium (Ca) Mercury 0.0500
Magnesium (Mg) Molybdenum 404.3000
Sulfur (S) Nickel 0.6000
Boron (B) Lead 1.2000
Chlorine (Cl) Selenium 5.5000
Cobalt (Co) Zinc 0.2000
Copper (Cu) The symbol "<" indicates the minimum detection limit. The metal was not found at or above the minimum detection limit.
Iron (Fe)
Manganese (Mn)
Molybdenum (Mo) 0.0001 Waste-Derived?
Sodium (Na) Micronutrient Fertilizer?
Zinc (Zn) Phosphate-Containing Fertilizer Material?
GYPSUM & LIMING MATERIALS
(%)


(%)

Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) Magnesium Carbonate (MgCO3)
Calcium Carbonate Equivalent (CaCO3) Calcium Sulfate (CaSO42H2O)
rcury!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is excellent information though I wouldn't be concerned about the effect of the heavy metals in this product. These area actually cleaner than some foods. I would be more concerned about the effect of the silicate since it would be like eating a boat load of CaOH.

Anyways, I dont think the source of Silica matters as long as the undesirables are in the low counts. Silica will be mobilized by the normal chemical processes in the media. Just be wary of undesirables. I saw this stuff I think was called ProTek or something that had Potassium chloride! Chloride in tap water is more than sufficient. I avoid chloride sources like the plague since I hardly flush more than 15% ever.

 

[Avenger]

Fasilitor's label apparently says it's derived from potassium silicate, boric acid, and sodium molybdate, which happens to fit the description of the formula in the patent I posted above. And the 0-0-0.6 NPK fits. Choline contains nitrogen.

The choline products are made from silicon tetrachloride: http://www.google.com/patents/US20060165815
http://www.efsa.europa.eu/en/scdocs..._stabilised_orthosilic_acid_op_Updated_en.pdf

you could be right, or I could be wrong

i don't use it, or care to use it

I just enjoy a good mystery.


http://www.freepatentsonline.com/EP2371220.html

http://www.taminco.com/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=995

 

[milehighmedical]

I'm bringing this back from the dead. Anyone still interested?

 

[sunset limited]

sure. what have you got to add to the conversation?

 

[Papa Wheelie]

http://osa28.com/#faq has some new information regarding silica... what does anyone think about OSA in regards to the previous discussion? Same same or something completely different?

 

[neverforget4/20]

wow $90 for 8oz!

"Haters gonna hate" doesn't give me a feeling of confidence.

@onlyornamental is legit scientist and super knowledgeable about silica. Hope he comes across this thread.

I am testing out calcium silicate. Its way way cheaper, it has published peer reviewed studies and its said to be working in 2 weeks. Best of all it has no or super low K and has about the same effect on pH as calcium carbonate.

 

[Lovesponge]

I'm in agreement with NorCalZero on the Dutch Master Silica additive. Not sure about the "pulling a fast one on us" with the higher %'s on monosilicic acid... As Dutch Master Silica lists 5% monosilicic. I believe Aptus FaSilitor has only about 1.4% - 1.6%. However, FaSilitor has more than just silicic acid. It has L-amino acids and Boron, Boron starting the entire chemical process in soil, and live soilless mediums, as they claim in their "Aptus Bible".

All I know is that FaSilitor is grossly overpriced. I feel they may have some knowledge of what they're doing, but I'm a frugal person. I want affordable positive results. So far, the DM Silica works wonders. Barely messes with your EC at all.

 

[growmeister]

So... after reading all of the content of this thread, including external links, I'm still a bit confused. Can I just go buy potassium silicate and add it to my reservoir as an amendment since apparently once it has dissolved, it turns into bioavailable K ions and silicic acid? Will it only dissolve in high temperature water? Can I not exceed 100ppm of KSiO2 or a reservoir pH of 8 without turning it into polysilicic acid which is not bioavailable? I should have paid attention in chemistry, this stuff is way too extensive!

 

[Lovesponge]

Room temp water should be acceptable. You may possibly be over thinking it. Most silicic acid will swing your pH upwards. I use it as pH up. And the silicic acid I get costs $20. Not very expensive.

 

[neverforget4/20]

There is a sample deal for $9 at the OSA website. Worth a spin for sure.

 

[Only Ornamental]

http://osa28.com/#faq...

They say the following:

While dizziekush is correct in saying there is silicic acid formed at higher pH levels, there is an issue with silicic acid chemistry that he doesn’t address. In weak acid or basic solutions, the silanol groups carry a negative charge, making them ionic and not passable through the cell membrane. Only in extreme acid solutions of <1 does silicic acid stay in the non-ionic monomer form—the bioavailable form everyone talks about.

and are actually wrong. While silicic acid is an acid, it is a very weak one with a pKa of nearly 10. This means roughly that at this non-physiologically high pH, half the molecules are deprotonated once, they carry one negative charge. At physiological pH, less than 0.1% carry a charge, the rest is neutral! But that doesn't mean anything as we don't really know how it's taken up; plants may absorb all kind of ions and molecules and this not necessarily through passive transmembrane diffusion.
Also, it's just semi-stable at pH below 1 though tends to form sub-colloidal particles...

...
@onlyornamental is legit scientist and super knowledgeable about silica. Hope he comes across this thread...

Thanks!
Check out the logical gardener for a deeper explanation on silica chemistry.

...Will it only dissolve in high temperature water? Can I not exceed 100ppm of KSiO2...
...I should have paid attention in chemistry, this stuff is way too extensive!

Dry, non-hydrated potassium silicate only dissolves in hot water and under pressure. Once hydrated enough, it should readily dissolve.
~120 ppm is the saturation concentration for silica and above this, it will precipitate, no matter what you do. Also, dissolving potassium silicate in water at physiological pH will result in silicic acid and potassium hydroxide (respectively potassium salt of whatever is used to adjust the pH).
Even if you did pay more attention in chemistry, chances are very high that you had not a single word about silica chemistry. Even organic chemist students learn more about silicon chemistry (used for example as protection groups) than about silica chemistry . It's a world of its own and pretty weird and poorly understood.

 

[Avenger]

Plant available silicon, soluble silicon in fertilizers.

Plant available silicon, soluble silicon in fertilizers.

According to the American Association of Plant Food Control Officials

Silicon Labeling – The format below should be used for guaranteeing Soluble Silicon (Si) in a dry or liquid fertilizer. The method for Soluble Silicon (Si) is in the Journal of AOAC International, Volume 96, Number 2, 2013, pp 251-259. At this time the method is valid for dry fertilizer and will give a slightly lower number for liquids, but liquids should be analyzed by this method until a method is validated for liquids.

 

[neverforget4/20]

Ive stuck with OSA28 because i dont want the K or the alkalinity. eg.Wollastonite pH10.

I acquired a sample of the crossover product a while back and it did seem to be effective. Last couple of grows I've top dressed my soil pots with dried horsetail (as well as light doses of OSA28).