Sex and the OBBT

[rrog]

This answer may be buried in the 200+ post thread kindly started by our own DrunkenMessiah, and if it is, I apologize for missing it there.

I will be starting from seed. That's a requirement since I have no access to female clones. What I've read deals with inserting seedings in the OBBT. My problem is that they have not yet shown their sex. In my last grow, I raised 6 plants (NL#5) for 2 months in veg and then put them all under 12/12 to force them to show sex. I have scopes, etc for micro-sexing, but was not confident enough in my micro-sexing abilities.

So I'm trying to figure out what to do here. I'd rather not start seedlings in chem ferts for veg, and then switch to OBBT for flower.

Obviously I'm inexperienced, but I learn through endless annoying questions. Thanks for any help from the experienced here.

 

[pray4pistils]

So I'm trying to figure out what to do here. I'd rather not start seedlings in chem ferts for veg, and then switch to OBBT for flower.

Why NOT start them in chem ferts and then switch to organic? The plants aren't going to end up any different. I say that this is the most practical way to get started. There aren't any compromises other than your inability to impress the pure organic snobs around here.

 

[rrog]

Well, I appreciate your thoughts. The whole reason I'm going organic is to reduce the man-made chemicals in the plant fiber that I'll eventually be smoking (vaping). So potentially loading unwanted chemicals into the young plants is something I'm looking to avoid.

I had a huge yield with my chem fert grow. I highly recommend it. I'm just personally going in a different direction. Not looking to be a snob or appeal to snobs.

 

[OrganicMeds]

I would just start my plants in normal pot's (smaller that your OBBT size) with a organic soil with abit of Blood & Bone, EWC, Perlite & lime. Then when you have sexed plants transplant them into your OBBT system.

I would also start up your OBBT system at the same time and let it bubble away letting all those micro's get established with no plants in them, so when you transplant there will be heaps of ready available food for your flowering girls....

 

[rrog]

I know I'm whining. I just hate to start / learn an organic regimen for veg, only to convert completely to another organic system.

I fear I don't have many options.

I sure appreciate your idea. I really do. Thanks

 

[DrunkenMessiah]

I would stick them straight in the tubs from seedlings. Even from mixed bagseed I've never had a problem getting all females. Run a high nitrogen ratio in veg (3/1/1) don't have any airflow directly blowing on the plants, keep a dark night, and most important of all treat with cytokinin foliar sprays. Growing like this I've never had a male when I didn't want one. Good luck and happy gardening!

-DM

 

[pray4pistils]

The whole reason I'm going organic is to reduce the man-made chemicals in the plant fiber that I'll eventually be smoking (vaping). So potentially loading unwanted chemicals into the young plants is something I'm looking to avoid.

The reason for my casual attitude towards using chemicals in veg is because the end product won't be any different. It's only the *end product* that's important, right?

Consider this... Let's say that you get some plants established and they're say... 1 foot tall before you flip to 12/12. Then you start flowering with completely organic nutes. The plants double or triple in size. (I'm talking about overall foliage + buds -not just height.) How much of the original plant is left? -VERY little. Secondly, if a 14-day pre-harvest flush is enough time to rid a completely salt-fed plant, then the 9 weeks (etc.) that you grow organically is waaaaay more than sufficient to rid the plants of any/all synthetic compounds.

Putting cool points and snobbery aside, I say go with what's most *practical*. For perspective, I'm enthusiastic about organic growing. I think it's darned cool to more closely emulate nature. I eat organically when I can, etc. If I can get the same result with organics as with salts, then I'm 100% for doing it God's way. And, that's just the point. To me it's all about the *end product* vs. the means to get there.

Carry on.

P.S. DM, I've got my own OBBT results to report soon (two full harvests since I posted in your thread). Most of it will directly support your grow theories and philosophy. Some points will stir controversy among the organic purists.

 

[rrog]

DM:

I'm nervous about depending on the technique to push 100% female through environmental manipulation. I'm not saying I doubt you, but you don't see / hear about this much. Seems that if that technique worked with near absoluteness, we'd all be doing it. But people are still agonizing over sexing the plants, feminized seeds, etc. Again. makes me nervous. And hard to have a grow room with no fan on plants. I'm still whining, obviously.

I'm not running nutes with your OBBT, so I wouldn't be running high Nitrogen? You threw me with that comment.

Pray4Pistils:

I hear you. If I thought that all of the chemicals were removed with a pre-harvest flush, then I wouldn't be looking at Organic at all. I agree with you 100% that it's all about the finished product.

The fact is I am (personally) not at all convinced that chemicals are completely removed during flush. I have found very little research on this, so it's all peoples personal opinions I'm reading.

The scientist side of me says that odd chemicals, trace elements, etc could be harmful to me. These same elements could be incorporated into plant tissue and be un-flush-able. No proof or data, though I'd love to see some.

So I'm hoping to take the conservative approach and eliminate man-made items from the grow altogether if possible / practical.

 

[rrog]

I would just start my plants in normal pot's (smaller that your OBBT size) with a organic soil with abit of Blood & Bone, EWC, Perlite & lime. Then when you have sexed plants transplant them into your OBBT system.

I think that's about as good as I'm gonna get. And let's face it, like Pray4 said, it's all good.

I'm thinking now about a 4 week veg period. I did 8 weeks last time in chem fert, but I have too much harvested bud, frankly. I'm only looking at quality in this next grow.

So maybe I'll start 6 seedlings in 24/0 for 4 weeks. Switch all into 12/12 for a week and see who's female. Take the 3 best females and put each in their own 5 gallon OBBT. 5 weeks from start to finish.

Insert them into a saved hole in the big 5 gallon OBBT, like RVW did.


I wonder if a quart size would work for the 5 weeks of veg?

Not sure soil or compost could last that long without chem nutes?

Any comments on this? Thanks

 

[Dalaihempy]

rrog mate you need to look at growing in a basic way sexing is part of it dont let people tell you any diffrent the sex of a plant will show when they sex full stop.

 

[rrog]

rrog mate you need to look at growing in a basic way sexing is part of it dont let people tell you any diffrent the sex of a plant will show when they sex full stop.

Hi Dalai,

I hear you. Thank you. I think my above plan is solid. Just need to figure out what size pot to plant these in. 1 quart? 1/2 gal? 1/2 quart?

I just need to grow them for 5 weeks from a seedling.

 

[Citizen024]

Funny, I have seen them so many times that I can usually tell who's who within a couple days of them showing the first true leaf set. The boys go tall fast, the girls short and dense leaf sets. After awhile and looking at lots of starts you start to be able to tell the boys real early on- and I am about 90%+ accurate even though I wait for them to show. A good gardener can usually sex most of their plants without having to switch to 12/12. I have never heard of DM's method of controlling sex. Clearly influencing hormones could have a huge impact on them, fully believe it might be possible to induce femaleness. I am all clone anyways, so not a concern, but an interested none the less.

If you do it RROG, please post pics from start to finish, I would love to be able to see if they show the same signs as typical. Even more so if they change direction, that would be really cool to see!

 

[rrog]

Oh I'll have a grow log, all right C024. Great fun.

I'll try the OBBT technique 100% exactly as outlined and see what happens.

 

[LadyLargely]

Sex control gets a bad rap. People treat it like voodoo but it is real. High nitrogen in veg, no topping/trimming, passive air circulation (no wind on the plants), lots of cytokinin and a few other tricks will produce nearly all females from mixed seed. Cannabis sex is not determined by genetics so much as it is by the environment. Any plant can go either way (or both, hermie), it all depends on what happens to it as it goes through veg. Given the correct surroundings indeterminate cannabis plants will go female everytime. Stay tuned in to my Grow Show, there will be many more details on this process soon.

 

[rrog]

I'm tuned in. I'm taking tons of notes so I appreciate all my questions. All I can do is try and make up for my inexperience by asking questions of the experts for as long as they'll have me

Thanks

 

[Dalaihempy]

Funny, I have seen them so many times that I can usually tell who's who within a couple days of them showing the first true leaf set. The boys go tall fast, the girls short and dense leaf sets. After awhile and looking at lots of starts you start to be able to tell the boys real early on- and I am about 90%+ accurate even though I wait for them to show. A good gardener can usually sex most of their plants without having to switch to 12/12. I have never heard of DM's method of controlling sex. Clearly influencing hormones could have a huge impact on them, fully believe it might be possible to induce femaleness. I am all clone anyways, so not a concern, but an interested none the less.

If you do it RROG, please post pics from start to finish, I would love to be able to see if they show the same signs as typical. Even more so if they change direction, that would be really cool to see!

Hi mate well i would have to disagree here becouse even when there 6 inch tall you cant tell there sex my cussins brotherinlaw tryed to tell me once that you can tell there sex by smell he went threw each plant in this plot i took him to and funny inuf even tho he sed x amount were males they all sexed and were female.

I have seen males show stretch before females yes but only as there going into flower mode in short as there put into 12/12 or out doors as the day lite reduces and the plants are about to sex but not always.

Lots of thearys on erly sexing but only true way to sex a plant is for it the plant to show you.

 

[Citizen024]

Ever see the single white pistol early on right at the node? Yes, I am sure you have. Or the little balls that form on a male (with tall node gaps too mind you)? These appear with no 12/12 quite often.

It might take a little while, but there are clues that happen well before 12/12. I am not saying that you should chuck a plant in the first week cause it grows tall. But by 2-3 weeks of your paying attention you should have at least an educated guess at who's who. I have done it so many times, and seriously, there is more then a "lucky" guess corrolation at work.

I am not out for an argument for sure, it just seems there is something about the node gap/leaf growth/preflower. I didn't make this up, and I am not the only one who has noticed this: i.e. well published Jorge Cervantes and Ed Rosenthal to name a few.

Your right, the only way to know for sure is to bring then into 12/12. That being said: look around in nature at male/females sexes. Everywhere you look you will see dramatic differences in how the genders look and behave. Birds, insects, fish, animals and plants. Rarely do you see identical genders. Our plants happen to be no different, and IMO they do give subtle differences that have nothing to do with flowers and everything to with different behavior.

Nuff said on this subject, agree to disagree is fine with me.

 

[LadyLargely]

...even when there 6 inch tall you cant tell there sex my cussins brotherinlaw tryed to tell me once that you can tell there sex by smell he went threw each plant in this plot i took him to and funny...

*Snrkt*

Yea Citizen024, DalaiHempy's retarded cousin who thought he could smell the sex of a cannabis plant couldn't read/control early sex so obviously we can't either!

 

[Dalaihempy]

Ever see the single white pistol early on right at the node? Yes, I am sure you have. Or the little balls that form on a male (with tall node gaps too mind you)? These appear with no 12/12 quite often.

It might take a little while, but there are clues that happen well before 12/12. I am not saying that you should chuck a plant in the first week cause it grows tall. But by 2-3 weeks of your paying attention you should have at least an educated guess at who's who. I have done it so many times, and seriously, there is more then a "lucky" guess corrolation at work.

I am not out for an argument for sure, it just seems there is something about the node gap/leaf growth/preflower. I didn't make this up, and I am not the only one who has noticed this: i.e. well published Jorge Cervantes and Ed Rosenthal to name a few.

Your right, the only way to know for sure is to bring then into 12/12. That being said: look around in nature at male/females sexes. Everywhere you look you will see dramatic differences in how the genders look and behave. Birds, insects, fish, animals and plants. Rarely do you see identical genders. Our plants happen to be no different, and IMO they do give subtle differences that have nothing to do with flowers and everything to with different behavior.

Nuff said on this subject, agree to disagree is fine with me.

Mate im not hear to argue but you and i both know that the true way to sex any plants when he or she or it shows its self i do and have for many decades watched my plants only way to educate your self in this hobbie and node spacing or even a look of a plant dont mean it will be wat you think yes
paying attention you should have at least an educated guess at who's who but untill the plant shows you you dont know 100% correct.


Nuff said on this subject, agree to disagree is fine with me also.

*Snrkt*

Yea Citizen024, DalaiHempy's retarded cousin who thought he could smell the sex of a cannabis plant couldn't read/control early sex so obviously we can't either!

lady lisen real good your starting to piss me off what real advice are you giveing rrog here lady ? Yes not a dam thing .

Was my cussins brother inlaw infact whos grown plants longer than you been alive i mite add.

Stik to the growing facts here not one of you have done this your telling rrog to spray his plants with hormones not to have a fan blowing on them bla bla to have fems please sexing will be what tells you what sex your plants are stik to basics and real info you fail to see rrog is not an expert or self clamed expert but a grower that is asking for some advice he can put into practise.

rrog stik to your plan mate take clones of each and place plants in to sex then you will know wat you have you can flower out the all ready sexing plants and grow your clones that way you will have something to smoke if shit goes south with your experement also.

 

[LadyLargely]

Just because you do something for a long time doesn't mean you know everything, or even a lot, about it. I find that people who have been involved in a particular hobby or industry for a long time start to get all voodoo about things. Your cousin's convincing himself that he could smell early sex is a fine example. I'm sure the man was a fine gardener, lots of experience, but that doesn't mean he wasn't wrong.

As for what I've taught rrog I would say it has been a bit more than 'not a damn thing'

If you would turn your attention to the very top of this thread. What does it say? Oh goodness! He's asking about OBBTs? Gee golly DalaiHempy, who the fuck came up with OBBTs? Yea.

So in fact the entire precedence of this conversation is based on things that rrog has learned from me. I happen to think that I've reached a greater harmony with nature than most gardeners bother to do. Certainly much more so than you have, what with your soil-less non-organic grow method! Why the fuck are you in here again? I know you don't read very well Hempy but the title of this particular corner of the forums starts with the word "Organic"

I happen to be teaching rrog, along with a decent chunk of this community I might add, about a new and interesting all-organic grow method. You have never done any such thing. Until you have you may keep your opinions concerning organic gardening to yourself.