Serious talk about legalization

[jaysplifferton]

These are good points however I disagree that for Cannabis to be legalized everyone needs to accept is as harmless just a majority of us. There will always be small minded people. Shoot look at the KKK or Neo-Nazis just plain ignorant. You will be hard pressed to change those hard core extremists views.
This is where you only need to get the majority and that is just one person over 50%. MADD will always be here, TRUTH will always be here those organizations will always be around and I'm sure that some PO'd soccer mom with nothing better to do will come up with some save the children campaign and organization.

I have to believe that the majority of America is not that ignorant. Especially now that the 60's and 70's population is becoming the power players and the old crows are dying off. With younger politicians and people in power we will become a more progressive society.

Yeah man I wasn't trying to be antagonistic at all. I am just frustrated because of the way things are. I always believed the gov't isn't supposed to be able to control what we put in our bodies or what we think, and that what a person does shouldn't be illegal unless it harms another person or another person's property. You know, "freedom" or whatever.

My real beef is just with narrowminded people who already have their minds made up against pot with no basis. In the 60's and 70's (from documentaries I've watched), it seems like people wanted to rebel against what they were told; it was hip to smoke pot and hate the government. People wanted to be independent.

But when I was a kid (the 90's), this was replaced by this defeatist "why care" sort of attitude. Now, because of the slacker thing, nobody wants to challenge anything or be on the edge. It's not cool to think for yourself anymore or question what's around you. You just take it. I think the real mantra of the slacker movement is: "idealism is stupid" or "quit while you're ahead, never start" or something.

It's sad to think that the War On Drugs has become part of our culture. Even people who are against it have to lie and say that they've never used drugs in order to get a job (I'm in that process right now). Too much of our infrastructure is built up around the hopeless boondoggle war on drugs. It's not right. How do we change people's minds? Can we get PBS to show "GRASS" on TV? Or raise money for a marijuana-theme night on American Idol?

After Bush winning 2 elections, and Skeletor and the Moosehunter almost taking this last one, I just don't know. How do you change people's minds? Not everyone's but enough people.

 

[raygun]

If it was legal guys like me would lose their houses. LOL

I'm all for legalization 100%

What would happen though is people like us - the people of this forum would be lost - Big corporations would jump in and make big money! Billions of dollars!!!

You dont see too many brew shops around becasue people dont need to spend the money when they have unlimited choices at the local bar or store.

yeah sure, its super cheap to plant a few seeds in your backyard like tomatoes but how many people live on the tomatoes they grow. There is a billion dollar tomatoe business owned by big corps rigth now.

My point being i think it would be great to legalize but...the people that profit will be the wrong people. The Chinese will mass produce this just like everything else and it will be less than a dollar for the best pot...

Tell me is that good or bad?

People like you just need to get Lic and I'm sure that you can find clientel that would want your cannabis over what phillip morris could produce. Think about it. We currently have that type of system now with imported brick and commercial BC or other commercially grown cannabis VS what I can produce. I know my friends would rather have a fat bag of raygun's sensi cannabis over what else is available.

As for the beer I guess it is similar but also there are many micro breweries poping up and I know if I had one near me I would get my beer from them, If it was good. However alot of it happend during prohibition when many of the little guys could not stay afloat during those dry years and once it was repealled only the large corporations were left. Its slowly making a come back as you have probably seen at your local beer isle vs what you could get in the 90's

I don't think that you can produce the quality the market will desire from china on an assembly line. Or from any other extreamly large scale as you are thinking such as tobacco or booze.

 

[IE2KS_KUSH]

I don't think that you can produce the quality the market will desire from china on an assembly line. Or from any other extreamly large scale as you are thinking such as tobacco or booze.

You can do anything with enough money, why wouldn't we be able to! I love Marlboro Reds, I think hands down they are the best cigs on earth, and I would prefer them to any homegrown hand rolled cigs! LOL
I think that visualizing that kind of future is bizarre, because it is so far from where we are you know! Necessity is the mother of invention, we have never had the chance for a large scale high quality type of phillip morris set up that we have with other stuff. But if we did, someone would figure out a way quick fast and in a hurry you betcha!

 

[raygun]

IE - I don't think you can compare tobacco to cannabis, or at least cig tobacco. If you go talk to a pipe tobacco smoker or cigar smoker/connasiour they will tell you its a world of difference.
Cigarettes are the equivalent of mexi brick rolled in to joints and sold in a pack of 20 if you compare them to the whole tobacco industry. Yes I have found some good mexi brick but its still mexi brick....

You still think that they could produce and have it be cost effective the same quality as the co-op specializing in the newest best shit available? I don't.

Also you have this microcosm of highly perfected marijuana growing caused by the illegal status of the herb. Tobacco never needed nor had these restriction so the industry did its thing. A corporation looking at # only will not see the cost benefit to maintaining a super grow that produced AAAA++++ all the way to market. You are talking about hand trimming butt loads of plants until an automated way could be produced that rivaled the care that hand trimming gives. Then you have to package that product and send it off. Think of all the big commercial growers and bud that is out there. It is of better quality than what you could produce or a smaller co-op could produce? I don't think so. RJ Reynolds would not care to grow any kush or low yeild strain, they would rather push big bud its more cost efficient.

You forget that big corporation and top quality rarely go hand in hand. Artisans and specialty shops still flourish why? Because some consumers demand a higher quality product. I would rather buy local baked bread from the bakery than some packaged commercial bread. It just tastes better.

 

[jaysplifferton]

I gotta agree, ray, the whole local-artisan thing would def apply to weed. It's become like a science to make a lot of the high-tech strains; they are bred for a very specific environment. I would imagine that to do a whole field of them would be quite difficult, especially keeping it consistent and free of seeds and mold.

If there were "headies" being sold broadly and commercially, they would probably have extra costs much like "hot house" tomatoes or organic milk compared to their non-specialty counterparts.

I've heard that the pot in Amsterdam is often poorly prepped and/or cured, at least that it's worse than a lot of the good "headies" from here and Canada, and it's legal there. I'm sure there are other factors to consider, but the commercial aspect has got to be a biggie.

 

[bbing]

Dont want to derail (good thread)...but...
Want to back it up for a just a sec;
why does the amount need to be controlled again?
(please go back as far as you can...just takes a second. Thanks

because if it wasn't controlled; ___________ would happen.

I think there may be plenty of evidence of large grows all over the world (in both controlled and non-controlled environments) can produce every bit the quality that i can in smaller scale (maybe even better efficiency in some cases).

I think handling after harvest and distribution related issues would have more neg impact on quality that grow re: issues. It's not a bunch of bean tossers out there that just come back 4 month later (allthough that was some of the best shit I have ever smoked).

P.S. Maybe that Mexi-brick weed would have a lot more quality characteristics if it didn't have to be stored in oil drums then compacted and put into truck tires.... Heheehehe.

 

[raygun]

bbing - I see what you are saying and in a perfect world yes that would be what may happen. Like I said I would like there to be no limits for personal growing.

However to keep every one happy we can't just open the gates with no regulation. Bible thumpers and conservatives will have a conniption screaming "..but,but....the cheeelldren... what about the children..." so just like alcohol production is limited so should this controlled substance.
It just falls in line with current regulations for, well everything.

Regulate and control large scale production, tax and lic. the product and establish a whole new economy and legal business. But if you are caught selling with out a lic and you were growing it as well you are screwed. Much like alcohol you are not really limited to how much you can personal brew but don't sell it or manufacture it for sale with out being properly lic.

Why can it not be regulated just like alcohol?

open debate please keep it civil....

 

[bbing]

I can totally relate to what your saying Raygun, but once, while here on these boards, I came across a thread with one particularly militant individual (yeah, we have one or two around here ) He really hammered this point home with me and I must say it change my thinking about this.

Alot of us would be willing to give our left nut to legitimatize what we do.
Years of paranoia and covert effort has even softened me up and I probably would endorse your suggestion if it were presented today.

...so just like alcohol production is limited so should this controlled substance.

<---But why???????

control for the sake of control doesn't fly in my book. Nor does the idea "because conservative Christians will be mad".

If we believe what we have posted about cannabis; there is no way to concede control without undermining the very foundation of our argument.

That it does have medicinal use doesn't automatically necessitate its control. That should be based on potential for abuse/addiction, as well as adverse health or safety reasons.

Alcohol fits the above criteria to a "T".
Cannabis does not.

Distortions, concessions, and deal making is what landed us in this position to begin with. The process by which errant science can be championed into National policy w/o appropriate balances needs to be examined. My guess is that when this happened there was alot going on and the American public was too distracted by other events to question or demand the appropriateness of this legislation...and then,
an industry had built up around it and it was too late to go back. Lets keep Industry OUT!!!!!!!!

 

[raygun]

The reason for control is everything is controlled from water to beef to what you can legally call chocolate and milk and eggs and produce and what you can call organic ect... its all regulated and controlled. So we have to play ball. Your argument as to why does it have to be controlled its because we have to play ball with the gov't. Their is no way in hell that they will ever allow uncontrolled anything in commerce or that is given to the public.

If you are saying that it should be legal for personal use only and that no commercial production should be allowed, I'm all for that but where is the $$$ in that? We need to show the people the $$$ that could be brought back in to the system and the jobs that legalization and regulation can bring to the economy.

Also if you just legalized it for personal use how would you control or determine if the grow is personal use or not? What is the defining line between legal and illegal? With no regulations or control you have no guidelines and all hell will break loose as it then becomes a personal opinion of the local law and that is not where I want to be. Allowing the police to determine if I'm growing for personal or productions for sale...

If you bring in industry we have much more financial pull and that is unfortunately how this world and this gov't works.

Please keep the thoughts coming. The more issues brought up the more detailed we can get and the better the counter to the concern from opposition for legalization and regulation will be.

Safe Growing everyone
~raygun~

 

[bbing]

Alright FINE!

I'll sign it.....
but...
under duress!

 

[Stay Puft]

I wish to mention one of the ways we citizens can help the push to legalize:

I used to be hopeful that the schedule system would be changed or abolished altogether, with the support of our elected officials.
I now believe it will to take the same civic action that was the final push to get alcohol prohibition repealed.
That civic action was "Jury Nullification" by juries throughout the US. Did you know it got to the point that ~ 60% of the alcohol prohibition cases were nullified by the juries towards the end of prohibition?
These days, Judges do not inform juries that they are not only trying the case, but ALSO the law itself!
Lawyers are not allowed to talk to juries about "nullification" . If a judge thinks a juror intends to nullify, they will dismiss that Juror faster than you can blink!


I wonder how fast they would get you out of the Jury Duty pool if you were to bring up the term "Jury Nullification" while waiting for selection with other potential jurors? Just inform you fellow potential jurors the following:

I know it is my duty as well as my right to judge both the case and the law.

I bet you will be home by lunch. (It is all good thou-you will be leaving a room full of jurors thinking about it!)

It has started: http://snardfarker.ning.com/profiles/blogs/jury-nullification-peers

 

[jaysplifferton]

I wonder how fast they would get you out of the Jury Duty pool if you were to bring up the term "Jury Nullification" while waiting for selection with other potential jurors? Just inform you fellow potential jurors the following:

I bet you will be home by lunch. (It is all good thou-you will be leaving a room full of jurors thinking about it!)

WOW! Thank you very much, Stay Puft. I think you just helped me get out of jury duty. for all the right reasons.

 

[Stay Puft]

I retract my bet!
Reason:
I have done some more reading and...Check this out..
You may find yourself facing "Jury Tampering" if you even talk about nullification inside a courthouse. (Sidewalk is cool thou!)

Mr. Splifferton,
I am sad to hear that if I asked for your help, when the establishment ( a.k.a.-judicial system) was trying to railroad me, you would try to "get out of it" .... What if it was you brother????MORE
Cut and paste from Ref site below:

If You Are Called For Jury Service

Don't worry! Be happy! Look at jury service as an opportunity to "do good" for yourself and others. It's your chance to help the justice system deliver justice, which is absolutely essential to a free society.

Also, you can do more "political good" as a juror than in practically any other way as a citizen: your vote on the verdict is also a measure of public opinion on the law itself--an opinion which our lawmakers are likely to take seriously. Short of being elected to office yourself, you may never otherwise have a more powerful impact on the rules we live by than you will as a trial juror.


The best thing we can do is inform people of their rights and duty and to be informed when they serve on a jury.

Please look here for further information:
http://www.fija.org/

BTW- (IMHO)These BS M.M.S. actually helps juries decide FOR Nullification!

 

[IE2KS_KUSH]

This is easily the most realistic means by which to reach our end. ^^^
Sad that I have yet to hear this from any "advocate groups". Wonder why? Guess it's better for the C3s to continue the fight and never win, if they did start a real campaign to educate cannabis users about this, and it was succesful, guess who is out of a job. Not real easy to take advantage of, er I mean, solicit donations for the non-profits in the guise of "fighting for the cause" when there is no cause. Know what I mean.
Maybe I am just a glass is half empty guy. But I really believe MPP and others are just going through the motions, knowing all the while they will simply be able to sustain this "battle" for some time to come. If they were serious about it, why wouldn't they be educating each and every person about this issue. It's the one thing that every person can actually do.
Great post staypuff, keep on hammering this home. I am betting jury nullification is by far our best hope, and so far as I can tell, the only way prohibition has ever been defeated.

 

[drmagix42]

Fuck that, I dont want to pay taxes on my weed and dont want regulations on growing it either. If weed becomes commercial, kiss all the 70 week strains good bye, all thats left is 30-40 day shit or hash if were lucky

 

[raygun]

Fuck that, I dont want to pay taxes on my weed and dont want regulations on growing it either. If weed becomes commercial, kiss all the 70 week strains good bye, all thats left is 30-40 day shit or hash if were lucky

You are only taxed if you purchase it from a store or want to grow commercially. If you are growing for personal use there is no tax or lic. It would be just like alcohol. You can brew your own beer just don't brew for sale and you are all good.

Weed is already commercial... why not allow it to be legal and fall in line just like every other commodity that is bought and sold.

You can still grow those 70+ day strains. You will also have the artisan growers who supply the connoisseur with those long flowering high flying sativas and low yeilding knock out indicas.

Stay Puft- your post is a great thing to remind people about.

 

[jaysplifferton]

I wasn't trying to be an A-hole, just to make light of most people's aversion to jury duty.

I went in a year or two ago. Didn't get picked though.

The fact is, I'm really not at a point in my life where jury duty is an option. $15 dollars a day is nothing, and I have a less-than-supportive employer. I'm glad to know about this though for the future; thanx for the info.

I think the bigger question regarding legalization has to do with convincing people who hate pot or usually more broadly drugs in general that users aren't criminals, and that it's only our definition of the law that makes them so. Also, if there was a way to reverse the drugs = crime equation in most people's heads to a black markets = crime which is a much more truthful correlation. To look for the reason behind the obvious simple answer. Critical thinking is critical, I'm thinking.

 

[raygun]

...
I think the bigger question regarding legalization has to do with convincing people who hate pot or usually more broadly drugs in general that users aren't criminals, and that it's only our definition of the law that makes them so. Also, if there was a way to reverse the drugs = crime equation in most people's heads to a black markets = crime which is a much more truthful correlation. To look for the reason behind the obvious simple answer. Critical thinking is critical, I'm thinking.

I hear you on the Jury Duty its a bum deal especially with unsupported employers. My old employer would actually pay us for working that day we were in JD. They were big on civil duty and giving back to the community. It was nice.. Ok back to the point.

You make a very good point. I think that its fun to debate with those people who are so against it. One guy I know said he does not want it legal because.. ok get this....some family member was in Vietnam and his platoon leader was always high and so this guy blames his stoned leader for getting him shot, not killed just wounded. Now today that wound became cancerous or some weird crap and this guy blames this all on the fact the platoon leader was high... at least that was his big argument...

This guy even use to smoke weed!!! He tells me this right after he finishes a cigarette and sits down to have another beer....

This is the idiocy we have to overcome.

It looks like the wheels are a turning in our favor for sensible laws however.

 

[j6p]

 

[ChronJohn]

My Two Cents

My Two Cents

Nice bump heh heh never saw this thread til now. I like the OP's idea, I think that if we are to convince our elected officials and fellow citizens that legalization is viable, we should at least have a plan to back that up. So here are my opinions and recommendations on the matter:

- I like the idea of keeping the commercially produced product within the state (personal should be able to be transported wherever it's legal). But what's stopping the Phillip Morriss' and R.J. Reynold's from buying a few hundred acres in every state and doing it that way? Or contracting out to growers in those states, and just controlling the distribution in the state? I can see enforcement of this being a special stamp though. If each state has a unique stamp, and the shipments (and individual products) all have that stamp, that stamp can't be valid for sale in other states. Just an idea.

-Just like liquor licenses vary greatly (from a few hundred to many thousands of $$), so too will Cannabis Licenses. So therefore it is impossible to postulate the amount of money that could be put into state coffers. What we could do is look at alcohol consumption in each state, and the amount that state takes in in licensing fees, and extrapolate for current cannabis use and similar licensing costs (for low end estimates since use will probably go up).

-As for taxes, I say we should not put a flat rate excise tax on cannabis. I have always been opposed to this, because in a legal market, the price will surely drop exponentially as production increases. So while $30-$50 an oz tax seems reasonable now, that is only because currently the price of an oz is between $200-$600 depending on location, so that figures out to be only a 5%-25% tax. However, in a legal market, an oz could very well cost $5-$10 and suddenly that $50 an oz tax is a 500%-1000% tax- or prices could stay high due to high demand we just don't know. But in order to keep the prices from being prohibitively high thus maintaining a constant black market presence, if we are to create a special tax just for cannabis, make it a percentage-based tax. Just like there are special meal taxes, or candy taxes. Something between 10%-20% is reasonable enough. Add that to the sales tax, the income tax from the added income of all involved parties, the payroll tax of the new employees at all levels of distribution etc and you have a buttload of money just waiting to be deposited to state (and Federal) treasuries everywhere. No need for them to get greedy now, they spend recklessly enough as is.. but I digress.

- A new regulatory body should be added to regulate commercial supply. What's the minimum the product should be flushed for? What nutrients are used? What pesticides are used for outside crops (if it's anything like the pesticides used for tobacco... *shudder*)? What's the THC%? Has the company paid all relevant taxes? Are there the proper stamps and labels on the product? I think the label on the finished product should display at least the following:

• Strain name
• Company name
• THC%
• Length of flush
• Length of cure

Other additional info can be added at the manufacturers desire, such as what company's nutes they used (ie GH or AN logo on the packaging), company background and contact info (such as tele # and website), grow method etc.

-AGE LIMIT. No one's mentioned this yet... I say 18. We should not equate it to a substance as harmful as alcohol by making the age limit the same. I say at 18 a brain is developed enough to not possibly be damaged (I'd say for most of the population, the presence of THC in the brain could only be an improvement..) and of course they are a legal adult and can make their own health/intoxicant decisions. Plus, why should we make college kids and Armed Forces members criminals for using a substance safer than 99% of anything else we could put in our bodies (even water overdose is possible)?

-Taxes from the "paraphernalia" industry, the HEMP INDUSTRY (huge! a completely different animal imo and I only mention because it's a new industry birthed out of the legalization of cannabis, if hemp legalization doesn't happen before then), and all subsequent industries such home grow shops (no more "It's for tomatoes"), pharmaceutical companies etc will also show a HUGE increase in the state coffers and definitely need to be considered when discussing legalization.

This is what I have to say so far... dinner's getting cold, if I think of more I'll come back and add. Peace.