Select or Open Pollination to make F2's?
- Thread starter Pig-Pen
- Start date
ThirdEyeVision
Member
well it depends on what you consider a large enough population.
But i would say open pollinate for sure then take your best m/f and mate them the next round
Grow em both out and see what your working with. Now your on your way to a nice project.
But i would say open pollinate for sure then take your best m/f and mate them the next round
Grow em both out and see what your working with. Now your on your way to a nice project.
Charles Xavier
Member
Greetings Pig-Pen
It almost entirely depends on the ultimate goals of the breeder i.e. what is being attempted to be accomplished through the exploration and extrapolation of a specific genetic line.
The other small consideration is space; which leads to this aside:
The small (but enormous in implication) detail that is often overlooked is: you won't necessarily obtain all possible genetic combinations in the F2 generation, irrespective of population size. This is where selection becomes advantageous, because in essence one is skewing the results of the 'genetic roulette wheel' in one's favour.
In other words:
"...You can't always get what you want
[relying on open pollination
to provide all possible genetic combination]
But if you try sometimes you just might find
[using proper selection
of specimens from the F1 generation]
You just might find
You get what you need..."Jagger/Richards
In this aspect of the 'hobby', there is very little good reason for open pollination (and the vast majority are not dealing with a large enough initial population to begin with, so the concept of open pollination when applied is at best a misnomer and oft times moot).
XyZ addresses an important theoretical point. A true [polar] F1 is consistent through the generation; therefore selection to create the F2 is redundant.
Selection becomes advantageous because a true [polar] F1 is extremely rare and phenotypic variation is likely to be seen.
A tangent:
Let us all for the sake of avoiding needless argument assume that XyZ is quite aware that "(indica/sativa - 50/50)"...XyZ is not alone in constituting a true F1 hybrid and that he was simply using this combination as a basic example; one of many examples that represent the concept of a true [polar] F1.
Sincerely,
Charles.
It almost entirely depends on the ultimate goals of the breeder i.e. what is being attempted to be accomplished through the exploration and extrapolation of a specific genetic line.
The other small consideration is space; which leads to this aside:
The small (but enormous in implication) detail that is often overlooked is: you won't necessarily obtain all possible genetic combinations in the F2 generation, irrespective of population size. This is where selection becomes advantageous, because in essence one is skewing the results of the 'genetic roulette wheel' in one's favour.
In other words:
"...You can't always get what you want
[relying on open pollination
to provide all possible genetic combination]
But if you try sometimes you just might find
[using proper selection
of specimens from the F1 generation]
You just might find
You get what you need..."Jagger/Richards
In this aspect of the 'hobby', there is very little good reason for open pollination (and the vast majority are not dealing with a large enough initial population to begin with, so the concept of open pollination when applied is at best a misnomer and oft times moot).
XyZ addresses an important theoretical point. A true [polar] F1 is consistent through the generation; therefore selection to create the F2 is redundant.
Selection becomes advantageous because a true [polar] F1 is extremely rare and phenotypic variation is likely to be seen.
A tangent:
Let us all for the sake of avoiding needless argument assume that XyZ is quite aware that "(indica/sativa - 50/50)"...XyZ is not alone in constituting a true F1 hybrid and that he was simply using this combination as a basic example; one of many examples that represent the concept of a true [polar] F1.
Sincerely,
Charles.
Last edited:
Yes Charly ...you understand my point... good to have some folks around with an open & peaceful mind :smile:
the blueberry & bubblegum were both inbred-lines & the seeds from the cross are in my F1 collection
...so i also don't "hold" always only on this specific definition (ie half-half indica/sativa
the blueberry & bubblegum were both inbred-lines & the seeds from the cross are in my F1 collection
...so i also don't "hold" always only on this specific definition (ie half-half indica/sativa
Pig-Pen
Member
Very good. I too was thinking that if using true F1's to make F2's for breeding (assuming a large F2 population will be used to draw from), then selection of the F1's would be inconsequential to the overall outcome and variation of the F2's.
Now, let's assume that the F1's in this situation aren't true F1's but rather F5's (iirc...DJ's F-13),
and the goal is to simply find a mother or two with the desired combination of traits.
Would choosing parents that most predominantly display the desired traits necessarily increase the probability of the offspring displaying those same characteristics?
Now, let's assume that the F1's in this situation aren't true F1's but rather F5's (iirc...DJ's F-13),
and the goal is to simply find a mother or two with the desired combination of traits.
Would choosing parents that most predominantly display the desired traits necessarily increase the probability of the offspring displaying those same characteristics?
i would select a male based on good charicteristics...
'open pollinations' denotes some form of lazy/retardation...
the seeds are near impossible to track to a parent and you'll get traits out of everywhere... some redundant others new. to make that work you'll need a room you can safely grow out 200-400 seeds so you can whitness the massive variance.
'open pollinations' denotes some form of lazy/retardation...
the seeds are near impossible to track to a parent and you'll get traits out of everywhere... some redundant others new. to make that work you'll need a room you can safely grow out 200-400 seeds so you can whitness the massive variance.
yes it does, thats why we try to choose 'good' males for our breeding projects.pigpen said:
The F-13 is not a stable inbred-line like the original blueberry but it's quasi-hybrid between 2 separately inbred blue lines, so the next generation (F-13xF-13) will give some diversity, also with relatively small plant numbers. suggest you read a bit through the Dj'Short forum, a bit experimentation was already done with this strain (both inbreeding & out-crossingPig-Pen said:
practice gives the best answer ...good luck with your adventures!
DIGITALHIPPY said:
Another way is to discard all males with undesireable traits, keep as many males as possible, pollinate under controlled circumstances and use the one wich gives the best offspring. There are a number of ways to approach this, depending on your resources in terms of space, and how ambitious you are in getting what you want.
Charles Xavier said:
"The answer, my friend, is blowin' in the wind[male pollen], The answer is blowin' in the wind"Dylan
Pig-Pen
Member
XyZ said:The F-13 is not a stable inbred-line like the original blueberry but it's quasi-hybrid between 2 separately inbred blue lines, so the next generation (F-13xF-13) will give some diversity, also with relatively small plant numbers. suggest you read a bit through the Dj'Short forum, a bit experimentation was already done with this strain (both inbreeding & out-crossing
practice gives the best answer ...good luck with your adventures!
Yeah, I've read through all that. I'm speaking purely in theoretical terms, using the F-13 as a real-world example.
So does it follow that F2's from true F1's should be relatively consistent without selection?
And further that "F2's" made with inbred but not stabilized poly-hybrids (F13xF13, for example), would be equally broad in their variation, regardless of selection?
the F-13 is not a true F1 because the parents (Flo & BBS male) were not so extremely polar like 2 completely diverse landraces (indica & sativa). So in this case with the F-13 example ...selection should be done... rather than random pollination. CharlesX already wrote the whole answer on this question.
happy exploring bro & enjoy the results ...the blues are always something special :wink:
happy exploring bro & enjoy the results ...the blues are always something special :wink:
He's right with them sterile F13 males ... , i grew 30 beans and 20% of the nice statured and smelly males were sterile ... ,
I would suggest an open pollination if there arent much beans [< 25] available to keep all the traits available for selecting in the next gen's ... , but if you have the time , space , beans , etc then plant many ... and select those plants which show the desired traits like stature , smell , resination , gland size/color and whatever you want to then mate them to each other seperately and grow out the progeny in seperate batches ....
good luck and have fun
Fj
I would suggest an open pollination if there arent much beans [< 25] available to keep all the traits available for selecting in the next gen's ... , but if you have the time , space , beans , etc then plant many ... and select those plants which show the desired traits like stature , smell , resination , gland size/color and whatever you want to
then mate them to each other seperately and grow out the progeny in seperate batches ....good luck and have fun
Fj
almostoverit
Member
"There are a number of ways to approach this, depending on your resources in terms of space, and how ambitious you are in getting what you want."
If someone were ambitious enogh, any chance you'd elaborate on the options you refer to? Is this along the lines of seperate cabs, each with filtration sytems? If something like this would work, that seems like a winner to me? WOuldn't be so bad to put together 5-10 boxes nice and filtered, each with a seperate male and several females and strains, and just grow out the results, only to select the male that seemed to be most sucessfull(simplified of course, lots of possibilities for the one considered "most sucessfull)
If someone were ambitious enogh, any chance you'd elaborate on the options you refer to? Is this along the lines of seperate cabs, each with filtration sytems? If something like this would work, that seems like a winner to me? WOuldn't be so bad to put together 5-10 boxes nice and filtered, each with a seperate male and several females and strains, and just grow out the results, only to select the male that seemed to be most sucessfull(simplified of course, lots of possibilities for the one considered "most sucessfull)
almostoverit
Member
almostoverit said:
no one wants to chime in on this???
Yeah dude, that's it, keep the different lines/genarations separate, keep males, flower offspring... I bet it's a lotta work.
I have trouble: keeping 4-5 moms, planting/maintaining outdoors, then there is the feeding, repotting, and trimming.. j/k lol
Select your initial males, label and isolate, make the first crosses, and some test crosses to different strains (just to be sure what each male wants to pass on). Put those males away, grow the crosses, figgure out which males pass what, then start selecting....
I would breed if I had a trust fund, and had unlimited space and time. Until then, it's "Whoa! he STINKS! off to the spare bathroom with ya..."
I have trouble: keeping 4-5 moms, planting/maintaining outdoors, then there is the feeding, repotting, and trimming.. j/k lol
Select your initial males, label and isolate, make the first crosses, and some test crosses to different strains (just to be sure what each male wants to pass on). Put those males away, grow the crosses, figgure out which males pass what, then start selecting....
I would breed if I had a trust fund, and had unlimited space and time. Until then, it's "Whoa! he STINKS! off to the spare bathroom with ya..."
midwest
Active member
Open pollination doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
If your goal is to maintain diversity, than why not use several females and only 1 male instead of the other way around?
That way you can keep the seed batches separate.
So later on in the breeding you will know for sure if you are inbreeding or crossing parallel lines.
If your goal is to maintain diversity, than why not use several females and only 1 male instead of the other way around?
That way you can keep the seed batches separate.
So later on in the breeding you will know for sure if you are inbreeding or crossing parallel lines.
ConceptOfSleep
Active member
This is a thread full of fantastic information... I have several strains that I plan on making F2s of, and Im sure I will be reading, and re-reading this thread before I make any though.
At the moment, the highest on my list is F2s of XyZ's Sour Kush. Since it is fairly close to an F1 (Sour D IBL x Pine Tar Kush), the F2 generation should prove to be very diverse and I think there would be many desireable phenos to be found. Of course I will have to run the Sour Kush more than once to better know the strain, its traits, and what I might hope to acheive in the next generation.
XyZ's comments here will help very much in my work on these, I'm sure!
At the moment, the highest on my list is F2s of XyZ's Sour Kush. Since it is fairly close to an F1 (Sour D IBL x Pine Tar Kush), the F2 generation should prove to be very diverse and I think there would be many desireable phenos to be found. Of course I will have to run the Sour Kush more than once to better know the strain, its traits, and what I might hope to acheive in the next generation.
XyZ's comments here will help very much in my work on these, I'm sure!
M
matthewthecool
Auto AK X Auto KuSh F1
Auto AK X Auto KuSh F1
if i take pollen from a male what is the best way to get it and also how do i keep it seperate only one room Autos but must have seeds F2s. ill just put hepa fillters on my intake 2 the tent or should i just put it on the balcony bc i need lots of seeds so i need to seed a whole lady. Kinda Sucks. Also will i need 2 backcross after i have F2s to keep the Auto gene or just backcross with LR#1 which i also have.
Thanks
Auto AK X Auto KuSh F1
if i take pollen from a male what is the best way to get it and also how do i keep it seperate only one room Autos but must have seeds F2s. ill just put hepa fillters on my intake 2 the tent or should i just put it on the balcony bc i need lots of seeds so i need to seed a whole lady. Kinda Sucks. Also will i need 2 backcross after i have F2s to keep the Auto gene or just backcross with LR#1 which i also have.
Thanks
M
matthewthecool
They dont have a name 4 thhe auto aK & auto kush yet
They dont have a name 4 thhe auto aK & auto kush yet
Help me pick a name. Taliban, landmine, Peacemaker? Little help. Dont want it to sound all violent but im nameing my F2s something. something Cool. Mujahaden? Thats better. Still give me some feedback pls. landmines are quick low to the ground or in it, but they kill kids. so that wont work. Thanks people :
They dont have a name 4 thhe auto aK & auto kush yet
Help me pick a name. Taliban, landmine, Peacemaker? Little help. Dont want it to sound all violent but im nameing my F2s something. something Cool. Mujahaden? Thats better. Still give me some feedback pls. landmines are quick low to the ground or in it, but they kill kids. so that wont work. Thanks people :
