Seeking Critique on Vert Colosseum SOG concept.

[greenmatter]

that glue sounds way better than silicon as far as bond but the one thing i did not even consider is off gassing after you use it. may be really hard to find a solid answer on that one,but it would be well worth looking into.

here is a link (and thanks again) for the prefab corners i was talking about http://www.noblecompany.com/Portals/0/PRODUCT%20INFO/Product%20Descriptions/Corners%20Product%20Decription%20-%20lo%20res.pdf these are PVC. i could not find any in the material you are working with but you will be able to see why they would make things easier on you.
take a look at how shower pan liners are folded,cut and installed on google. how to wrap a corner will apply to what you are doing no matter what materials you use. the name of the game is as few cuts and as few seems as possible

 

[SKAGITMAGIC]

I've saw containment ponds on the Dairy farms around here, useing Gel-Cote, Gel Coat ?? to glue the rubber liner. It's a sort of clear fiberglass resin, that boat industries use on the finish, very waterproof, and good glue!!

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

Hi Anti, your design has definitely evolved for the better. I'm really impressed with this table into which the treepots are inserted.

I have worked with EPDM rubber as a roof cover and surface onto which to glue solar panels. Have worked with ponds and have a 2' x 4' ebb and flow table with an EPDM liner. For the flexible solar panels we had to first apply a solvent to both surfaces and then the contact adhesive. The stuff was expensive. I don't know about bonding EPDM to a wood surface. I'd think you'd need to first paint the wood with a rubberized coating, which is what you'd be doing anyway if you just waterproofed the troughs with an elastomeric roof coating. Pond liners are bomber if you don't cut them. In my ebb and flow table the corners are folded somewhat like Xmas wrapping on a present. If you try cutting and gluing the stuff together like a tailored suit you might run into problems with the seams, and it will be some tricky tailoring to say the least. Looking at what you have now, I'd seriously consider checking out what rubberized goopy roof coatings are available. It should cost you around $20 a gallon.

Good luck with this. We're all looking forward to learning from your mistakes!

 

[Hundred Gram Oz]

Hey man nice looking V-SOG, I'm following alone closely.

 

[Anti]

Hi Anti, your design has definitely evolved for the better. I'm really impressed with this table into which the treepots are inserted.

Thanks, homie!

Looking at what you have now, I'd seriously consider checking out what rubberized goopy roof coatings are available. It should cost you around $20 a gallon.

I wish I knew more about this stuff. Effing pond liner ALONE was $35 bucks for a 7'x10' piece. And to cut it and adhere it to itself I also need the sealant AND interior tape AND exterior tape and there will be so many places (every corner) that need to be sealed... gets real expensive real quick.

So I'm going to go back and return the pond liner and buy $30 worth of this rubberized roofing goop.

Really appreciate this suggestion, but I've repped too many posts today to call yours helpful.

[EDIT: Well, after looking at all the "goop" in the roofing section, I found that all the roofing goop is toxic to living things, so i decided against using it to hold my plants. My next step was to head to the pool supply store, where the guy told me that I should use epoxy which costs $100 a gallon, has to be mixed together and then must be used within an hour of mixing. So I'd have 3/4 of a gallon ($75) going completely to waste.

My next stop was the pond store who had no good answers for me.

So I went with DHF's original solution, I got a gallon of "mildew proof" ultra premium kitchen and bath enamel. It claims one coat coverage, but since I have so much of it, I'll probably do 2 or 3 coats.

The corners and seams have already been sealed with aquarium silicone, so the paint will basically just be to seal the wood and prevent mold/mildew/rot.

What a pain in the ass.[/EDIT]

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

Yeah, with your design of two wooden nesting oval troughs, you'd set yourself up for creating two waterproof doughnut shaped troughs out of the pondliner with tailored cut and glued corners. It seems somewhat daunting. With a rectangular table you can just cover it with a sheet of EPDM, fold the inside corners nicely, and staple the liner around the outside edge of the table. But you have two doughnut tables.

There are rubberized, white, trailer roof coating compounds that might work for you. I recently used a latex based white roof coating to coat the inside of a small ebb & flow table. It was water-based and didn't smell like anything noxious. I haven't tried it out yet though. I think it was called Elastomastic. Snow Coat is another brand I've seen. I just googled "trailer roof coating" and the page that came up looked like a boatload of good info. There were links regarding EPDM on the page.

If you are going to use a paint, you might consider using a penetrating sealer as a primer/undercoat. I've been using ZINSSER PEEL STOP Clear Binding Sealer. It penetrates the wood and is formulated to work as an undercoat for paint. I think it would help prevent the situation where a small slow leak gets the wood soaked underneath and causes the paint to separate from the wood. That's another $20 a gallon though. I've only found it at Ace Hardware.

Best of luck with this.

 

[Anti]

Yeah, with your design of two wooden nesting oval troughs, you'd set yourself up for creating two waterproof doughnut shaped troughs out of the pondliner with tailored cut and glued corners. It seems somewhat daunting. With a rectangular table you can just cover it with a sheet of EPDM, fold the inside corners nicely, and staple the liner around the outside edge of the table. But you have two doughnut tables.

Once upon a time I refinished a guitar amplifier's tolex covering (a synthetic black material that makes a particle-board box with speakers in it look like it's really worth the $1000 they charge you for it.) Having done that, which required all sorts of tricky cuts in order to get it all to look like one uninterrupted piece, I figured I was up to the task.

And if I could use rubber cement or something easy and just bond the shit all together, I would be up to it.

But apparently to bond EPDM liners together you have to clean it, apply an adhesive, apply a strip of tape to the adhesive, apply adhesive to the tape, apply THAT to the next piece of EPDM and then apply an outer strip of tape over the seam with MORE adhesive...

...which would be prohibitively expensive on top of being a total pain in the ass.

Where I'm at is the table is put together with 3" screws, all the seams between walls and corners and etc have been siliconed and four coats of semi-gloss acrylic mildew PROOF bath/kitchen paint have been applied. (Just finished 4th coat.)

I'm gonna run with that for the first round and then take a look at how it's doing and re-evaluate from there.

This build has so far cost me about $2000 (on top of the fact that I had to buy a house to get started) and I'm running out of cash.

(Now, if I had already had a finished basement or another good spot available, it would've only cost about $1000-$1200 so far, but either way, I'm about tapped.)

Once I've harvested, I should have the cash to make any improvements/upgrades necessary, barring a catastrophic failure of the crop.
So... table's all painted up, I'm going to install the E&F stuff this weekend and we'll find out if it's water tight or not.

It's now impossible to see the seams. It almost looks like it was made out of fiberglass.

There are rubberized, white, trailer roof coating compounds that might work for you.

There were about 5 different kinds of rubberized roofing compound and one of the 5 was a white "Elastomer" substance but when I flipped the can around and looked at the warnings, it clearly stated "not safe for drinking water or food."

The same warning was on all the black goo, too.

The guy at the pool store told me that i needed to use the epoxy based pool paint (as opposed to the rubberized kind) because the rubberized ones were toxic to plants. (I told him I was building a pond in my backyard.)

I don't know enough about the subject to know the odds of toxicity and I don't want to roll the dice without knowing those odds.

If you are going to use a paint, you might consider using a penetrating sealer as a primer/undercoat. I've been using ZINSSER PEEL STOP Clear Binding Sealer. It penetrates the wood and is formulated to work as an undercoat for paint.

I like the idea, but I'd have to sand off 4 layers of paint at this point in order to undercoat and repaint. Something to keep in mind for future projects, though.

I sincerely appreciate all of the advice, insight and experience that you guys have brought to this design.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

Sounds like you're on top of things and ready to go. I bet that you'll be using this table/trough set up, as is, several years from now. A wonderful benefit that I found when I finally got my plants off the floor and up on a table, is that it suddenly became easier on my back not having to stoop down so much to work with the plants.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

But apparently to bond EPDM liners together you have to clean it, apply an adhesive, apply a strip of tape to the adhesive, apply adhesive to the tape, apply THAT to the next piece of EPDM and then apply an outer strip of tape over the seam with MORE adhesive...

...which would be prohibitively expensive on top of being a total pain in the ass.

Yeah, If it's the same tape I used on EPDM it would be a real hassle. It consists of a long strip of thick sticky adhesive rolled up in a long plastic strip. You pull the adhesive off the plastic strip like a piece of taffy and somehow apply this thick goo to the EPDM sheet without getting it stuck to you. Turns out this stuff sticks to scissors better than anything else, so you might be able to imagine what it's like trying to accurately make clean cuts in this stuff.

There were about 5 different kinds of rubberized roofing compound and one of the 5 was a white "Elastomer" substance but when I flipped the can around and looked at the warnings, it clearly stated "not safe for drinking water or food."

The same warning was on all the black goo, too.

The guy at the pool store told me that i needed to use the epoxy based pool paint (as opposed to the rubberized kind) because the rubberized ones were toxic to plants. (I told him I was building a pond in my backyard.)

I don't know enough about the subject to know the odds of toxicity and I don't want to roll the dice without knowing those odds.

Whoa. Guess I need to go look closer at the label on the can. I doubt that EPDM is rated for food contact either. Looks like there's a bit of research to be done here. I did once use a rubberized pool paint to seal a damaged shower floor. The stuff was definitely toxic. The fumes were intense and I needed a high powered fan going in the bathroom window to be able to work in that room it was so nasty. The roof coat I used on the ebb/flow table seemed quite benign by comparison. Big ceramic planters are often lined with a black coating which seems tar based. I wonder what food service applications would require a thick rubbery waterproof coating? Seems everything foodish involves plastic or stainless steel containers and surfaces.

Anyway, we're all watching this project with anticipation. I like how the open center in the "table" will allow a fan in the middle. Will your design and grow space allow you to add a third level to your "table" if you want to expand the operation?

Thanks for sharing this project with us.

 

[Anti]

Ok. Got all my drywall today (rented truck for an hour. Made it back with 3 minutes to spare!) I also got confirmation today that my cords/moguls have been shipped and should be here by wednesday.

I've got about 20 plants vegging at the moment so that I can get my clone #s up as quickly as possible. I'm going to throw those 20 plants under the 800w bulbs and let them get their bush on so that I can get 'em big enough to get my 70 clones ready to roll ASAP.

Starting to get a lil excited about it. Can't wait to see what this table can do.

 

[GP73LPC]

can't wait for pics

 

[mrcreosote]

3 lengths (or 4 for a space) of 2x8 across the top middle and 4 pieces on the lower, spaced the same as the existing sides will give you back to back plants in the center utilizing all 4 sides of both lights.

The both lights as they are, are just lighting each other on one side...wasted lumens.

Dammit man, If they're just gonna hang there ...make em work.

Only a cheap bastard like myself would catch that. What you lose, as is, in the center will be weak lit plants traded for close lit plants. 400w's ain't got a lot of depth to 'em

In another life, long ago, I used to build commercial fixtures, most of which time was comprised of saving the top sheet of the designers drawings so it would look like what the customer bought and throwing away the rest of the useless build drawings away and building the stuff sensibly so it could be actually lifted, transported and installed by humans instead of heavy equipment.
And these guys were supposed to be professionals with silly letters after their name.

Don't take me wrong, I'm not being at all critical. It is impressive as is, but maybe the middle deserves a second look. I simply lack proper communication skills. (So everyone tells me...)
Nice job on the design. Looking forward to seeing it in action.

 

[Anti]

3 lengths (or 4 for a space) of 2x8 across the top middle and 4 pieces on the lower, spaced the same as the existing sides will give you back to back plants in the center utilizing all 4 sides of both lights.

The both lights as they are, are just lighting each other on one side...wasted lumens.

Don't take me wrong, I'm not being at all critical.

As it is, I tend to agree with you. One idea I've been tinkering with is to build a very small 2" wide per side diamond shaped reflector that would stand up vertically in the direct center of the table so that the light that would otherwise be aimed directly at the other bulb will be reflected to either side.

I have not mentioned that part of the idea yet, because I was waiting to see how everything comes together, first.

I considered putting a couple rows in the center, and a few others suggested it, but I felt it would be easier to do it this way, and I have seen many vert growers doing something similar with fantastic results.

I think I will go ahead and try to build my diamond reflector just to see if it makes any positive difference. I can always tear it out if it makes things worse.

The penetrative power of 400w lamps was a factor in the size of the table. The table's actual dimensions are 6' long and 2.5' wide at the very outside edge. This means that the plants on the outside middle of the long edge of the table (the plants furthest from either light) will only be 1'7" away from either bulb, and every other plant in the table will be closer than that.

Do you think a plant that is equally 1'7" away from 2 different 400w bulbs will be getting enough light penetration?

At a distance of 2 ft, the bulb is rated to be putting out approximately 8700 (initial) lumens. 1'7" is almost a half a foot cloer to the light than that, and I don't wanna do the math, but it's MORE than 8700 lumens per square foot.

I was under the impression that anything above 5000-6000 lumen/sq ft or 50w/sq ft. was considered "the norm" for optimal penetration.

It is designed to be both.

Let me know if I have misunderstood anything you're saying.

 

[StealthDragon]

man I think the diamond idea is cool...I think cooler would be a discoball on one of those rotary motorized thingies hanging down...ok maybe not a disco ball..but if it was turning, bouncing light at varying angles that would be cool shit....ok I think I'm over-thinking this...damn sativas.

diamond = cool idea.

 

[Anti]

One idea I've been tinkering with is to build a very small 2" wide per side diamond shaped reflector that would stand up vertically in the direct center of the table so that the light that would otherwise be aimed directly at the other bulb will be reflected to either side.

I decided to go ahead and sketchup the "diamond reflector" so that people would have an idea of exactly what I mean by that and then people can put their 2 cents in about it.

My thought is that having it be very small will result in reflecting only the light that would otherwise be aimed at the space directly between the lights.

I'd love everyone's feedback on this concept.

It could be as simple as wood covered in reflectix or as fancy as sheet metal.
​

 

[Anti]

I think cooler would be a discoball on one of those rotary motorized thingies hanging down...

You know, I do have a disco ball and one of those rotary motorized thingies sitting in a box about 10 ft. from me right now. I've had it since I was in college.

Just because you said so, I'm going to try to find a way to mount it in the center of the grow, above the lights at least long enough to get a few pictures to show you. (hell, if I hang it high enough it won't interfere with the direct light and will cause a cool "ghetto light mover" effect on any photons that happen to travel up and hit it.)

Give me a couple of days. Things are coming together quickly now... I've got the drywall up (still needs to be taped and scraped) and the table is almost ready for prime time. I still need to build doors (but I have the hinges and the materials) and I'm going to have one door with a front panel that overlaps the other door by 2"-4" so that there's a complete seal (and no light leak) with the doors closed.

I'll try and get some pictures of current progress either late tonight or sometime tomorrow.

Damn this shit is fun.

 

[Anti]

the plants on the outside middle of the long edge of the table (the plants furthest from either light) will only be 1'7" away from either bulb, and every other plant in the table will be closer than that.

I need to apologize for a small mistake. I was measuring it out in sketchup just to illustrate the differences and I discovered that the outside edges of the table (the four upper tier corners) are the furthest point from the light at almost exactly 2 ft.

I added a visual measurement of the two areas in question so you can see what I'm talking about.

I also decided to measure from the center of the bulb (instead of the edge of the bulb) so it shows 1'8" in the middle, instead of 1'7" as previously stated.

But either way, the BACK of the plant that is furthest from the light is still getting 53w per sq. ft.

​

 

[greenmatter]

You know, I do have a disco ball and one of those rotary motorized thingies sitting in a box about 10 ft. from me right now. I've had it since I was in college.

Just because you said so, I'm going to try to find a way to mount it in the center of the grow, above the lights at least long enough to get a few pictures to show you. (hell, if I hang it high enough it won't interfere with the direct light and will cause a cool "ghetto light mover" effect on any photons that happen to travel up and hit it.)

Give me a couple of days. Things are coming together quickly now... I've got the drywall up (still needs to be taped and scraped) and the table is almost ready for prime time. I still need to build doors (but I have the hinges and the materials) and I'm going to have one door with a front panel that overlaps the other door by 2"-4" so that there's a complete seal (and no light leak) with the doors closed.

I'll try and get some pictures of current progress either late tonight or sometime tomorrow.

Damn this shit is fun.

PIMP MY GROW..... the Anti edition ..... think about it man.... killer bud under a disco ball..... post some pics, your grow could go viral!

 

[Anti]

PIMP MY GROW..... the Anti edition ..... think about it man.... killer bud under a disco ball..... post some pics, your grow could go viral!

Heh. I'd be satisfied with Pic of the Month.

 

[greenmatter]

Heh. I'd be satisfied with Pic of the Month.

HELL YEAH ! ... being a wanna-be is fucking cool if you wanna-be laylow!