Just throw an air stone in there. That will keep it from getting stagnant, and it will be good for the plant too.
root stopping fabric
- Thread starter HUGE
- Start date
This I have thought about. And still might try. But requires purchase of pump and airstones then modify the system o take ti. Would this hybrid dwc ebb & flo outperform high frequency waterings?
SRGB
Member
HUGE:
"thank you for the post much appreciated.
the reason i dont want roots growing into the bottom container is there is about 1/2 inch of stagnant water that sits down there even with the buchets raised. this isnt a problem if i reduce my waterings to 3 per day and let those bottom roots suck up all that water before the next flood.
in veg that bottom area is a complete mass of roots by week 4-5. then into the tubes after that. thats fine cuz thats about when i transplant. the roots have filled up the bottom of the 5 gals by about week 5 of flower. i usually have to start dialing the watering frequency back at week 4 to 3 a day instead of 6 a day to prevent bad conditions down there.
my thought is that with an ebb and flow system the primary bennafit is the frequent wet dry cycles bringing in copious amounts of fresh air to the roots and an almost constant food supply. if you feel i am wrong in this presumption please correct me but the main objective i have is to keep the roots from resting in standing water.
option 2 is redesigning the buckets to be more like the sentinal system with a bottom drain but i thought just throwing a copper root stopping disk down there would work great."
Hi, HUGE.
Roots that rest in stagnant water should do well, as long as the stagnant water is shallow. A 1/2 inch of water should be used by the roots within a day and a half, or 24-36 hours.
It is difficult to guage exactly how deep a given shallow reservoir should be, without
1) being familiar with that particular cultivar, or cultivars;
2) knowing the RH, or VPD and air flow rate and exchange of that particular garden area.
Each cultivar uptakes water and transpires at its own rate. Some plants or trees can easily double in size during a 10 day span, while others may remain dwarfs throughout their entire cycle.
The cultivar that doubles in size, generally, will transpire more, because it has amassed a larger canopy, which expels more water than a dwarf plant with less foliage and canopy mass.
Constant air flow over the tops of the plants or trees should help carry away the water that the plant uptakes from the roots. It will also force the plant to draw up more water, as the air surrounding the canopy becomes drier from the constant air flow.
The above is in general. The specific art is to actually measure how much each plant or tree is uptaking over a day, week and month; and then, only provide that amount of water for those days, weeks and months. All environmental conditions remaining the same.
The frequency of the waterings seems less important than the total volume of water given during a given span - for that particular cultivar.
An extreme example would be to compare watering a succulent to watering a rapidly growing rose. If they are being fed the same amount daily, then the succulent may quickly become over-watered. Whilethe rose may produce new shoots and foliage that can expel the water uptaken from the wet bottoms of the containers.
While watering does bring in some oxygen, it does not compare to having open-sided, or, open-walled containers. Open-walled containers, or, containers that have holes for gas exchange, will allow the plant or tree to use the environmental air flow of the garden area itself for aeration. The same air that flows over the canopy, carrying away transpired water, will permeate the walls of the container, and allow gas exchange to occur in the media, or root zone. When the media, or root zone is exposed to constant environmental air flow, it permits the roots to synthesize this oxygen, while still being able to uptake the shallow 1/2 of water from below. The water in the bottom will also evaporate at a more rapid rate, decreasing the level moreso than if there were no holes for environmental aeration.
A simple solution to increase the level of oxygen in your existing set-up would be to drill holes around the entire top 1/2 of the outer bucket, and around the entire inner bucket. This will help environmetal air flow into the outer bucket, and into the inner bucket; it will also help evaporate some of the moisture that accumulates right after a flood cycle.
Ideally, to verify exactly how much water a given cultivar will use per a given span, a gardener can feed once per day, at whatever rate he choose - generally 1/5-1/8 of the volume of the plant-holding container - and see how much of that water is present in the bottom after 24-36 hours. If the basin is damp to dry, that amount of water is what should be fed to the plant or tree, for the entire cycle; adjusting by small increments, such as an ounce, plus or minus, during stages of bloom where the curve of consumption may dramatically increase over 2-3 weeks. If the basin is still wet, then increase air flow into the buckets (through the holes), and, or, decrease the amount of moisture provided over that span. This amount of water provided can be divided over several watering per day (ebb and flow), or given a single time per day. It is up to the gardener.
What is important, and the general goal, is that the total amount of water given equals the total amount of wter used (uptaken, transpired) by the plant or tree. Plants seem to prefer a constant source of water below (sub-irrigation), while having access to oxygen at the top 1/2-1/3 of their root zones.
Stagnant water is alright, as long as the root zone has constant access to oxygen. Root tips, the youngest, rapidly growing parts of the roots, are the physical material that requires the most water. The top portion of the roots prefer the most oxygen. Given a constant source of shallow water, the top portion (2/3 - 1/2) of the root zone, and media, can be almost dry, and the plant or tree should thrive.
There are examples in nature. Many trees will grow their roots above ground, parallel to the surface, when they could easily just grow straight down into the earth. Even on the sides of cliffs, one may observe a thick root system seeming to grow out of rocks, when it could just as easily not expose itself to the wind by growing down into the rocks. The roots, at least the part closest to the truck, and closest tothe surface, prefers oxygen to water.
Your presumption is correct. Roots want air and water. However, stagnant water is alright, as long as it is not so much that the plant or tree cannot move it up and disperse it through their leaves over a given period. When there is too much water, the roots can literally drown, if not enough oxygen is present. That oxygen can be provided by the regular air flow of the area, if the walls of the container allow passgae of that air. A light, non-compacting medium, such as perlite, helps with aeration, too.
To answer your question, try creating a watering regime where there is that same 1/2 inch of water maintained constantly. If the cultivar doesn't use it over a day, then don't feed again until it is just a damp film. Drilling holes in the inner and out buckets should help increase total oxygen content in the media and root zone. Stagnant water is alright, but pouring more stagnant water on top of existing stagnant water, can lead to over-watering.
The goal is to find exactly how much water your plants or trees actually use, not how much can be delivered through automation. This requires checking the actual levels per 24-36 hours, without concern for a cycle timer, or other timed-delivery methods. Just the time that the plant itself is on. The plant will provide you with the data about precisely how much water it uses over a given period. The plant will not suffer or perish if it is only fed when the level in the outer bucket becomes damp to dry. It will actually prefer the increased oxygen level and thrive, when watered, or fed only when needed, not to excess.
You may find that the plant requires less water than previously delivered, by simply observing how much it uptakes from a sub-irrigated system, or, from the run-off.
The goal is to not waste any water, or nutrients, whatsoever. And to provide only what the plant actually needs, not a pre-deterimed rate of application or volume. This can be done, and should result in overall healthier plants and trees.
Square Root(TM) Garden Bags are specifically designed to provide aeration through environmental air flow, with the ability to use run-off as sub-irrigation water, thus, conserving water (our most precious resource) and eliminating the need for automated oxygen or water delivery. Just water once per day, and the plant or tree will be aerated and have access to constant moisture.
Hope this helps.
/SRGB/
"thank you for the post much appreciated.
the reason i dont want roots growing into the bottom container is there is about 1/2 inch of stagnant water that sits down there even with the buchets raised. this isnt a problem if i reduce my waterings to 3 per day and let those bottom roots suck up all that water before the next flood.
in veg that bottom area is a complete mass of roots by week 4-5. then into the tubes after that. thats fine cuz thats about when i transplant. the roots have filled up the bottom of the 5 gals by about week 5 of flower. i usually have to start dialing the watering frequency back at week 4 to 3 a day instead of 6 a day to prevent bad conditions down there.
my thought is that with an ebb and flow system the primary bennafit is the frequent wet dry cycles bringing in copious amounts of fresh air to the roots and an almost constant food supply. if you feel i am wrong in this presumption please correct me but the main objective i have is to keep the roots from resting in standing water.
option 2 is redesigning the buckets to be more like the sentinal system with a bottom drain but i thought just throwing a copper root stopping disk down there would work great."
Hi, HUGE.
Roots that rest in stagnant water should do well, as long as the stagnant water is shallow. A 1/2 inch of water should be used by the roots within a day and a half, or 24-36 hours.
It is difficult to guage exactly how deep a given shallow reservoir should be, without
1) being familiar with that particular cultivar, or cultivars;
2) knowing the RH, or VPD and air flow rate and exchange of that particular garden area.
Each cultivar uptakes water and transpires at its own rate. Some plants or trees can easily double in size during a 10 day span, while others may remain dwarfs throughout their entire cycle.
The cultivar that doubles in size, generally, will transpire more, because it has amassed a larger canopy, which expels more water than a dwarf plant with less foliage and canopy mass.
Constant air flow over the tops of the plants or trees should help carry away the water that the plant uptakes from the roots. It will also force the plant to draw up more water, as the air surrounding the canopy becomes drier from the constant air flow.
The above is in general. The specific art is to actually measure how much each plant or tree is uptaking over a day, week and month; and then, only provide that amount of water for those days, weeks and months. All environmental conditions remaining the same.
The frequency of the waterings seems less important than the total volume of water given during a given span - for that particular cultivar.
An extreme example would be to compare watering a succulent to watering a rapidly growing rose. If they are being fed the same amount daily, then the succulent may quickly become over-watered. Whilethe rose may produce new shoots and foliage that can expel the water uptaken from the wet bottoms of the containers.
While watering does bring in some oxygen, it does not compare to having open-sided, or, open-walled containers. Open-walled containers, or, containers that have holes for gas exchange, will allow the plant or tree to use the environmental air flow of the garden area itself for aeration. The same air that flows over the canopy, carrying away transpired water, will permeate the walls of the container, and allow gas exchange to occur in the media, or root zone. When the media, or root zone is exposed to constant environmental air flow, it permits the roots to synthesize this oxygen, while still being able to uptake the shallow 1/2 of water from below. The water in the bottom will also evaporate at a more rapid rate, decreasing the level moreso than if there were no holes for environmental aeration.
A simple solution to increase the level of oxygen in your existing set-up would be to drill holes around the entire top 1/2 of the outer bucket, and around the entire inner bucket. This will help environmetal air flow into the outer bucket, and into the inner bucket; it will also help evaporate some of the moisture that accumulates right after a flood cycle.
Ideally, to verify exactly how much water a given cultivar will use per a given span, a gardener can feed once per day, at whatever rate he choose - generally 1/5-1/8 of the volume of the plant-holding container - and see how much of that water is present in the bottom after 24-36 hours. If the basin is damp to dry, that amount of water is what should be fed to the plant or tree, for the entire cycle; adjusting by small increments, such as an ounce, plus or minus, during stages of bloom where the curve of consumption may dramatically increase over 2-3 weeks. If the basin is still wet, then increase air flow into the buckets (through the holes), and, or, decrease the amount of moisture provided over that span. This amount of water provided can be divided over several watering per day (ebb and flow), or given a single time per day. It is up to the gardener.
What is important, and the general goal, is that the total amount of water given equals the total amount of wter used (uptaken, transpired) by the plant or tree. Plants seem to prefer a constant source of water below (sub-irrigation), while having access to oxygen at the top 1/2-1/3 of their root zones.
Stagnant water is alright, as long as the root zone has constant access to oxygen. Root tips, the youngest, rapidly growing parts of the roots, are the physical material that requires the most water. The top portion of the roots prefer the most oxygen. Given a constant source of shallow water, the top portion (2/3 - 1/2) of the root zone, and media, can be almost dry, and the plant or tree should thrive.
There are examples in nature. Many trees will grow their roots above ground, parallel to the surface, when they could easily just grow straight down into the earth. Even on the sides of cliffs, one may observe a thick root system seeming to grow out of rocks, when it could just as easily not expose itself to the wind by growing down into the rocks. The roots, at least the part closest to the truck, and closest tothe surface, prefers oxygen to water.
Your presumption is correct. Roots want air and water. However, stagnant water is alright, as long as it is not so much that the plant or tree cannot move it up and disperse it through their leaves over a given period. When there is too much water, the roots can literally drown, if not enough oxygen is present. That oxygen can be provided by the regular air flow of the area, if the walls of the container allow passgae of that air. A light, non-compacting medium, such as perlite, helps with aeration, too.
To answer your question, try creating a watering regime where there is that same 1/2 inch of water maintained constantly. If the cultivar doesn't use it over a day, then don't feed again until it is just a damp film. Drilling holes in the inner and out buckets should help increase total oxygen content in the media and root zone. Stagnant water is alright, but pouring more stagnant water on top of existing stagnant water, can lead to over-watering.
The goal is to find exactly how much water your plants or trees actually use, not how much can be delivered through automation. This requires checking the actual levels per 24-36 hours, without concern for a cycle timer, or other timed-delivery methods. Just the time that the plant itself is on. The plant will provide you with the data about precisely how much water it uses over a given period. The plant will not suffer or perish if it is only fed when the level in the outer bucket becomes damp to dry. It will actually prefer the increased oxygen level and thrive, when watered, or fed only when needed, not to excess.
You may find that the plant requires less water than previously delivered, by simply observing how much it uptakes from a sub-irrigated system, or, from the run-off.
The goal is to not waste any water, or nutrients, whatsoever. And to provide only what the plant actually needs, not a pre-deterimed rate of application or volume. This can be done, and should result in overall healthier plants and trees.
Square Root(TM) Garden Bags are specifically designed to provide aeration through environmental air flow, with the ability to use run-off as sub-irrigation water, thus, conserving water (our most precious resource) and eliminating the need for automated oxygen or water delivery. Just water once per day, and the plant or tree will be aerated and have access to constant moisture.
Hope this helps.
/SRGB/
all great information. and again thanks for posting in the thread.
i have already done the calculations for the holding capacity of my medium and the daily uptake of the plants. i did this using the formulas provided by canna stats. it suggested flooding every 1.5 hours. this in my opinion ois a little excessive but my plants do seem to use 3-5 gal of water per day and the dehumidifier seems to pick up a similar ammount. the media is all hydroton so the holding capacity is rather low. i usually start at every 2 hours for week 1. then every 3 till week 4 or 5 then just 3 a day to account for the plants now having access to that res in the bottom bucket.
where i am losing you is from my reading specifically heath robinsons work it seems the roots turn cordy and less fine when constantly exposed to air. this is why in his systems he keeps the water level in his undercurrents verry high and the plant gets most its air from the rushing highly oxygenated water.
whats happening in my system is as the roots find that res in the bottom i have to dial the watering back so much that most the media itself and the majority of the root mass is completely dry and only that mass in the bottom has access to water. ideally i wanted to have the entire rootmass to have the same access to water all the time. not have the top 3/4 dry out while the bottom 1/4 rests in a puddle. i think it is a less than efficent use of an ebb and flow bucket system.
i have already done the calculations for the holding capacity of my medium and the daily uptake of the plants. i did this using the formulas provided by canna stats. it suggested flooding every 1.5 hours. this in my opinion ois a little excessive but my plants do seem to use 3-5 gal of water per day and the dehumidifier seems to pick up a similar ammount. the media is all hydroton so the holding capacity is rather low. i usually start at every 2 hours for week 1. then every 3 till week 4 or 5 then just 3 a day to account for the plants now having access to that res in the bottom bucket.
where i am losing you is from my reading specifically heath robinsons work it seems the roots turn cordy and less fine when constantly exposed to air. this is why in his systems he keeps the water level in his undercurrents verry high and the plant gets most its air from the rushing highly oxygenated water.
whats happening in my system is as the roots find that res in the bottom i have to dial the watering back so much that most the media itself and the majority of the root mass is completely dry and only that mass in the bottom has access to water. ideally i wanted to have the entire rootmass to have the same access to water all the time. not have the top 3/4 dry out while the bottom 1/4 rests in a puddle. i think it is a less than efficent use of an ebb and flow bucket system.
SRGB
Member
HUGE:
"all great information. and again thanks for posting in the thread.
i have already done the calculations for the holding capacity of my medium and the daily uptake of the plants. i did this using the formulas provided by canna stats. it suggested flooding every 1.5 hours. this in my opinion ois a little excessive but my plants do seem to use 3-5 gal of water per day and the dehumidifier seems to pick up a similar ammount. the media is all hydroton so the holding capacity is rather low. i usually start at every 2 hours for week 1. then every 3 till week 4 or 5 then just 3 a day to account for the plants now having access to that res in the bottom bucket.
where i am losing you is from my reading specifically heath robinsons work it seems the roots turn cordy and less fine when constantly exposed to air. this is why in his systems he keeps the water level in his undercurrents verry high and the plant gets most its air from the rushing highly oxygenated water.
whats happening in my system is as the roots find that res in the bottom i have to dial the watering back so much that most the media itself and the majority of the root mass is completely dry and only that mass in the bottom has access to water. ideally i wanted to have the entire rootmass to have the same access to water all the time. not have the top 3/4 dry out while the bottom 1/4 rests in a puddle. i think it is a less than efficent use of an ebb and flow bucket system."
Hi, HUGE.
Thanks.
Do you mean that each plant is using 3-5 gallons of water per day? Those must be some 8-10 foot trees!
Or, do you mean that the total volume used, for x-amount of plants, is 3-5 gallons per day?
Yes, the dehumidification process is a good way to measure transpiration. Generally, the plants should transpire the input in roughly 24-36 hours, as long as the air flow is constant and the light levels are high.
Perlite is a very good medium. It permits drainage, holds water, and has excellent porosity for high oxygen availability.
You do have a point about the top roots growing cord-like when exposed to more oxygen. However, this is not necessary a bad thing, as long as the bottom (youngest, rapidly growing) root tips have acess to water. The top roots will grow in girth and mass, much like a tree whose roots grow underneath a sidewalk, and up to expose themselves to surface air. The bottom roots will continue to grow fine, fish-bone-like appendages. This haapens whether the plant is grown hand-watered, or in SWC, or DWC.
Member Heath Robinson has mastered their art, over a span of some time. They have developed a comfort zone with their techniques and made meaningful contributions to the community. We don't want to review their work, or methods. Heath Robinson's thread speaks for itself. We can only post our methods and techniques. Please review each, and others' work, and find the data that will help to enhance your own garden.
We have not found that the formation of cord roots, emerging from the trunk, and primary root ball, to be negative. They create the anchor for the plant or tree, and become hardened and callous. They seem to prefer oxygen, and don't need much, if any water at all. This is advantageous, if there is a constant water source below. Those top cord-like roots seem to be able to assimilate oxygen, and are positioned on the plant so that they can access that oxygen easier than the lower, fine, fish-bone-like root tips.
The entire root mass does not need access to water, only those rapidly-growing root tips. The top 2/3 of the root mass does not need constant water, as long as there is a constant source below. Maybe this approach is different than other methods' technical data, but that is what we have found experimenting with Square Root(TM) Bags. In fact, we have found that less moisture in the top 2/3 - 1/3 of the root-zone is advantageous. Generally, plants seem to prefer just as much oxygen as water, or more oxygen than water - as long as the roots have constant access to a well-balanced, slightly acid ph (5.0-5.5) nutrient solution. The plants are just healthier, generally. Over-watering seems to be an issue with many gardens; basically suffocating and drowing roots in containers and root environments that don't allow sufficent gas exchange.
We'll post 2 pictures from a thread in our sub-forum. The roots that are visible out side of the Square Root(TM) Bag are literally growing into thin air. They grew out of the side walls of the SRBGB, and down into the shallow basin of accumulated run-off from simple hand-watering. The pictures should illustrate the fact that plant roots will grow into thin air, without any moisture present. They sought the oxygen in the environment outside of the Square Root(TM) Bag. The roots on the bottom were constantly in contact with that same run-off. The roots that grew out of the side walls eventually grew down to the thin film of run-off where the rest of the bottom roots were growing.
The pictures illustrate the progression of roots growing out of the sides and bottom of a 1 liter Square Root(TM) Bag. The first 3 pictures are of a plants' roots starting to grow through the Square Root(TM) Bag. The last 4 pictures show how the roots have fully grown through all sides and bottom of the Square Root(TM) Bag, to the point that the 1 liter Square Root(TM) Bag is barely even visible underneath the roots; both cord-like and fine.
Once the roots reached sufficent mass, outside of the 1 liter Square Root(TM) Garden Bag, they were placed into a 5 gallon Square Root(TM) Bag, and eventually a 20 Gallon Square Root(TM) Bag. The roots grew through both the inner 1 liter and 5 gallon Square Root(TM) Garden Bags, reaching a shallow basin of run-off (approximately 1 inch), after growing through the 20 gallon SRBGB. Much of the root mass is not shown, as it was in the 20 gallon SRBGB, and matted in the shallow basin of run-off below.
They were fed once (1x) per day, only until run-off, or, roughly 32 ounces per day, after being placed into the 20 gallon Square Root(TM) Bags. Bothe the 1 liter and 5 gallon Square Root(TM) Bags were never removed from the root mass, and were simply placed into larger Square Root(TM) Bags, eliminating transplanting altogether. Medium: 45% perlite, 45% pumice, 10% coco coir. Although 100% pumice, or 100% perlite work well, too.
In the last 4 pictures, the roots have grown through all sides and bottom of the Square Root(TM) Bag. the 1 liter Square Root(TM) Bag is underneath those roots, and barely visible. In pictures 4, 5 and 6, the bottom of the trunk of the tree is slighly visible, to illustrate the girth of the stalk (approximately 2 1/2 -3 inch diameter).
We are not attempting to say our method or product is the best. Only that we have designed our product to perform in a specific manner, and we believe that it does do what we claim it does: 1) Provide superior aeration to the root-zone; 2) eliminates transplanting; 3) conserves water when used as recommended; 4) scalable to be used in most systems, including ebb and flow, NFT, SWC, DWC, and soilless gardening; and 5) easy to use, wash, store, and re-use.
(We'll include 2 of the 7 pictures from the sub-forum in this post, just to make it easier to refer to the above descriptions. If you want the pictures removed, just post. We could loosely call these pictures 'before' and 'after'; though the roots have already grown through the first picture, they were just beginning to do so.)
Cultivar: 'Heavenly bamboo', or, Nandina.
From:
Square Root™ Brand Garden Bag - Roots Gallery
Picture #3 from the above link:
Picture # 6 from the above link:
(Top picture: 1 liter Square Root(TM) Brand Garden Bag (early root growth through the SRBGB). Bottom picture: Same 1 liter Square Root(TM) Garden Bag (portion of resulting root mass on the outside of the 1 liter SRBGB). Roots eventually grew through 2 further layers of media and Square Root(TM) Bags (5 gallon and 20 gallon, respectively), finally reaching and matting in a shallow basin of run-off nutrient solution.
Yes, there is a 1 liter Square Root(TM) Bag underneath the mass of roots on the immediate outer walls and bottom of the 1 liter SRBGB in the second picture. Most of the roots extending from that central mass are not pictured; roots grew through the several layers of media and larger Square Root(TM) Bags surrounding the 1 liter SRBGB, reaching a shallow basin of run-off accumulated from daily hand-watering.
The top portion of the root mass was not kept wet; the roots that grew out of the 20 gallon SRBGB into the shallow basin supplied the water for the plant, as they were only pour-hand-watered once per day. There was an approximately 2 inch space, or rise, between the bottom of the 20 gallon SRBGB, and the pan of the shallow basin, or trough. Roots grew down between the space between the 20 gal. SRBGB, into the run-off, and drew up that run-off, leaving the basin dry with 24-36 hours. The roots did not perish by being exposed to only oxygen between the bottom of the 20 gal. SRBGB and the bottom of the basin. This fact led us to understand that roots do not wither and perish when exposed to, or grown in only air - as long as the root tips are in contact with a water source.
The plant was never over-watered, nor under-watered. There was never any nutrient solution dumped, as the plant used every ounce of water supplied to it, before it was watered again (in 24-36 hours). Thus, we have eliminated extraction-transplanting, conserved resources (water and nutrient salts), and applied the optimal (precise) amount of nutrient solution to the plant, culminating in a healthy root system, foliage and plant, and a zero-waste garden.
After the cycle, simply brush and snip off the dried roots from the inside and outside of the SRBGB's, machine wash, drip dry, fold and store in a drawer, shelf, or tote; eliminating bulky buckets or other rigid containers occupying space in the gardening area, after use.)
Hope this helps.
/SRGB/
"all great information. and again thanks for posting in the thread.
i have already done the calculations for the holding capacity of my medium and the daily uptake of the plants. i did this using the formulas provided by canna stats. it suggested flooding every 1.5 hours. this in my opinion ois a little excessive but my plants do seem to use 3-5 gal of water per day and the dehumidifier seems to pick up a similar ammount. the media is all hydroton so the holding capacity is rather low. i usually start at every 2 hours for week 1. then every 3 till week 4 or 5 then just 3 a day to account for the plants now having access to that res in the bottom bucket.
where i am losing you is from my reading specifically heath robinsons work it seems the roots turn cordy and less fine when constantly exposed to air. this is why in his systems he keeps the water level in his undercurrents verry high and the plant gets most its air from the rushing highly oxygenated water.
whats happening in my system is as the roots find that res in the bottom i have to dial the watering back so much that most the media itself and the majority of the root mass is completely dry and only that mass in the bottom has access to water. ideally i wanted to have the entire rootmass to have the same access to water all the time. not have the top 3/4 dry out while the bottom 1/4 rests in a puddle. i think it is a less than efficent use of an ebb and flow bucket system."
Hi, HUGE.
Thanks.
Do you mean that each plant is using 3-5 gallons of water per day? Those must be some 8-10 foot trees!
Or, do you mean that the total volume used, for x-amount of plants, is 3-5 gallons per day?
Yes, the dehumidification process is a good way to measure transpiration. Generally, the plants should transpire the input in roughly 24-36 hours, as long as the air flow is constant and the light levels are high.
Perlite is a very good medium. It permits drainage, holds water, and has excellent porosity for high oxygen availability.
You do have a point about the top roots growing cord-like when exposed to more oxygen. However, this is not necessary a bad thing, as long as the bottom (youngest, rapidly growing) root tips have acess to water. The top roots will grow in girth and mass, much like a tree whose roots grow underneath a sidewalk, and up to expose themselves to surface air. The bottom roots will continue to grow fine, fish-bone-like appendages. This haapens whether the plant is grown hand-watered, or in SWC, or DWC.
Member Heath Robinson has mastered their art, over a span of some time. They have developed a comfort zone with their techniques and made meaningful contributions to the community. We don't want to review their work, or methods. Heath Robinson's thread speaks for itself. We can only post our methods and techniques. Please review each, and others' work, and find the data that will help to enhance your own garden.
We have not found that the formation of cord roots, emerging from the trunk, and primary root ball, to be negative. They create the anchor for the plant or tree, and become hardened and callous. They seem to prefer oxygen, and don't need much, if any water at all. This is advantageous, if there is a constant water source below. Those top cord-like roots seem to be able to assimilate oxygen, and are positioned on the plant so that they can access that oxygen easier than the lower, fine, fish-bone-like root tips.
The entire root mass does not need access to water, only those rapidly-growing root tips. The top 2/3 of the root mass does not need constant water, as long as there is a constant source below. Maybe this approach is different than other methods' technical data, but that is what we have found experimenting with Square Root(TM) Bags. In fact, we have found that less moisture in the top 2/3 - 1/3 of the root-zone is advantageous. Generally, plants seem to prefer just as much oxygen as water, or more oxygen than water - as long as the roots have constant access to a well-balanced, slightly acid ph (5.0-5.5) nutrient solution. The plants are just healthier, generally. Over-watering seems to be an issue with many gardens; basically suffocating and drowing roots in containers and root environments that don't allow sufficent gas exchange.
We'll post 2 pictures from a thread in our sub-forum. The roots that are visible out side of the Square Root(TM) Bag are literally growing into thin air. They grew out of the side walls of the SRBGB, and down into the shallow basin of accumulated run-off from simple hand-watering. The pictures should illustrate the fact that plant roots will grow into thin air, without any moisture present. They sought the oxygen in the environment outside of the Square Root(TM) Bag. The roots on the bottom were constantly in contact with that same run-off. The roots that grew out of the side walls eventually grew down to the thin film of run-off where the rest of the bottom roots were growing.
The pictures illustrate the progression of roots growing out of the sides and bottom of a 1 liter Square Root(TM) Bag. The first 3 pictures are of a plants' roots starting to grow through the Square Root(TM) Bag. The last 4 pictures show how the roots have fully grown through all sides and bottom of the Square Root(TM) Bag, to the point that the 1 liter Square Root(TM) Bag is barely even visible underneath the roots; both cord-like and fine.
Once the roots reached sufficent mass, outside of the 1 liter Square Root(TM) Garden Bag, they were placed into a 5 gallon Square Root(TM) Bag, and eventually a 20 Gallon Square Root(TM) Bag. The roots grew through both the inner 1 liter and 5 gallon Square Root(TM) Garden Bags, reaching a shallow basin of run-off (approximately 1 inch), after growing through the 20 gallon SRBGB. Much of the root mass is not shown, as it was in the 20 gallon SRBGB, and matted in the shallow basin of run-off below.
They were fed once (1x) per day, only until run-off, or, roughly 32 ounces per day, after being placed into the 20 gallon Square Root(TM) Bags. Bothe the 1 liter and 5 gallon Square Root(TM) Bags were never removed from the root mass, and were simply placed into larger Square Root(TM) Bags, eliminating transplanting altogether. Medium: 45% perlite, 45% pumice, 10% coco coir. Although 100% pumice, or 100% perlite work well, too.
In the last 4 pictures, the roots have grown through all sides and bottom of the Square Root(TM) Bag. the 1 liter Square Root(TM) Bag is underneath those roots, and barely visible. In pictures 4, 5 and 6, the bottom of the trunk of the tree is slighly visible, to illustrate the girth of the stalk (approximately 2 1/2 -3 inch diameter).
We are not attempting to say our method or product is the best. Only that we have designed our product to perform in a specific manner, and we believe that it does do what we claim it does: 1) Provide superior aeration to the root-zone; 2) eliminates transplanting; 3) conserves water when used as recommended; 4) scalable to be used in most systems, including ebb and flow, NFT, SWC, DWC, and soilless gardening; and 5) easy to use, wash, store, and re-use.
(We'll include 2 of the 7 pictures from the sub-forum in this post, just to make it easier to refer to the above descriptions. If you want the pictures removed, just post. We could loosely call these pictures 'before' and 'after'; though the roots have already grown through the first picture, they were just beginning to do so.)
Cultivar: 'Heavenly bamboo', or, Nandina.
From:
Square Root™ Brand Garden Bag - Roots Gallery
Picture #3 from the above link:
Picture # 6 from the above link:
(Top picture: 1 liter Square Root(TM) Brand Garden Bag (early root growth through the SRBGB). Bottom picture: Same 1 liter Square Root(TM) Garden Bag (portion of resulting root mass on the outside of the 1 liter SRBGB). Roots eventually grew through 2 further layers of media and Square Root(TM) Bags (5 gallon and 20 gallon, respectively), finally reaching and matting in a shallow basin of run-off nutrient solution.
Yes, there is a 1 liter Square Root(TM) Bag underneath the mass of roots on the immediate outer walls and bottom of the 1 liter SRBGB in the second picture. Most of the roots extending from that central mass are not pictured; roots grew through the several layers of media and larger Square Root(TM) Bags surrounding the 1 liter SRBGB, reaching a shallow basin of run-off accumulated from daily hand-watering.
The top portion of the root mass was not kept wet; the roots that grew out of the 20 gallon SRBGB into the shallow basin supplied the water for the plant, as they were only pour-hand-watered once per day. There was an approximately 2 inch space, or rise, between the bottom of the 20 gallon SRBGB, and the pan of the shallow basin, or trough. Roots grew down between the space between the 20 gal. SRBGB, into the run-off, and drew up that run-off, leaving the basin dry with 24-36 hours. The roots did not perish by being exposed to only oxygen between the bottom of the 20 gal. SRBGB and the bottom of the basin. This fact led us to understand that roots do not wither and perish when exposed to, or grown in only air - as long as the root tips are in contact with a water source.
The plant was never over-watered, nor under-watered. There was never any nutrient solution dumped, as the plant used every ounce of water supplied to it, before it was watered again (in 24-36 hours). Thus, we have eliminated extraction-transplanting, conserved resources (water and nutrient salts), and applied the optimal (precise) amount of nutrient solution to the plant, culminating in a healthy root system, foliage and plant, and a zero-waste garden.
After the cycle, simply brush and snip off the dried roots from the inside and outside of the SRBGB's, machine wash, drip dry, fold and store in a drawer, shelf, or tote; eliminating bulky buckets or other rigid containers occupying space in the gardening area, after use.)
Hope this helps.
/SRGB/
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yes i mean the entire room is doing 3-5 gal a day. 7x12 canopy
from what i understand, you are saying the way my system is now will work better than what im trying to build. you may very well be right as i have had very good results so far. i may try drilling some holes in the inner bucket an a few at the top of the outer as i like your idea of constant ventillation. thats why i keep my moms in smartpots/srbags. thank you for the enlightenment.
from what i understand, you are saying the way my system is now will work better than what im trying to build. you may very well be right as i have had very good results so far. i may try drilling some holes in the inner bucket an a few at the top of the outer as i like your idea of constant ventillation. thats why i keep my moms in smartpots/srbags. thank you for the enlightenment.
fourandtwenty
Member
the recycleable shopping bag idea suggested earlier works.the roots won't be able to grow through it like they do with most materials. It is basically the same material as the root control mats sold with the autopot system. I lost one of my root control mats and simply made another by cutting up an old shopping bag.
p.s. an autopot system may suit you as it is basically a bottom feeding ebb and flow system that works really well because the smart valve enables like 99% of the water/nutes to be used before the next cycle, which makes root rot very unlikely. Plus you can grow large plants with relatively small pots and root mass....no risk of becoming rootbound...feed the ladies exactly the right amount of nutes/water....hehe I sound like i work for the company!! (I don't)
grow hard or grow home!
