Reversing/selfing an elite male to create regular seeds

[MJPassion]

Identical is obviously impossible. S1 isn't identical either PS.

If you want identical; clone the damn thing LOL!!

I think it's a common misconception that S1 produces identical stock.

I agree...
However,
In the absence of related paternal inputs, S1s will be much closer to identical to the desired parent than will a bx or 2 or 3 or etc.

I too prefer regular male female breeding but I am not opposed to growing & using well produced FEM stock as parental inputs.

FEM is just as natural, in the field, as M/F breeding pairs. In this regard, FEM plants become a part of natures selections.

 

[dank.frank]

I trip out how few growers keep males. I have a male stable.

The term "elite" is just a CA circulated cut term. Elite clones are often anomalies. Many are Bagseed.

And are certainly not true breeding.

So an "elite male" is a BS term. "True Breeding" male is more like it.

I prefer XY crosses when ever possible. I would just use a great male for regs and BX. After after a few gens take stock to F2. Then hunt that line. You will find plants identical to daddy. Provided you crack enough of them.

But I do find the topic interesting.

True breeding is almost a bigger joke, ESPECIALLY when discussing a plant whose modern self is poly x poly x poly x poly.

True Breeding - can really only be determined across a wide enough population to determine what characteristics are actually surfacing and with what frequency. The same as dominant and recessive. Minimum of 2,000 siblings.

To be even more precise, true breeding FOR WHAT? It is HIGHLY unlikely that you will find a plant who is actually true breeding for more than one desired trait. This is how we got hybrids in the first place. Combining landrace genetics that possessed certain desirable individual traits.

I think, what you are asking is nothing more than a passing thought you are trying to find validity for.

The best way to utilize a male, if you want to do something cutting edge, is to use molecular breeding techniques, specifically, marker assisted selection. This is the only shortcut path to finding an elite male. Everything else is time, numbers, and LUCK.



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

However,
In the absence of related paternal inputs, S1s will be much closer to identical to the desired parent than will a bx or 2 or 3 or etc.

Not true. This is mostly because people have no idea when and why to utilize a BC to a previous parent. NO BC line is finished. It is a step. If the line is not carried out sufficient generations after a BC, you'll have just as much variation as you started with. Only, in the mix of that variation, are more recognizable features, in a higher frequency. That is not the same thing as increased stability.

You are making your statement based on the notion of not having combined any external DNA in an S1. The fact is though, the amount of variation in an S1 is reflective of the parent. If you self a plant and find it has dozens of expressions, the likelihood of you ever being able to "stabilize" that plant so it is true to itself from seed is...ZERO.

Market forces and economic influences are driving the cannabis industry just as they always have. These forces control what breeders are willing to produce, simply because this is where the demand is. There is always going to be money to make giving people what they think they want, regardless of what is actually BEST in terms of genomic advancement within the plant species. Perfectly pretty round red tomatoes that, oops, taste like crap. Perfect example of such ignorance, where market forces (greed) dictated quality and naturally what suffered?

You think the legal cannabis market is any different now that truly BIG INC. is involved? We still have better cannabis in the east coast black market than Colorado does in it's storefronts.

The reality is, I define "elite" by a completely different standard than the conventional one. To me, an elite, is a plant that when bred, produces better offspring than itself. There are many plants that smoke great and deserve attention in the grow room, but less than 10% of these are actually worth anything in terms of providing unique genetic markers that aren't already present in every other crazy poly hybrid mashup. Why do you think Sam went back to trying to find landrace genes for genetic assay?

In many ways, regardless of the name, there are really only about a dozen different genomic clusters in modern cannabis, that equate to EVERYTHING we consume.



dank.Frank

 

[mushroombrew]

True breeding is almost a bigger joke, ESPECIALLY when discussing a plant whose modern self is poly x poly x poly x poly.

True Breeding - can really only be determined across a wide enough population to determine what characteristics are actually surfacing and with what frequency. The same as dominant and recessive. Minimum of 2,000 siblings.

To be even more precise, true breeding FOR WHAT? It is HIGHLY unlikely that you will find a plant who is actually true breeding for more than one desired trait. This is how we got hybrids in the first place. Combining landrace genetics that possessed certain desirable individual traits.

I think, what you are asking is nothing more than a passing thought you are trying to find validity for.

The best way to utilize a male, if you want to do something cutting edge, is to use molecular breeding techniques, specifically, marker assisted selection. This is the only shortcut path to finding an elite male. Everything else is time, numbers, and LUCK.



dank.Frank

Hmm I think you missed my point. A good male passes on a trait/s consistently to his offspring. And that is close to impossible with American polys. Although I have seen some great line breeding done lately. Selfing a poly male is futile imo.

Dutch has plenty of stable "true breeding" males.

 

[MJPassion]

Thanks for the comments d.f.

Why do you say "no bx is complete"?

There are a bunch being sold as such.

 

[dank.frank]

The Dutch do, yes. But that is in part because many of those are isolated from landrace gene pools or true F1 monohybrids.

It's not impossible. There just isn't anyone willing to dedicate 20 years of their life to a single strain anymore because it simply isn't profitable.

Well, there are some of us getting focused. Personally, I think true breeding, open pollinated cannabis is possible. Difficult. But possible. What most people fail to realize, seeds like this change the industry. It becomes a true agricultural commodity then. Where hundreds of acres can be planted and yield estimates can be insured based on number of plants in the ground. Just like tobacco.



dank.Frank

 

[bestothebest]

MJP I believe Nevil had an NL5 line he had taken to bx8. Ninety nine percent of the Bx lines on the market are at most a Bx three or four, and many just bx two. That is not enough to get a true genotype of the clone. The plant phenotype may appear to be the same, but it will not breed as well as the clone. Nevil also mentioned that selecting the male once you get past bx4 becomes more important than the number of backcrosses. To make a real backcrossed line, you would want to bx4 a line using the closest males, then test multiple males of each, and its potential, bx a few more times doing this, and inbreed a generation or two. If a breeder were to do something like this, it would take years. It simply is not worth it to a breeder.

 

[dank.frank]

Thanks for the comments d.f.

Why do you say "no bx is complete"?

There are a bunch being sold as such.

THE ONLY REASON to do a BC: - is because you have line bred the genetics to a point of bottleneck in pursuit of isolating a single trait and now you need to restore genetic variation.

Backcrossing increases the frequency in which gene traits are repeated. It does not technically reduce variation, it reintroduces it. If the line wasn't taken many generations and bottled necked before a backcross is made, you are simply compounding variation.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=333736



dank.Frank

 

[mushroombrew]

Some good insight frank. Thanks for your input.

What I find interesting is most make hybrids in the hopes of improving traits. Very little "work" being done to existing lines. Cross after cross after cross.

I do test chucks. Open the lines. And then repeat the promising ones. Then line breed for one trait at a time.

My question to you is would you suggest a BX at some point? To avoid bottlenecking?

 

[Karma G]

I see a bx being bigger chance of creating a collapse then line breeding. One on one breeding is bigger risk aswell for bottlenecking in line breeds.

Its all in the base of your genepool. Filial generation only show whats done.


Ps nevils nl5 was a clone he recieved. No breeding done at all. Thats miss info.

A bx8 is not somthing i advice if asked.


A example

Make a bx with line A can come out good while

Line B be total opisite .

Its all in the starting stabilty of your starting seed batch.

Selection . And testing is only way in my eyes. Differnt cases need differnt planing.

I have seen the results of the biker male crosses overtime and in the big pop at greenhouse. And the comparison to many others work.


Spend time on your male.s is what im a true believer in.

Cant breed with anything if you havent grown and seen the genepool.
With todays clone sharing that is somthing most dont do.

Example cheese cut. Who has grown the seed batch that came out of ? That would have given so much knolidge on the dominat traits etc etc. Before starting.
Now we need to grow the hybrids out and start from there to see what the clone gives off.

 

[Mate Dave]

I see a bx being bigger chance of creating a collapse then line breeding. One on one breeding is bigger risk aswell for bottlenecking in line breeds.

Its all in the base of your genepool. Filial generation only show whats done.


Ps nevils nl5 was a clone he recieved. No breeding done at all. Thats miss info.

A bx8 is not somthing i advice if asked.


A example

Make a bx with line A can come out good while

Line B be total opisite .

Its all in the starting stabilty of your starting seed batch.

Selection . And testing is only way in my eyes. Differnt cases need differnt planing.

I have seen the results of the biker male crosses overtime and in the big pop at greenhouse. And the comparison to many others work.


Spend time on your male.s is what im a true believer in.

Cant breed with anything if you havent grown and seen the genepool.
With todays clone sharing that is somthing most dont do.

Example cheese cut. Who has grown the seed batch that came out of ? That would have given so much knolidge on the dominat traits etc etc. Before starting.
Now we need to grow the hybrids out and start from there to see what the clone gives off.

I spoken with nev a few times. He did infact breed NL#5 as his cut had already superseded the Seattle Greg's clone by the time he received it. NL is said to be an exceptional Hawiian Male x as they were better then the Afghans at that time.

Backcrossing is one of the best tools if done correctly. With 8 seperate 1-1 full sib crosses you can then start to 1/2 sib & lock down 8 Traits & make a synthetic line of Monohybrids with better COI..

 

[mushroombrew]

Are you suggesting 8 lines?

 

[Mate Dave]

Once you have your 1-1's you can then go Fem them & put a male across more DNA. Not before till you have made a dioecious line. You would have '1 breed' but multiple parallel lines to avoid any mixups with polygeneric inheritance. If you make 8 crosses one is usually the 'bomb' under trials. When selling the seed you then can keep the Best genetics & sell something that is usefull to the grower but not the hard work that you selected for You pass them OP or Fem's, one of the lesser sires spanked on a few of the 1-1 mums that he ain't neciserraly the pair for. You can do it with a single reocouring mum & 8 dads or with 8 full unique 1-1 matings whichever works. Anyway I won't sidetrack or derail the thread any more other then saying unless you inbreed you can't outbreed. By that I mean unless your gonna make & grow crosses forever & not stabilise any traits 'did you find anything worth breeding further' & can you? This is what makes a breeders genetics special the selection of his her's breeding plants. Nobody's going anywhere without doing it dioecious first.

 

[dank.frank]

Some good insight frank. Thanks for your input.

My question to you is would you suggest a BX at some point? To avoid bottlenecking?

I don't think of bottlenecking as a bad thing. Lack of genetic variation is by default the definition of stability. I think of it as a necessary tool for getting rid of undesired specimen.

So yes. I do suggest Bx'ing, but only when a couple things happen: you achieve the desired outcome, you hit inbreeding depression, or latent gene traits begin to resurface.

It wasn't within the context of the discussion, but personally, I think the better option is isolating plants from within the same family line that are truly dominant for specific traits. Then selective inbreeding each of those separate sibling lines. Then incrossing to recombine traits. With each new inclusion, you have more inbreeding towards stabilization of the new trait.

The goal is to combine in a single variety an improved combination of desirable traits from the parental germplasm. Not to make a reproduction of something that already exists - ie - "Who has the best cookies in seed form?"



dank.Frank

 

[MJPassion]

THE ONLY REASON to do a BC: - is because you have line bred the genetics to a point of bottleneck in pursuit of isolating a single trait and now you need to restore genetic variation.

Backcrossing increases the frequency in which gene traits are repeated. It does not technically reduce variation, it reintroduces it. If the line wasn't taken many generations and bottled necked before a backcross is made, you are simply compounding variation.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=333736



dank.Frank

Thank you for the reminder.
I've read that before. I'll have to re-read that link & a few others to refresh the ol thinker.

 

[OG.Gotti]

Great read.. Thx everybody...

 

[jack hairy]

as you are backcrossing with the normal feminine goal, the males you pick later become more important because they feature the improvements made each generation, then taking it back to the mother.

but with the male centric breeding, its the female that you have to pick from each new generation. so which pick do you think is easier to make correctly? since we are after the female form in the end, seems like it would be nice to view the exact product at each stage.

 

[non]

interesting stuff. one "elite" that i'd like to see reversed would have to be soma's g13xhaze-male. anyone done it?

 

[dc2569]

Where is a good database of some of the bext males that fathered modern day genetics?
What are some good strainsa to search for these males other than blueberry, NL, and Haze?