Real-life comparison (LED vs MH)

[etinarcadiaego]

LED GIRL, what are your thoughts on the following:

I don't want to get in the middle of anything, I just want to share my thought with everyone.

I've been following LEDs closely for a while, I knew it was coming long ago, as I'm sure many of you did. At first I saw the purplish hue of the light and chuckled, thinking people must be downright idiots to buy into LED . . .

But little by little I saw results, not with cannabis, primarily with leafy veggies like lettuce and cabbage grown hydroponically. The results weren't astounding, but they were there . . .

Now I had a chance to meet a man (and a company) growing under an LED side by side with a 400 watt halide. He's been doing this "demo" in his storefront since April, I don't want to reveal the store or it's location, as this is a not an MMJ friendly state and I'd rather have people think me a liar than give away too much info . . . .

Anyways, its right there in the store front, and has been for a little under a year. I talked to the owned of the establishment recently regarding what he thought about LEDs and their future in horticulture and he told me that there are some immense benefits to LED. First is no wasted light, all the light emitted is within the plants usable spectrum. We all know this. He said the lifespan of the diodes is outstanding, very long life and very reliable performance, greatly outlasting any HID bulb as well as florescents . . . we knew this also. He said there is less heat produced with LEDS and that it typically flows right out the top of the fixture, although he did say it was more heat than he expected . .. but still less than HID.

He said it had drawbacks also, like lumens per watt was less far than impressive, but again all usable to the plants. He also said you had to keep the fixture very close to see growth rates comparable to the MH (which was placed 24" away) but that if you did so growth was excellent.

Our conversation lasted maybe 25 minutes and we spent the last of it talking about the future and his honest thoughts. He told me LEDs are great for people who can't afford the heat, that they are a great alternative and definitely a viable option, but for people who can control the heat and have a history with HID we may not get quite the results we've come to expect - it's just not quite the same he said.

He said that if he dropped the 400 MH lamp down to less than 15" and cooled it with an aircooled hood it outperformed the LEDs substantially, which makes sense because of the inverse square law, right? So that's a no brainer, but still you can't get the LEDs closer than what they were, meaning the LED system is fixed in that at point-blank in compared to 400 watt halide system about 2 feet away, but move the halide closer, and BAM, out-performs LEDs considerably . . . (again this is obvious, right?)

He said the main drawback is intensity. The amount of diodes required to equal a MH that is placed closer than 18" is still a little larger in total "area" than he'd like, meaning the fixture has such a large "footprint" that it's simply not possible to get the same amount of LED light to fall in a given area as HID light (provided you drop the HID down lower), and that given than fact HIDs will outperform LEDs until some technological change allowing more lumens per watt of LED light.

These are all his thoughts and experiences, not mine, I just wanted to share them as this guy was a very knowledgeable individual with a great deal of experience. He said that he still thinks LED will have role in the future and may even BE the future, adding that he had no crystal ball, and that in the long term not having to replace the diodes (or ballast, or bulbs) as well as reduced wattage because of more PAR light per watt aids in making the cost of an LED more realistic . . . but that right now, with what's currently available, it's cheaper to to cool an HID light and keep it closer than to invest in LED, and he said his experience in doing so has shown significantly better results with the HID . . . but with the HID not cooled and 24" away the results favored the LEDs . . .

 

[LEDGirl]

He said it had drawbacks also, like lumens per watt was less far than impressive, but again all usable to the plants. He also said you had to keep the fixture very close to see growth rates comparable to the MH (which was placed 24" away) but that if you did so growth was excellent.

Lumens are a measurement directly related to how bright a light is to us. It really has nothing to do with plants, even though LED mfr's rate their products in lumens. It is true that HID is currently producing more lumens per watt vs LED, although 1W white diodes are quickly closing the gap and should surpass the mighty HID within 1-2 years. With that being said, white light isn't what's important, as it's nowhere near as efficient at growing plants as targeted light. So it's hard to compare the two when they work so differently at the photosynthetic level. For example, does a 140 lumen per watt HID produce at least 45 lumens per watt of 640nm red? Or how about 30 lumens of 660nm red? We'll soon find out after we get our new machine.

Our conversation lasted maybe 25 minutes and we spent the last of it talking about the future and his honest thoughts. He told me LEDs are great for people who can't afford the heat, that they are a great alternative and definitely a viable option, but for people who can control the heat and have a history with HID we may not get quite the results we've come to expect - it's just not quite the same he said.

HID's have been used by indoor gardeners for 40+ years. People have built gardens around their inefficiencies, and learned how to grow with them. Switching to LED and expecting to have amazing results right away, would be like a newbie HID grower having those same expectations. Even experienced guys are learning on their first grow with LED, that watering cycles, ambient temps, etc... are all a bit different now. It takes a few cycles to get used to LED, but even beginners with our products are hitting .7-.9 grams per watt, which is what most experienced HID growers average. As gardeners build their gardens around LED, utilizing even canopies, insulated grow areas to retain heat, screens, etc... you will see 1.5-2 grams per watt being reported by a lot of people. As the efficiency of LED's increases, these values will continue to rise.

He said that if he dropped the 400 MH lamp down to less than 15" and cooled it with an aircooled hood it outperformed the LEDs substantially, which makes sense because of the inverse square law, right? So that's a no brainer, but still you can't get the LEDs closer than what they were, meaning the LED system is fixed in that at point-blank in compared to 400 watt halide system about 2 feet away, but move the halide closer, and BAM, out-performs LEDs considerably . . . (again this is obvious, right?)

This is all subjective, as there are far too many variables at play here. Summarizing all LED Grow Lights into a singular category is a big mistake, as we are proving with our side by side grow tests against other manufacturers. Just because it's LED doesn't mean they all work the same. A lot of companies use orange in their lights even though it has little to no effect on photosynthesis. A lot of companies use a 120 degree LED, which is 4x dimmer than our 60 degree LED's. Some companies fail to give you both red and blue outputs that plants require for photosynthesis. So while I don't doubt for one second that he beat his LED system with the HID properly equipped, I highly doubt he would see the same end result if he were using our products. Also, our LED's can go up to 12" and still produce nice colas... they certainly don't need to be right on top of the plants like the ones he's using.

He said the main drawback is intensity. The amount of diodes required to equal a MH that is placed closer than 18" is still a little larger in total "area" than he'd like, meaning the fixture has such a large "footprint" that it's simply not possible to get the same amount of LED light to fall in a given area as HID light (provided you drop the HID down lower), and that given than fact HIDs will outperform LEDs until some technological change allowing more lumens per watt of LED light.

This is likely due to them using a 120 degree lens, which disperses the LED light over a broader area. I do disagree with you though, as you haven't made a single comment yet relating to a watt for watt comparison, you simply state HID is more efficient which is certainly not true. If you had 400W of LED vs 400W of HID, they could both cover the same area effectively. The 400W of LED will outperform the 400W of HID by a long shot.

Anyhow thanks for your input, and I hope my responses have been informative enough. You may want to tell your friend to try out some new tech that has scientific backing. We divulge our light output, spectral output, light intensity, and the reason why we build our products the way we do, which is something I have yet to see from another LED manufacturer. All those little differences add up in the end, which is why you see higher gram per watt ratings from our light vs companies like ProSource, or soon to lose against us: Haight Solid State. We've had calls from stores retailing HIDHut and Sunshine Systems LED Lights, telling us that our lights drastically outperform their brands as well. These aren't the only brands we've been compared against, and in every situation our lights came out on top

 

[etinarcadiaego]

This is likely due to them using a 120 degree lens, which disperses the LED light over a broader area. I do disagree with you though, as you haven't made a single comment yet relating to a watt for watt comparison, you simply state HID is more efficient which is certainly not true. If you had 400W of LED vs 400W of HID, they could both cover the same area effectively. The 400W of LED will outperform the 400W of HID by a long shot.

Can you fit 400 watts of LED info 3.5' x 2.5'? The fixture he used took up 100% of the square footage available?

CAn you PM me with your phone number, I'd like to discuss this further with you (over the phone) if possible?

 

[etinarcadiaego]

Most of what you said . . . gardeners are getting great results, our lights are brighter than the competition, big fat colas 12" away, is all great, but can you provide some specs for me?

Can you provide me with specs for your largest wattage LED that would fit into 3.5' x 2.5' (in terms of lumens). I know all about lumens and plant-usable lighting (PAR, etc) . . . so provide me with your specs in either specification, that would be fine - just something an individual can use to comparatively measure the two.

Lumens are a measurement directly related to how bright a light is to us. It really has nothing to do with plants, even though LED mfr's rate their products in lumens. It is true that HID is currently producing more lumens per watt vs LED, although 1W white diodes are quickly closing the gap and should surpass the mighty HID within 1-2 years. With that being said, white light isn't what's important, as it's nowhere near as efficient at growing plants as targeted light. So it's hard to compare the two when they work so differently at the photosynthetic level. For example, does a 140 lumen per watt HID produce at least 45 lumens per watt of 640nm red? Or how about 30 lumens of 660nm red? We'll soon find out after we get our new machine.



HID's have been used by indoor gardeners for 40+ years. People have built gardens around their inefficiencies, and learned how to grow with them. Switching to LED and expecting to have amazing results right away, would be like a newbie HID grower having those same expectations. Even experienced guys are learning on their first grow with LED, that watering cycles, ambient temps, etc... are all a bit different now. It takes a few cycles to get used to LED, but even beginners with our products are hitting .7-.9 grams per watt, which is what most experienced HID growers average. As gardeners build their gardens around LED, utilizing even canopies, insulated grow areas to retain heat, screens, etc... you will see 1.5-2 grams per watt being reported by a lot of people. As the efficiency of LED's increases, these values will continue to rise.



This is all subjective, as there are far too many variables at play here. Summarizing all LED Grow Lights into a singular category is a big mistake, as we are proving with our side by side grow tests against other manufacturers. Just because it's LED doesn't mean they all work the same. A lot of companies use orange in their lights even though it has little to no effect on photosynthesis. A lot of companies use a 120 degree LED, which is 4x dimmer than our 60 degree LED's. Some companies fail to give you both red and blue outputs that plants require for photosynthesis. So while I don't doubt for one second that he beat his LED system with the HID properly equipped, I highly doubt he would see the same end result if he were using our products. Also, our LED's can go up to 12" and still produce nice colas... they certainly don't need to be right on top of the plants like the ones he's using.



This is likely due to them using a 120 degree lens, which disperses the LED light over a broader area. I do disagree with you though, as you haven't made a single comment yet relating to a watt for watt comparison, you simply state HID is more efficient which is certainly not true. If you had 400W of LED vs 400W of HID, they could both cover the same area effectively. The 400W of LED will outperform the 400W of HID by a long shot.

Anyhow thanks for your input, and I hope my responses have been informative enough. You may want to tell your friend to try out some new tech that has scientific backing. We divulge our light output, spectral output, light intensity, and the reason why we build our products the way we do, which is something I have yet to see from another LED manufacturer. All those little differences add up in the end, which is why you see higher gram per watt ratings from our light vs companies like ProSource, or soon to lose against us: Haight Solid State. We've had calls from stores retailing HIDHut and Sunshine Systems LED Lights, telling us that our lights drastically outperform their brands as well. These aren't the only brands we've been compared against, and in every situation our lights came out on top

What stores did you get those calls from? Can I call them for more info? Please provide me with their contact information.

That store owner isn't my friend or acquaintance, just a business conducting a side by side, to my knowledge he doesn't grow cannabis, but I think you and he should talk more, how would he get in touch with you? (Outside of ICMAG that is)

 

[LEDGirl]

Can you fit 400 watts of LED info 3.5' x 2.5'? The fixture he used took up 100% of the square footage available?

CAn you PM me with your phone number, I'd like to discuss this further with you (over the phone) if possible?

2 of our 205W panels would be 410W of LED's, and they measure 19" x 38" stacked end to end. They would most certainly fit within a 40" x 30" area. My phone # is on our website

Can you provide me with specs for your largest wattage LED that would fit into 3.5' x 2.5' (in terms of lumens). I know all about lumens and plant-usable lighting (PAR, etc) . . . so provide me with your specs in either specification, that would be fine - just something an individual can use to comparatively measure the two.

What stores did you get those calls from? Can I call them for more info? Please provide me with their contact information.

If I gave you calculations on our models right now, they would only be estimates. I had all of our lumen, lux, and PAR data for all of our lights prior to the 2nd generation models coming out. Since they came out, China has been extremely busy and is now on vacation (or I'd have my #'s again). I plan on ordering a device next week which will allow us to take exact readings from all of our products, so I can supply you with raw data instead of relying on them. So I'm sorry it's not available right now, but it will be again in the very near future.

As per the store owner who retailed HIDHut and Sunshine Systems, I'm not sure he would want calls coming in from ICMag left and right to ask him about his opinion. It's a similar situation to most users on the board, as they don't want their personal information sent out where everyone has it. So instead I will leave you with his testimonial statement:

"Hello!

I have been using my light (126 watt panel) for two-ish weeks now and have to say it kicks butt! So far it is much better than the Sunshine Systems and Hidhut's lights that I sell...great work.

I have a question about the hanging system - is there shorter version (I would like to lift it up a bit more) or can I convert it to be used with some sort of screw in hook / eye (not sure I am explain this well but hopefully you get the point…). It’s being tested in a height restricted area and could use several more inches."

We went on to speak over the phone, and he is now recommending customers who wish to purchase LED Grow Lights, to our company.

 

[etinarcadiaego]

2 of our 205W panels would be 410W of LED's, and they measure 19" x 38" stacked end to end. They would most certainly fit within a 40" x 30" area. My phone # is on our website


If I gave you calculations on our models right now, they would only be estimates. I had all of our lumen, lux, and PAR data for all of our lights prior to the 2nd generation models coming out. Since they came out, China has been extremely busy and is now on vacation (or I'd have my #'s again). I plan on ordering a device next week which will allow us to take exact readings from all of our products, so I can supply you with raw data instead of relying on them. So I'm sorry it's not available right now, but it will be again in the very near future.

Interesting info - $700/205watt panel is up there, but do you think prices will come down anytime in the near future? One more question for you, as I've mentioned before I like LED and I understand the science behind it, but do you think that there will be any significant improvements in the technology in the near future that will be benefit waiting to make a purchase? I'd love to do a side by side, and $700 though pricey is do-able, I'm just wondering if any big improvements in the technology are currently in the works (that you know of)?

 

[LEDGirl]

Interesting info - $700/205watt panel is up there, but do you think prices will come down anytime in the near future? One more question for you, as I've mentioned before I like LED and I understand the science behind it, but do you think that there will be any significant improvements in the technology in the near future that will be benefit waiting to make a purchase? I'd love to do a side by side, and $700 though pricey is do-able, I'm just wondering if any big improvements in the technology are currently in the works (that you know of)?

We've made many significant improvements to our technology vs the products offered by some of our competitors (Haight solid state and procyon are just two examples). These improvements allow our lights to out perform the competition in grams per watt, and often in yield, using far less power. It took us two years of continuous developing to make our first production model, and we've tweaked it slightly since then but are almost at the peak of where we can take this technology to, until we get our new equipment. Our 2nd generation lights came out providing higher efficiency than our 1st generation lights, but only by a small percentage. Likewise, I think any other changes we make to our design in the coming years will provide minimal improvements at best. Once you add up the 5% here and 10% there though, we may be able to end up with a light that's 30% better than our original, but this kind of development takes time.

So as far as waiting to purchase lights from us, I would say it's not going to make a lot of difference if you do. With other companies who are currently playing catch up, their products should be much better in another year compared to what they are now, but even then they may not be as efficient as ours are currently. The only thing that will make a significant change to the possibility with these types of lights, are the LED's themselves. Since they are a chip-based product, much like computers, you can assume that they will produce more and more light per watt for every year they are produced. Eventually all technologies come to a peak, but I think LED's will some day surpass 200 lumens per watt with white, and hopefully 100 lumens per watt with red.